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Author Topic: Dual Wielding Pistols?  (Read 36084 times)

sirg

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 08:13:41 pm »
Tbh I don't like much the idea of dual pistols, but I don't want this feature removed.

However, a professional soldier part of an elite organization will probably never dual wield pistols. That's cool if you make a game with cowboys and outlaws, or maybe gangsters. It's a cool thing you see in action movies.
A professional soldier will always preffer the accuracy of a single pistol instead of twice the damage but inaccurate. You can't really aim using 2 pistols, unless you have 2 independent heads or something :)

Surrealistik

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 09:00:30 pm »
Quote
Talking specifically about the laser pistol, you still wouldn't be able to see where you were aiming the infrared laser beam without looking through the pistol scope or other vision enhancer. Aiki-Knight is entirely correct -- the lack of recoil doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll have accuracy considerably lower than an ordinary handgun of any variety due to lack of line-of-sight aiming and lack of a two-handed grip, accuracy which is already pretty poor due to you firing a handgun and not a rifle. And now you're now using two hands to fire two handguns suboptimally when you could be using them to fire a laser rifle optimally, thereby eliminating the only battlefield advantage pistols have over rifles, which is that they can be fired one-handed.

According to the game mechanics he is not, unless there is a tremendous degredation of accuracy; the firepower provided by two simutaneously firing laser pistols is superior to that of one laser rifle. That said, despite the lack of perfect LoS aiming, at least passable accuracy should be possible by aligning the two pistols simutaneously in front of one's eyes. I've used light guns at range in this manner (roughly typical of average engagement ranges in urban combat), and while my ability to hit especially small targets was not the best, man sized targets were typically not a problem.

Aiki-Knight

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 09:41:13 pm »
Yes, there's no need to remove the feature; I just humbly suggest that two-handed firing is usually more trouble than help. Even if a sidearm were truly one-hand-only operated, it's just not accurate to shoot them together. Yes, you could shoot two at once, and a decent shooter could hit a target, but really, even an expert shooter wouldn't. Yes, this game has close-quarters combat, but most police shootouts occur within 7 meters. That's right, 7 meters. Close enough to qualify as close combat? Yet no police officer wields two weapons simultaneously, because it's already hard enough to win close-quarters shootouts with the accuracy bonus of a single, eye-level aimed sidearm in the hands of a well-trained police officer (I've never heard of special forces dual-wielding sidearms, either. I'm no expert on special forces, but can anyone substantiate otherwise?). After all, it's not who fires the most shots, but rather who brings rounds on target the quickest. One well-placed shot to the centre of body mass or between the eyes is going to win over a hail of bullets roughly on target (if even that), especially against enemies who are heavily armored.

The only application I think think of for wielding dual pistols is when no larger weapons (or ammo) are available, and one needs to lay down cover fire at short range. Otherwise, a single rifle in infinitely superior to dual pistols. More power, and just WAY more accuracy.

Of course, we're forgetting this: how many truly ambidextrous shooters are there out there? Should special forces operators spend all their time honing their dual-pistol-wielding skills just in case? Most shooters are side-biased. I'm a right-hand shooter. Could I do it left-side? Maybe. Do it well, in the stress of close-quarters combat? I seriously doubt it. No, actually, I know I couldn't.

Surrealistik

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 09:55:56 pm »
Quote
Yes, there's no need to remove the feature; I just humbly suggest that two-handed firing is usually more trouble than help. Even if a sidearm were truly one-hand-only operated, it's just not accurate to shoot them together. Yes, you could shoot two at once, and a decent shooter could hit a target, but really, even an expert shooter wouldn't. Yes, this game has close-quarters combat, but most police shootouts occur within 7 meters. That's right, 7 meters. Close enough to qualify as close combat? Yet no police officer wields two weapons simultaneously, because it's already hard enough to win close-quarters shootouts with the accuracy bonus of a single, eye-level aimed sidearm in the hands of a well-trained police officer (I've never heard of special forces dual-wielding sidearms, either. I'm no expert on special forces, but can anyone substantiate otherwise?). After all, it's not who fires the most shots, but rather who brings rounds on target the quickest. One well-placed shot to the centre of body mass or between the eyes is going to win over a hail of bullets roughly on target (if even that), especially against enemies who are heavily armored.

I completely agree with you in so far as weapons with signifigant recoil are concerned, but in the absence of that, dual wielding with appreciable accuracy, and thus plausibility, becomes possible.


Quote
The only application I think think of for wielding dual pistols is when no larger weapons (or ammo) are available, and one needs to lay down cover fire at short range. Otherwise, a single rifle in infinitely superior to dual pistols. More power, and just WAY more accuracy.


Specifically concerning dual laser pistols versus a single laser rifle, the former features a lot more firepower. While the accuracy of dual wielded laser pistols is clearly inferior to that of a single laser rifle this discrepancy would not be such that dual wielding would not have a situational use for close quarters/urban combat.

Offline Winter

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 12:04:03 am »
According to the game mechanics he is not, unless there is a tremendous degredation of accuracy; the firepower provided by two simutaneously firing laser pistols is superior to that of one laser rifle. That said, despite the lack of perfect LoS aiming, at least passable accuracy should be possible by aligning the two pistols simutaneously in front of one's eyes. I've used light guns at range in this manner (roughly typical of average engagement ranges in urban combat), and while my ability to hit especially small targets was not the best, man sized targets were typically not a problem.

Then that's nothing more than a balancing error and the weapons in question need to be reworked to make the rifle appreciably superior to dual pistols.

Regards,
Winter

sirg

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 08:56:20 am »
I don't see how using 2 pistols with alot of accuracy loss will be better than using any other rifle or pistol in a normal fashion, unless you come up with some very powerful close range pistols. I wouldn't waste a soldier wearing 2 pistols just for the cool factor. He'll probably get killed while being cool.

But, I would suggest making dualwielding kerrblades or other melee weapons viable.

Surrealistik

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 10:58:52 pm »
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Then that's nothing more than a balancing error and the weapons in question need to be reworked to make the rifle appreciably superior to dual pistols.

The rifle would be superior anyways at medium/long ranges with existing stats, assuming a realistic degredation of accuracy with respect to dual wielded laser pistols. Dual pistols would have only a situational close range application.

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2008, 11:34:07 am »
Twin pistols being more effective that a rifle, even at close range, is counter to logic.

If that were the case, then instead of the pistol the production shops would be creating weapons that were 2 laser-pistol focusing arrays in the same case, even if the resulting weapon were of similar size to the SMG.  All the power of 2 pistols, without any loss of accuracy.  It could even be lighter than the pistols, as it may only need a single power pack (albeit one that would be drained twice as fast)




Surrealistik

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2008, 06:13:13 pm »
Well to be completely honest, the damage values of the laser weapons are admittedly silly, given that they do more damage than plasma weaponry contrary to design intentions (and what reality might suggest).

Anyways, there might be technical issues and limitations which prevent the synergy of dual focusing arrays in that manner. Not being accomplished in laser physics, I won't pretend to know what those are, but it is a possibility.

Juni Ori

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2008, 12:25:59 pm »
I have been thinking when would it be in place to wield two pistols? Only answer I have come up with is two entrances to the room you are in, which you can both see and thus react faster to suppress your enemy. In general cqb-style barrel aim does not help much when you have two pistols to aim into same general direction. First shots may go close to the target, but after that it's lottery. Considering that barrel aim reduces the accurate fire distance, plus possible other factors making it more difficult, I'd say it would be very difficult to hit an target over ten meters away. Again: first shots.

I'd rather see that depending on the strenght of the soldier he could aim single handedly heavier weapon (such as rifle or shotgun - try it, it is possible), while doing something else with other hand. Reloading, taking a grenade, using something... Strenght/weight issue would of course affect the accuracy. And again: first shot. Second would be impossible to aim effectively. So, put simply, imo something in other hand should reduce accuracy of the first shot and exponentially after that. Though MP5 can be fired in bursts when supporting it only to your shoulder and the fire is still relatively accurate. Though nothing compared to when other hand is supporting.

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2008, 03:44:21 pm »
Bah. You're over-analyzing this. It's a game!
If someone wants to dual-wield, let him. Heck, even JA2 had dual-wielding!

Offline shevegen

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2008, 08:39:43 pm »
I recently played Fallout 2 again, and you can actually wield 2 Sniper rifles (one in each hand)
and shoot twice during one combat round. I found this unrealistic because I normally picture one
sniper rifle being wielded with both hands at least, so if we talk about realism, sometimes
even commercial games did make bad design decisions. You could fire both sniper rifles in one
round :-)

By the way, not wanting to digress but there could be a new fire mode "fire both pistols
at same target" which could result in one "dual shot" at a slightly higher damage and hit
rate than firing only one.

hotdog

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2008, 08:01:17 am »
I recently played Fallout 2 again, and you can actually wield 2 Sniper rifles (one in each hand)
and shoot twice during one combat round. I found this unrealistic because I normally picture one
sniper rifle being wielded with both hands at least, so if we talk about realism, sometimes
even commercial games did make bad design decisions. You could fire both sniper rifles in one
round :-)

By the way, not wanting to digress but there could be a new fire mode "fire both pistols
at same target" which could result in one "dual shot" at a slightly higher damage and hit
rate than firing only one.

What are you talking about? Fallout 2 gave you two weapon slots so you could switch between weapons since almost every gun had it's own ammo. Thus relying on one gun type was a bad idea due to the limited amount you could have at any time. I hear about this all the time and I have yet to see two shots go off at once at the cost of one shot AP. The character graphic clearly shows your guy put away one weapon and pull out the other. This function costs no AP therefore it's possible to go into a room and use your SMG to shoot down some people and then switch to the rocket launcher and shoot a rocket at the super mutant. Also note that AP is basically a measure of how fast your character is. One round is six seconds. Every six seconds (one round) you get your AP filled. With it maxed out you can take anywhere from 2-4 shots depending on character setup and the gun being used. With the 4 shot setup being hard to achieve and not as useful with precision based weapons as a two or three shot setup is. 4 bursts from an smg or 2 heavy damage accurate and aimed shots at your enemies eye? I see no problem in allowing a player to use two weapons at once for extra lead in the air. Some might prefer it to using snipers since sniper combat (also known as realistic and in slang terms SOCOM combat) is rather boring for some people.

It comes down to this.

- Allow players to play either way and appease two crowds. Give the devs more to work with in their designs and ideas.

- Allow players to play only one way and alienate yourself from one crowd appeasing only one. Give the devs less idea freedom.

Now, please state your reason for wanting to take away from the fanbase, possible modding community base, and gameplay.

Why is it that you wish to oppress people to thinking and playing like you do? Answer that question. Because that is EXACTLY what you are asking devs to do. You ask them to chop off their own hand for no good reason. This question is aimed at those who want SOCOM combat.

I agree with shev. It's easier to learn how to use your hand than it is to live without it. Give the option but in no way make it uber or mandatory to the point where it breaks the game.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 08:03:53 am by hotdog »

Juni Ori

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2008, 01:22:48 pm »
Why is it that you wish to oppress people to thinking and playing like you do? Answer that question. Because that is EXACTLY what you are asking devs to do. You ask them to chop off their own hand for no good reason. This question is aimed at those who want SOCOM combat.

I agree with shev. It's easier to learn how to use your hand than it is to live without it. Give the option but in no way make it uber or mandatory to the point where it breaks the game.
Isn't that actually the thing: oppressing people? Trying to put the blame on others? Why wouldn't we all have right to say our opinion. I bet that the devs both listen us and our opinions and stick with their decisions they have decided to stick with.

Offline Winter

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Re: Dual Wielding Pistols?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2008, 07:43:53 pm »
- Allow players to play either way and appease two crowds. Give the devs more to work with in their designs and ideas. (Waste precious development time and resources on a completely useless feature)

OR

- Allow players to play only one way and alienate yourself from one crowd appeasing only one. Give the devs less idea freedom. (Let the developers get on with things rather than bowing to pressure for things we don't want or like)

Additions/translations mine, in red. No dual-wielding pistol mode is in the plans and, unless somebody joins the team for no other reason and with no greater prioriy than to waste code on this, no dual-wielding pistol mode will be added.

Regards,
Winter