Grenade Launcher

[SpaceWombat]

I'm not sure how spread actually works in code but as far as I understand it that should be no problem.
If spread defines the probability of an variation of the optimal shooting angel (i.e. from a perfect hit) that's exactly what it is all about.
If the GL has a minimum range (or a fix projectile acceleration as it has in reality) but the ability to use a steep angle you will be less accurate with a longer ballistic curve (an angle variation will lead to a greater position difference from the target the longer the line of shooting).

That leads me to an even more realistic approach. A fix "range" for the GL. You would only be able to variate the angle. If you shoot something near the grenade might be to fast (if you miss and detonation on impact is used). Either you are a good shooter or you will have to try a steep angle (and therefore be less accurate).

Maybe its too complicated but the most realistic thing I can think of.

[Surrealistik]

As far as I'm concerned the grenade launcher requires only two things:

A: Granular, precise angle control.

B: No hard maximum range. Let physics define this.

[tchristney]

The other thing that real-life GLs have is explode on impact - there is no "timed" explosions. I'm not even sure how you would be able to toggle this without changing the ammo load or using very complicated (read: expensive) grenades. If you can select the launch angle, then you shouldn't need the timed shot feature. Also in real-life, GLs have sights that allow you to set the range - there is a well defined ballistic angle inherent in that selection (I'm not sure if the sights have a high/low ballistic path option, although that could be the case). So choosing your own angle is basically equivalent to firing "from the hip", i.e. is much less accurate. With time and experience you would get better at that skill though.

From what I have read, a trained grenadier can consistently drop grenades into a garbage can at 100 m using the Korean War era M79. Not someone you want to be downrange from.

[nemchenk]

On a quick aside:

The weapon has two fire modes; timed shot, which will detonate grenades at a set time after leaving the barrel, and airburst, which will detonate grenades in the air after they have travelled a certain distance.

Don't these basically mean the same thing? (I understand the difference between the two firemodes, I just think the text could use a rewrite.)

[SpaceWombat]

The other thing that real-life GLs have is explode on impact - there is no "timed" explosions. I'm not even sure how you would be able to toggle this without changing the ammo load or using very complicated (read: expensive) grenades.

It is 2084 in game and taking into account experimental projects like the Landwarrior system which uses various types of grenades as a >main weapon< (yes it is expensive, so what? It will be less expensive then.) I think that is not a knock-out argument for different fire modes.

From what I have read, a trained grenadier can consistently drop grenades into a garbage can at 100 m using the Korean War era M79. Not someone you want to be downrange from.

Considering the miss quote of professional basketball players on short ranges with their own hands under pressure I highly doubt that. On 100m even a mechanical computer aided aiming system might miss quite often using a ballistic weapon with high calibre due to complex variables that change without compensation (wind, shell quality flux, breechblock inaccuracy in (semi) automatic weapons...). The explosion radius and the rate of fire are the advantages of the GL not its accuracy.

Don't these basically mean the same thing? (I understand the difference between the two firemodes, I just think the text could use a rewrite.)

Right. "Air burst" actually is an "explode on impact" mode.

[shevegen]

Can grenades destroy parts of walls?

Anyway, I think one reason aside from game balance to keep weapons (in general) not too effective is also that if too much realism enters the game, it becomes more and more complex. This can already be seen on the other thread talking about the formula of the XP.

Personally I am fine with complexity as long as my old brain is able to understand it, i.e. if it does not grow too complex :-)

Btw can grenades already malfunction? In reallife this happens... how about a slightly increased range with a moderate chance that a grenade does not function (or explodes lateron... could be fun when you walk nearby and it explodes) :-)

[Panthera Leo]

I have to agree at least in so far as work needs to be done, I don't know about the rest of the player base; However, by the time I can move on into range to have a good shot the target is either dead or there are better ways to kill the target(s). In my view it's a limited use weapon with a use too limited to demand it's use over more ubiquitous weapons when I can simply toss a hand grenade.

May I suggest it be made into less of a carpet bombing weapon and more in a high explosive cannon? Like some less like a mini-morter, and more like the cannon of X-Com:UFO Defense loaded with high explosive rounds. I know AI != X-Com, just a common reference point.

Maybe make/alter a assault weapon able to load one or two of the grenade launcher's rounds below the barrel?

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, the grenade launcher is definitely situational, but it does its job very well, especially if you can squeeze additional range out of it via the timed detonation option. It is also one of the deadliest weapons period at close range with plasma rounds (high damage/tu efficiency + splash + indirect fire). I personally believe the weapon valuable as I can typically find a use for it on most missions. Refined angle control and the elimination of its max range would have it prove indispensible. Meanwhile additional grenade types such as antimatter, smoke, flares, stun gas, and flashbangs would also serve to increase its appeal and general utility. I am however leery of increasing its range without decreasing its shot/TU efficency and/or accuracy, in otherwords, essentially making it another weapon entirely. I feel there should be a seperate piece of mortar like gear responsible for heavy, long ranged bombardment, as this is a sufficiently different niche from the one the grenade launcher (post-tweaking) successfully inhabits.

[SpaceWombat]

I think the grenade launcher should be balanced by its inaccuracy. Range, firepower and rate of fire (semi automatic and drum mag) should be a pro.
Inaccuracy makes it useful in special situations only but gives you a good punch if the mission is on fire. And that's what a GL should be in my view: cheap firepower support.

[Aiki-Knight]

I've never used the grenade launcher, on account of the danger to bystanders. But it's a great weapon and will be extremely useful in the game. But not a suitable weapon for terror missions - civilians negate its usefulness, and this is sensible, as most SWAT-style teams probably don't use grenade launchers often.

Did I mention this is the best XCOM game ever?

[ceponatia]

I tried using the GL the first few times I played the game and although it is a really quick way to kill a target, in cramped urban areas it's almost useless because you'll be hit by the splash damage too. I second the idea of being able to lob grenades onto 2nd level roofs and such. That alone would make it exponentially better. Right now you run into the problem of turning a corner and having an alien 3 feet in front of you and not being able to shoot it without dying.

A lot of people are talking about what makes the game fun vs. realistic. I think you can do a pretty damn good job of balancing the two without compromising difficulty. For example if you're tweaking all of the PHALANX weaponry to be more realistic and effective... well you should probably do that to the alien weaponry too.

That was a qualm of mine with X-Com. The aliens had only a few types of weaponry compared to the X-Com soldiers. Did the aliens just develop a military 20 years ago? Is this their first war? From what I remember they had 3 plasma (or sonic) weapons and perhaps one or two demolition weapons. Granted plasma weapons are really strong but what about long range rifles, assault weapons, or even weapon types that couldn't even realistically exist with our current technology (mass drivers, quantum weapons, etc)?

I mean imagine being able to research mass driver weapons. Lobbing a projectile at near light-speed at a soft target would allow for some interesting death animations.

[SpaceWombat]

Right now you run into the problem of turning a corner and having an alien 3 feet in front of you and not being able to shoot it without dying.

Right. And you should never be able to use a weapon like that in close quarters battle. It must have some disadvantages.

I mean imagine being able to research mass driver weapons. Lobbing a projectile at near light-speed at a soft target would allow for some interesting death animations.

So much about realism. Accelerating something to near lightspeed will need more energy than mankind is able to produce (progressive energy consumption with unlimited energy at light speed).
I can live with ufo tech and so on but bolter rifle is enough about projectiles. We got that particle beam weapon by the way.

[Surrealistik]

Right now you run into the problem of turning a corner and having an alien 3 feet in front of you and not being able to shoot it without dying.

I've always found that to be something of a rarity. In order to kill aliens while minimizing damage to yourself at close/point blank range with the GL all that's needed is a little creative use of banking and splash damage. Most conditions in my experience will permit this.

[Panthera Leo]

...
That was a qualm of mine with X-Com. The aliens had only a few types of weaponry compared to the X-Com soldiers. Did the aliens just develop a military 20 years ago?
...

CURRENT STORYLINE -- SPOILERS!

[Aiki-Knight]

I assumed I wouldn't be so hot on the grenade launcher, so I didn't use it. But I was wrong, soooo wrong.

First, after the first few rounds, any civilians near the aliens are usually dead, especially if an alien is camping in a small building. Second, there are places where aliens hide and civilians don't, such as in their ships.

Ah, the grenade launcher.

It can actually shoot farther than the firing arc allows, if you use the "timed" mode. Fire it so it bounces along a little farther. Seriously, I've bounced grenades through windows into little buildings and killed aliens inside. And bouncing 3-round bursts of grenades around inside a harvester or supply ship is just awesome. Does all kinds of damage. The grenade launcher is a highly specialized weapon, and must be used with care. It's not the weapon an agent should carry storming a room, or working closely around civilians. It's a fire-support weapon and, when in its element, does awesome damage. It's great for dislodging ensconced aliens. You can bounce timed grenades around corners, too.

I don't fully understand the flechette rounds, which seem to fire like a monstrous shotgun with a wide spread. In this case, the flechette rounds actually make a great storming weapon, because nothing, and I mean nothing, at close range can survive one shot of it. I thought the flechette round would fire like a grenade, then explode at the point of impact. Either way, I equip my Grenadier with a sidearm so he's got something suitable for close-quarters fighting, and I'm thinking to upgrade him to carrying an SMG for that purpose.

So, yeah, the grenade launcher is awesome. Try it out!