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Author Topic: New soldier stat increase system  (Read 40535 times)

Offline PhilRoi

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2009, 10:05:10 pm »
recruits aren't going to change in quality...   already recruiting the best of the best.   this gives you a diffrent method to get them up to speed that will scale with the game.  and it is both realistic and reasonable.   Units teach themselves.  somebody does something well so he gets called on to teach it to others...

can make it as complicated or simple as you like.  or even code it in stages getting more complex

a.poll existing soldier skills to create "ghost" instructor whos stats are equal to the best in each catageoy found in all your soldiers... and improve all skills according to the scale i mentioned.  the bigger the difffernce the better the bonus.  the closer student gets to instructor the slower the gains.

b. pick 1 soldier to teach at a time...  can use all his stats and do general instruction with tiny bonuses to everthing or just pick one stat and do fucused instruction.  this mon we are teaching assault,  next month we will be breaking out the heavy weapons...  in which case the improvements would be greater but limited to 1 stat.

c. heck you could also assign every recruit their own mentor...   but thats probably more complicated then it needs to be. and way more coding then is needed....


i do like option B

Offline Another Guy

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2009, 10:42:31 pm »
recruits aren't going to change in quality...   already recruiting the best of the best.   this gives you a diffrent method to get them up to speed that will scale with the game.  and it is both realistic and reasonable.   Units teach themselves.  somebody does something well so he gets called on to teach it to others...

can make it as complicated or simple as you like.  or even code it in stages getting more complex

a.poll existing soldier skills to create "ghost" instructor whos stats are equal to the best in each catageoy found in all your soldiers... and improve all skills according to the scale i mentioned.  the bigger the difffernce the better the bonus.  the closer student gets to instructor the slower the gains.

b. pick 1 soldier to teach at a time...  can use all his stats and do general instruction with tiny bonuses to everthing or just pick one stat and do fucused instruction.  this mon we are teaching assault,  next month we will be breaking out the heavy weapons...  in which case the improvements would be greater but limited to 1 stat.

c. heck you could also assign every recruit their own mentor...   but thats probably more complicated then it needs to be. and way more coding then is needed....


i do like option B

The simpler, the better. Assigning instructors would add unecessary codes and unecessary micromanagement. But i liked idea "a" very much. Very simple, and will work well at any stage of the game at any dificulty, and still give player an extra incentive to keep specialist veterans alive (better training for rokies). Awesome!

Offline Battlescared

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2009, 12:46:33 am »
Just chiming in again as a part timer.  I was just offering an idea.  I like the planed method equally well if not better. 

Of the options listed above, if they're on the table, I think option (B) is the most straighforward, however, the "ghost instructor" option of (A) could really be thought of as team mentorship.  A new guy is recruited and everyone on the team takes him/her under their wings and crams everything they all know about surviving in the field they can think of.  He gets up to speed fast and within a few missions is battle ready, somewhat equal to the overall level of the team. 

In reality though, there would be some kind of classroom training from a qualified instructor that would bring new recruits up to speed, and option B is probably more representative of how a real military organization would go about it structurally. 

But extending the ideas just a bit further, perhaps what really happens is a mix of A and B where people really learn by instruction and by mentorship.  It may be too complicated to mix those two models, though, and just simpler to go with an assigned instructor as the main means of getting recruits up to speed.

Offline homunculus

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2009, 04:47:29 am »
you need better soldiers in later game, and your (ghost) teachers become better :) looks neat imho.

myself i would be thinking more about how combat experience would fit into it.
somehow i would assume that the rookies already know how to shoot, but shooting at aliens can be confusing, so they need to see some real aliens.
the reason for this kind of nitpicking is, of course, that you would actually need to shoot something with the rookies on the battlefield, and that would, hopefully create some appropriate minor challenges.
if it's just pure training back in the safety of the base, then it sort of seems to be almost equivalent to having a delay for recruiting.

and, btw, getting at least one soldier with lots of combat experience suddenly becomes one of the main objectives, doesn't it?
if it will be balanced so that it will not create ridiculous behavior in the tactical field, i think it would make perfect sense that you would benefit from experienced instructors in your training simulator.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 04:50:13 am by homunculus »

Offline PhilRoi

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2009, 10:15:52 am »
T3 Center (Tactical Team Training Center).

For your consideration:

I am a combat soldier and I won't mince words. We need someplace to train.  We have learned a metric ton about fighting the aliens but need a space to call our own so we can hone our skills.  Up until now we have just been using the rooms and hallways around here to try and get the rookies up to speed.  It really isn't working, we are doing everything we can but the rookies are still getting hammered out there.  We have had to do it wherever we can find space and we aren't underfoot. My guys tend to bump into things, sometimes sensitive things, while moving around and there are places where that isn't a good idea,  strangely those places also tend to be the only places we can find enough space to train.  Navvare says one of my guys tripped in a lab and nearly upset some lab equipment and set the research team back several months.  They managed to rescue the specimens in time though. He talked to the engineer and he agreed since they are tired of finding us crawling around the workshops and running into gun barrels in the dark corners whenever we bump something out of alignment and they have to go in and fix it. The two of them put their heads together and think they can rig up some fancy computer controlled and simulated shoot house of sorts for us.  I won't say i understood half of what they went on about,  but they say they can rig it up to handle some live fire training too.  For those things it can't handle, they can rig simulated weapons that it can handle.   It will also have the capability to do variable terrain and whatnot.  The engineers say they will be happy to rebuild the thing if we manage to demolish it.  After all, a few hours rebuilding plywood walls is nothing compared to the hours spent troubleshooting and recalibrating the power plant anytime we bump the wrong thing doing what we are doing now.  The scientists say that based on the recordings from the mission recorders we all wear during missions they can rig holograms, projectors and whatnot to re-create those missions for us to train with.  Claim they can rig it up as a controlled virtual reality experience or something.  I won't claim to understand it, but i believe they do.  Quite frankly, We don't have a good place to hone our skills.  And if this thing they have in mind can do half of what they say it can, it may be just the thing.  I am tired of losing soldiers and if this thing helps us to get the training we need to keep from getting blasted.  I am all for it.  Truth is we have a lot of experience on the team already and we can rotate through the Training Centers as our own instructors.  We can be better, We can stop losing rookies every time we go out,  we just need the right place to get better.

yours
Da Gruntz!

sounds like option A above was the most liked idea.  Helps to solve the rookie getting up to speed problem especially and does what we want a training center to do, slightly increase the improvement of all soldier skills.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 10:23:02 am by PhilRoi »

odie

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2009, 11:10:20 am »
Nice ideas....

Now, still waiting to see what the dev team and BTAxis think of this.

1) Recruits starting stats should remain same (low) as their quality is same.
2) Conflicts is quite advanced by mid-stage, hence, we would want to need get them preped up thru training quick.
3) Mentorship system (ghost system of picking best in each genre and 'memorising it') sounds good for ever veteran imparts his knowledge to all trainees.
4) We might ask if veterans want to increase his other skills; perhaps, then again, do we want to put him into 'retraining' so he becomes a better soldier, or simply send him on further missions (to which he prob increase his expertise skills further, making him a better lecturer in that field).
5) Last but not least, we use a sorta of a gradiant graph which makes initial training faster (for noobs) and slow down as they have basic understanding and go into the 'specialisation phase' which takes a much longer time to train, or simply send em on missions!

Sounds like a reasonable summary of tots for us here so far? ;)

Offline PhilRoi

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2009, 11:44:34 am »
lol realistically its the easiest to code. and incorporate,  which really is the ultimate test. ;)

Just set-up a function call once a month to set the training skill level for the month.  I wouldn't even worry about "enrolling" soldiers in training since the reality is everyone would be swinging by to train in periods between missions. Then at the same time compare skill level of training center to trainees to determine amount skills are improved.  Design a function to put the amount improved on a curve so that those with the most to learn, learn the most and those with not much to learn get very little.  your other veterans  might get a little boost  but not much from being in training.  There should be a fairly clear point in the improvement curve for individual soldiers where it becomes obvious training center improvement will never replace real combat experience for improving your soldiers.   So for the rookies its great but for the vet's it is of limited benefit.  and good veterens improve the skill improvement of the rookies.

the above letter can be easily re-written from Navvare's or the head engineers perspective complaining about the soldiers underfoot trying to train....  eh Winter?  Though I kinda like it coming from a soldier.  These guys are the ones in the fight. and while they aren't as brainiac as others,  they ARE the subject matter experts in what they do...  killing aliens.  Reality is soldiers train all the time.  especially in the more elite special forces units.   so the subject of looking for a good place to train would be soldier driven.

Offline Another Guy

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2009, 01:49:16 pm »
4) We might ask if veterans want to increase his other skills; perhaps, then again, do we want to put him into 'retraining' so he becomes a better soldier, or simply send him on further missions (to which he prob increase his expertise skills further, making him a better lecturer in that field).

Since teachers can actually learn something from students or from preparing for the classes, status goal (max stats in the pool) should maybe be raised in 1 or 2 points so teachers can learn as well from training (although at a ridiculous slow rate...). Or maybe setting a minimum learning value.

Offline Winter

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2009, 08:52:32 pm »
There seems to be a lot of overthinking going on here. We're not going to have veteran troops as trainers, or anything like that, because it adds tons of micromanagement. Also, we already have a training building and a system for it.

http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Base_Facilities/Training_Simulator

It's just not been coded yet, like a lot of things.

Regards,
Winter

Offline Another Guy

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2009, 09:16:49 pm »
There seems to be a lot of overthinking going on here. We're not going to have veteran troops as trainers, or anything like that, because it adds tons of micromanagement. Also, we already have a training building and a system for it.

http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Base_Facilities/Training_Simulator

It's just not been coded yet, like a lot of things.

Regards,
Winter

Yep. Specially considering it has not been coded yet, we are just triyng to thing a good mechanics for the training simulator. And idea "a" from PhilRoi ("ghost" instructor from best soldiers stats pool) eliminates any need for micromanagement.

Quote from: Training Simulator (UFOpaedia)
Unfortunately, our simulation options are limited by our lack of experience fighting aliens. So far we have only encountered the one alien race, the 'greys', and the robotic spiders we've seen on camera. Both types of alien are highly dangerous and have tremendously outperformed human troops during the engagements we've recorded. Worse, there may be more types of alien we have not yet seen and about whom we would have no tactical data. The relative performance of our troops may be impaired until we can build up a larger body of experience about how alien squads operate and communicate, and perhaps discover their goals and intentions for Earth.

All engagements involving PHALANX troops are recorded via cameras and will be turned into simulator scenarios where possible. It is highly effective for our soldiers to relive an engagement and see where they may have made mistakes or could have been more effective, and for new recruits to learn from our amassed experience.

UFOpaedia entry seems to support this idea, since new recordings from tactical missions (from experienced soldiers) would continuously add quality to the training over time.

Quote from: Training Simulator (UFOpaedia)
Any base housing an armed response team needs a Training Simulator. The simulator is absolutely vital for nurturing and maintaining our soldiers' combat skills and physical fitness. The simulator also develops the soldier's individual talents and assists in understanding his or her combat experiences. Without proper training, our troops don't stand a chance of surviving in the field.
It even supports veteran skill development chance.



Obs: If there is a plan already discussed and ready about training mechanics, I either was unable to find it on forum/wiki or hasn't been made public yet.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:25:45 pm by Another Guy »

odie

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2009, 10:32:02 pm »
There seems to be a lot of overthinking going on here. We're not going to have veteran troops as trainers, or anything like that, because it adds tons of micromanagement. Also, we already have a training building and a system for it.

http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Base_Facilities/Training_Simulator

It's just not been coded yet, like a lot of things.

Regards,
Winter

Hi Winter,

I believed we all are aware of this Training Simulator already. :D

So far, in the proposal, nothing much mentioned except that the simulator will be based on whats seen in mumbai.

I believe that as the time goes on, where Phalanx soldiers meet more bad-ass in conflicts, these can be further incorporated into the TS (Training Simulator) which results in the scenarios some of us mentioned and discussed earlier.

Maybe in line with that proposal idea, it wont be the soldiers who will be doing the trainer's roles?? But specialised combat specialist / tacticians who will analysed each battle and incorporating this into the TS - which means: We can still have our scenario (of basing the baseline training standards based on average of top 10 soldiers for eg), yet for the storyline's sake - its really done by these tacticians and simulator's.

:D Its 4.31am, and i just came back from helping out as a first aider at our national day's parade.... so i ma be not making good english sense here. :D Just dropping a quick furthering of tots so u folks can discuss further. :D Toodles.

Offline Winter

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2009, 11:55:54 pm »
So far, in the proposal, nothing much mentioned except that the simulator will be based on whats seen in mumbai.

I believe that as the time goes on, where Phalanx soldiers meet more bad-ass in conflicts, these can be further incorporated into the TS (Training Simulator) which results in the scenarios some of us mentioned and discussed earlier.

Maybe in line with that proposal idea, it wont be the soldiers who will be doing the trainer's roles?? But specialised combat specialist / tacticians who will analysed each battle and incorporating this into the TS - which means: We can still have our scenario (of basing the baseline training standards based on average of top 10 soldiers for eg), yet for the storyline's sake - its really done by these tacticians and simulator's.

Clearly you haven't read the article. It expressly mentions that all tac missions performed by PHALANX are recorded and used for constant reviews and updates of infantry tactics. At some point we also want all battles to be replayable at will through the Training Simulator.

There's no point in expressly mentioning who trains whom or how it happens. Training happens, and the player's imagination can fill in the rest. As for the system, thank you, but we never take design ideas off the forum.

Regards,
Winter

Offline PhilRoi

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Re: New soldier stat increase system
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2009, 11:11:29 am »
dead topic.  :D  it's already figured out no need to waste time on it.