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Author Topic: Medikits  (Read 74531 times)

Panthera Leo

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2008, 12:38:55 am »

...
  • ...
  • imagine a soldier is on the edge of death due to a wound at the chest. If he is hit again he will die. Can you imagine a mechanical device that completely heals him, so that he can be again hit from beginning as before?
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....

Truthfully? Yes.

Biologically, just because the human body has degraded to it's sorry state doesn't mean it's not near fictional in it's ability to self repair. Where do you think we learned all of our medical knowledge to build mechanical medical equipment? We observed the body in action under stress,  and said "Cool! Can we do that?" :P There's more information to the single strand of DNA that exists in non-living material in the universe as a whole. Even in all our accumulated knowledge no one has even successfully designed anything approachable to the complexity  and resilience of one single human cell.

You'll never see in anywhere in the main stream media even alluding to it (It would be akin to an admission of the existence of God.), but what is dubbed "miraculous" healing is common place.

So yes, I see the only technical hurdle to a complete reconstruction any cell, tissue, organ, structure ,or resurrection is our lack of knowledge on how to do it.

Things you'll never see unless you look for.

A cartoon I thought was funny, wile on the subject, I found wile poking around: After Eden "Show and Tell"
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 01:45:38 am by Panthera Leo »

vadim

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2008, 01:15:56 am »
Me, I don't see the point in having that, anyway. My experience with all games is that shooting to kill is always more effective than shooting to cripple.

I like the option to shoot at the head. In Jagged Alliance a headshot is pretty much a guaranteed kill. If you could sneak up on someone to the point a knife is an option (note: in JA using a knife isn't a guaranteed hit, an agile adversary is hard to hit), then you'd shoot at the head and even a pistol would do fine.

Lack of this in UFO AI puts you in a strange situation. You can shoot with powerful weapons (even plasma blasters) at point blank range and still NOT kill the alien. A plasma blaster to a head that's not fully covered by some sort of helmet should be an instant kill to any vaguely human-like lifeform. Even if you're dealing with something with bones of adamantium, a plasma blaster to the face is something that should have an incredibly gory effect (along the lines of melting the face off, destroying the eyes, and frying the brain).

It is VERY weird that when face to face with an alien I have to dig out a kerrblade out of a backpack for a guaranteed kill because the incredibly high tech gun would get used in about the least efficient way possible for the situation. The alternative is a multishot, but it's wasteful of ammo, takes many TUs, and is very inaccurate.

Reasons I see to shoot at specific body part:
Head: Guaranteed kill at short distance. Worthy target for a well trained sniper.
Torso: Default for shooting from a distance. Easiest hit.
Legs: Reduces mobility/eliminates ability to move
Arms: Reduces accuracy/eliminates ability to use a weapon

The last two wouldn't be very useful against aliens (since they're dime a dozen), but it's much different for multiplayer. If you know you can't kill with one hit, crippling the enemy sniper who just made the mistake of showing up in the open, or reducing a short range/melee user's ability to move would have much better effect than simply reducing HP a bit. Additionally shooting to the legs would mess with a squad's organization, by making the wounded one unable to keep up with the rest.

Offline burns77

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2008, 04:30:48 am »
ok I don't think this is the place to post this, but it is already going, so here goes. 

In this game you have the option of taking all your turns before the enemy does.  Thus if one soldier sees an enemy, your entire team can take shots at him, this is unrealistic, but its game dynamics.  If you were a soldier in real life, and you encountered an enemy at a range where they could easily see you as well and reactions matter... trying to target any body part in particular is extremely difficult... even for expert marksmen, thus the rule of aiming for center mass taught to all soldiers and police units throughout the world.  This is also why armor is used to cover torsos.  Your head is a very valuable part of your anatomy... but also makes up about 10% (less actually) of your total body mass.  The only units that could conceivably deliver head shots should be the sniper, which amazingly enough have a head shot ability already.  Not to mention that it would be much more difficult to design a body part damage system.  Sounds good to players... but how would it affect you when the aliens shoot you... you want to let a measly pot shot that normally wouldn't kill you be a head shot for an instant death?  I wouldn't... I only have 8 guys out there and they are thin enough without that, and almost no aliens use reactionary fire yet...so imagine when they do have that ability.  I'd try to focus on a wound per damage taken in one shot level of penalties.

Not trying to argue or start a fight, just food for thought

-Burns77

Offline eleazar

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2008, 06:45:39 am »
* Not to mention that it would be much more difficult to design a body part damage system...

* Sounds good to players... but how would it affect you when the aliens shoot you... you want to let a measly pot shot that normally wouldn't kill you be a head shot for an instant death?...

IMHO those are the argument-ending points.

vadim

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2008, 05:40:13 pm »
ok I don't think this is the place to post this, but it is already going, so here goes. 

In this game you have the option of taking all your turns before the enemy does.  Thus if one soldier sees an enemy, your entire team can take shots at him, this is unrealistic, but its game dynamics.
Not entirely unrealistic, no. If you walk into a room and it turns out that in every corner there's an alien just waiting for you to appear, well, you're screwed. They're not taking shots at you either, they're shooting simultaneously, it's just a turn based game. Could be implemented differently. IIRC in Laser Squad Nemesis you first give everybody orders, then they're all executed at once.

  If you were a soldier in real life, and you encountered an enemy at a range where they could easily see you as well and reactions matter... trying to target any body part in particular is extremely difficult... even for expert marksmen, thus the rule of aiming for center mass taught to all soldiers and police units throughout the world.  This is also why armor is used to cover torsos.  Your head is a very valuable part of your anatomy... but also makes up about 10% (less actually) of your total body mass. 
Completely true. But don't tell me that if you have a pistol and find an alien a square away you're going to shoot at the body. Yes, the body is a better target. But it also guarantees that the alien won't die, then you're screwed next turn.

Sounds good to players... but how would it affect you when the aliens shoot you... you want to let a measly pot shot that normally wouldn't kill you be a head shot for an instant death? 
Not a whole lot actually, since even with nanocomposite armor the aliens have single shot instant death weapons. Kerrblade, plasma blade, and the bigger plasma and particle guns. A headshot would have low chances of succeeding at low distances anyway, so I might even get killed less, due to aliens missing more often.

In practical terms, a face to face alien vs me encounter would probably go like this:
Alien's turn: Alien just blasts my head off with a particle weapon instead of using a kerrblade/plasma blade or auto for the same effect. Not a whole lot of difference. I find it that if you're at a few squares of an alien who noticed your presence, the chances of survival are minimal.

My turn: When faced with an alien at a nearby range, having a plasma blaster, and not enough TUs for auto, I'd go for the headshot instead of shooting a plasma ball and possibly killing myself with it (no better choice there, since a single shot won't work for sure).

Not trying to argue
People are strange these days, I love a good argument. When it's for the purpose of getting something decided and not for just the sake of being contrarian of course.

Offline burns77

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2008, 07:26:30 pm »
I know how aggravating it is in close combat with aliens, or if you leave your troops in the open, but the only 2 weapons that have ever one-shot killed me, as of the 2.2 release while my troops are wearing nanocomposite armor are the partical beam cannon and the plama cannon. 

You are right, the aliens have the distinct advantage in armor and in weaponry, but should enjoy a technological advantage for the majority of the game.  Also there will be other armor types implemented, which will greatly improve your troops survival chances.  Until then long to medium range support for close combat troops is essential... many times an alien pops out of hiding and my snipers or assault troops will drop him before he gets the chance to harm the guy up front with the sub-machine gun.  Any troop going toe-to-toe with an alien is at an extreme disadvantage... and yes I've seen an armored alien take 3 full auto blasts form a sub machine gun and kill the guy who shot him.

Your opinion for a body part system isn't a bad one, it is just very hard for a programmer to code, and even much more so to code realistically.  These guys are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts with their free time.  They even made the code open source, so if this body part system is near and dear to you, give em a hand and code it... they will at least take a look at it and then accept or reject it based on the scope they set aside for this project, which I believe both of us would say they are doing an outstanding job with.

Oh and I'm not against arguing for a valid point... but I don't think these guys will actually do the body part system coding, because it require a rewrite from a very early part of the coding process.


-Burns77

vadim

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2008, 09:29:34 pm »
You are right, the aliens have the distinct advantage in armor and in weaponry, but should enjoy a technological advantage for the majority of the game. 
No argument there.

Also there will be other armor types implemented, which will greatly improve your troops survival chances.  Until then long to medium range support for close combat troops is essential... many times an alien pops out of hiding and my snipers or assault troops will drop him before he gets the chance to harm the guy up front with the sub-machine gun.  Any troop going toe-to-toe with an alien is at an extreme disadvantage... and yes I've seen an armored alien take 3 full auto blasts form a sub machine gun and kill the guy who shot him.
No argument here either, it's expected.

The thing is that I'd expect the soldiers to know that as well. A soldier would need to be outright demented to know that the alien's armor can take a full auto blast to the chest and still shoot at it instead of the smaller but much more vulnerable head. First option has no chances of success while the second does, it's rather obvious which is the smarter choice.

Your opinion for a body part system isn't a bad one, it is just very hard for a programmer to code, and even much more so to code realistically.  These guys are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts with their free time.  They even made the code open source, so if this body part system is near and dear to you, give em a hand and code it... they will at least take a look at it and then accept or reject it based on the scope they set aside for this project, which I believe both of us would say they are doing an outstanding job with.
Oh, I understand that very well, I've got an Open Source project of my own.

Whether I contribute a patch or not though, I still think discussion is a good thing, as long as there are chances of something getting done.

The first post of this thread suggests precisely that a per-body part damage system is going to be implemented. It's then only natural that it should be possible to pick which to shoot at. Maybe alinour will think I have a point and implement my idea, I don't think anything is lost by making a suggestion.

And if I'm going to do the coding myself, it's still worth discussing, as there's no point in coding something nobody wants. At the very least I think determining whether it's a "this idea sucks" vs "this idea is fine but nobody wants to work on it" is a good thing.

Oh and I'm not against arguing for a valid point... but I don't think these guys will actually do the body part system coding, because it require a rewrite from a very early part of the coding process.
Disclaimer: I haven't read the source. But no rewrite should be required.

Granted, it's not a tiny change, but it shouldn't be a huge one either. It would involve some UI changes and a tweak to hit probability calculation. Not a lot, since most of the rest seems to be going in anyway.

A rewrite is almost never required for any project, excepting very large changes (2D to 3D conversion, switch to a radically different engine, maybe addition of multiplayer mode to a game coded in such a way that it can't be easily adapted for it). Things like damage calculation are really a quite minor thing relatively speaking.

Offline shevegen

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2008, 01:47:51 pm »
"every actor will have a structure for body parts with the level of wound"

I think that is a great idea. I missed that a bit

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2008, 11:24:09 pm »
Sorry if I'm brining this back from the dead.
After reading some of this (skied something, there's a lot) I can only say this:

Realism is OK, but don't overdo it.
The game is hard enough as it is (no saving during battle, not even at turn start, hospitals heal slowly).
Medikits are the only thing that keeps soldiers alive currently.

While they can be abused (overuse) that can be fixed without nefring medikits to oblivion. Fixed number of charges, fixed amount of HP it can heal (2/3 max HP was proposed if I'm not mistaken?) and it will even things nicely without turning battles into replaying loops of hell.

A Few Good Mutons

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2008, 11:04:42 am »
Noticed this near the top and thought I'd toss in my two credits...

How about a JA2-style medikit system?  For those unfamiliar with it, it essentially works like this:
Merc A has 90 HP when completely healthy.
Merc A gets shot for 40 points of damage.  He starts bleeding. Remaining HP = 50, wound points = 40
Merc B dashes over and starts performing first aid on him.  He quickly patches him up.  Remaining HP = 50, wound points = 0.  Since he no longer has any "wound points", he stops bleeding.
Later, back at town, Merc A goes under medical care and slowly recovers his real HP.

What this does is make damage a very real threat; even getting healed only stops further blood loss and helps counteract some of the shock that reduces combat effectiveness.

In UFO:AI this could be maybe taken a bit further, since the tech in question is much more advanced than field first aid kits.  So in this case, medikits might be able to restore a soldier to near full capacity (only slight combat penalties) and maybe heal a bit of actual damage (say, 1/5 of the "wound points" are healed as actual HP), but he'd still be badly hurt and require proper medical care back at base to fully recover his lost health.

Offline Winter

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2008, 06:06:55 pm »
Noticed this near the top and thought I'd toss in my two credits...

How about a JA2-style medikit system?  For those unfamiliar with it, it essentially works like this:
Merc A has 90 HP when completely healthy.
Merc A gets shot for 40 points of damage.  He starts bleeding. Remaining HP = 50, wound points = 40
Merc B dashes over and starts performing first aid on him.  He quickly patches him up.  Remaining HP = 50, wound points = 0.  Since he no longer has any "wound points", he stops bleeding.
Later, back at town, Merc A goes under medical care and slowly recovers his real HP.

What this does is make damage a very real threat; even getting healed only stops further blood loss and helps counteract some of the shock that reduces combat effectiveness.

In UFO:AI this could be maybe taken a bit further, since the tech in question is much more advanced than field first aid kits.  So in this case, medikits might be able to restore a soldier to near full capacity (only slight combat penalties) and maybe heal a bit of actual damage (say, 1/5 of the "wound points" are healed as actual HP), but he'd still be badly hurt and require proper medical care back at base to fully recover his lost health.

I've always liked the JA2 medical system, but a direct or near-direct translation wouldn't work as well since you don't have to assign your troops as patients or doctors whilst paying them exorbitant amounts of money.

BTAxis and I will redesign the medical system properly at some point soon.

Regards,
Winter

Offline stevenjackson

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2008, 10:57:25 pm »

So this piece of work got dropped?

Also i dont think hospitals are that bad, even the worst hurt soldier will be healed in a hospital within 30 days.

Steve

Offline DanielOR

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2008, 12:12:26 am »
I also think speed of recovery is OK, maybe it can be slowed down to the X-COM-ish speed - ~ a month for grave injuries.

The described JA2 medkit system makes a lot of sense to me.  Stabilize in the field, heal up a bit, pump full of stimulants to keep 'em going with minimal degradation of abilities.  After the battle they drop - if not from wounds, than from comedown off the chemicals, for sure.

AF pilos ('specially long range patrol folk) take "concentration enhancers" routinely, for what I hear.  A chemist I work with says it is amphetamines, plain and simple, similar to Ritalin, what they prescribe to ADD patients.  methamthetamine was used since WW2 for improved battlefield performance.

Offline Nevasith

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2008, 01:37:51 pm »
what about unconsciousness? It would be good  if the badly wounded soldiers fell unconscious instead of dying- than he would be out of combat with lets say 5 turns for someone to patch him up (number of turns would vary depending on difficulty)
As for the time of returning to base it shouldnt matter- every dropship should be equipped with the best medical equipment available- bondages that hold bleeding are already used. Until 2084 the medicine should make significant progress and recreating even a limb should be possible by that time- it would just be a matter of time to "breed" and install such a new limb.

Targeting body parts would be great for multiplayer, but in single it doesnt look that nice. Dont forget, that aliens have special body structure- some have scull reinforced with implants or mutated bones- like Shevar, so even a direct burst from SMG might not be enough to kill it. Ortonoks often wear partial face mask, and tamans often have helmets probably made of alien alloy.

Offline ghosta

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2008, 08:09:12 pm »
what about unconsciousness? It would be good  if the badly wounded soldiers fell unconscious instead of dying- than he would be out of combat with lets say 5 turns for someone to patch him up (number of turns would vary depending on difficulty)

I would like to see this feature too. Something like the grey bar under your health in the original X-Com.
For example:
1. If you get hurt, you loose every 10 lost health another 1 per round. With the medikit you can stop the bleeding --> you are not loosing more and more health.
2. Every 2? damage you get your grey bar under your health grows by 1. If this grey bar (representing your consciousness) reaches your actual health your soldier passes out (with 2/dmg u would pass out at 1/3 of your soldiers health). <-- Can be healed by medikit. (Additionally you can implement weapons/smoke/gas doing extra damage to your consciousness-bar)
3. MAYBE: Every 3? damage you loose a random skillpoint like speed/accuracy/grenades.  <-- Can be healed by medikit.

I recommend to make every damage taken on the battlefield just temporary and just keeping the "normal" damage for the guys in the hospital.