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Author Topic: Medikits  (Read 75455 times)

alinour

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Medikits
« on: February 06, 2008, 09:37:25 am »
hi,

I'm designing new medikit working principle (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/TODO/2.3)

I was thinking to implement something alike original X-COM games.
In particular:
  • every actor will have a structure for body parts with the level of wound
  • every hit it gets, other than loosing HP, actor switches also wound levels on a body part
  • having wounded body parts, the maximum number of HP is limited and some modifiers are applied to other stats (like accuracy for head or arm injuries)
  • medikits can be used in two ways: to recover HP or to treat a wound
  • an untreated wound means loosing HP every turn
  • only a level of wound can be healed through medikits, the rest need hospital degency

Of course, these things will be introduced slowly, my daughter doesn't leave me a lot of spare time...

Let me know what you think about it, or if you have any other idea

_________________

Alinour

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2008, 12:15:04 pm »
I see no problem with this setup, in principle. Keep in mind, though, that we don't have any code to check which part of a soldier is getting hit. Nor do we have code to allow aiming for a specific body part, as was (apparently) the case in Jagged Alliance. Me, I don't see the point in having that, anyway. My experience with all games is that shooting to kill is always more effective than shooting to cripple.

alinour

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2008, 01:58:39 pm »
I agree. I wasn't thinking to aiming to parts, it'll be just a probabilistic approach.

The part of the body hitten, but for realistic purposes, would also be useful to determine which characteristic will be affected by maluses.

Alinour

Offline Zorlen

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2008, 02:39:38 pm »
Nor do we have code to allow aiming for a specific body part
I disagree - sniper rifle can do headshots, regardless of body part hit :-)

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2008, 02:58:41 pm »
I was never too happy with the head shot fire mode, really.

Offline kracken

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2008, 05:56:15 pm »
  • medikits can be used in two ways: to recover HP or to treat a wound
  • an untreated wound means loosing HP every turn
  • only a level of wound can be healed through medikits, the rest need hospital degency

A problem might be that the dropship flying back to base will travel a few hours before arriving to base. If soldiers loose HP every turn, they will be dead by the time they arrive to base.

Furthermore, I agree with BTAxis and I don't think body part implementation is really needed here.

Here's another proposition:
  • A soldier has 'real' HP and medikit 'HP' (well he is fully healed, he has only 'real' HP)
  • A medikit can only increase medikit 'HP'
  • 'real' HP + medikit 'HP' can't be greater than max HP
  • medikit 'HP' can't be greater than max HP (you can't heal soldier indefinitely)
  • A soldier dies when 'real' HP + medikit 'HP' < 0
  • maximum UTs decrease when medikit 'HP' increases (medikit is not as good as hospital, and healed soldiers are not as good as healthy one)
  • Hospital converts medikit 'HP' into 'real' HP (as well as healing 'real' HP)
But i like the idea of loosing HP while a soldier is not healed. So we could add:
  • Each time a soldier loses HP, there is a risk that he starts loosing 'real' HP each turn (depending on number of HP lost, weapon used, soldier's stats, ...)
  • This bleeding (and therefore HP loss) ends when the soldier is healed with medikit (even if medikit 'HP' is maximum)

alinour

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 09:45:24 am »
Quote
A problem might be that the dropship flying back to base will travel a few hours before arriving to base. If soldiers loose HP every turn, they will be dead by the time they arrive to base.
I assume that when the area is clean, the first thing soldiers would do is tend to companions wounds... but your observation is useful: at mission end, all untended wounds levels should automatically decrease of one.

For the rest of your proposed approach, I don't know whether the reality level of such system is high enough... I mean:
  • imagine a soldier is shot in real life in an arm... he can keep on walking fairly well still, but he won't manage to launch something.
  • imagine a soldier is on the edge of death due to a wound at the chest. If he is hitten again he will die. Can you imagine a mechanical device that completely heals him, so that he can be again hit from beginning as before?
  • the method you mentioned would create almost immortal soldiers, in theory... something like hit and heal loop.. Personally I don't like it...
 

at last: the one you proposedit is just an alternative to the method I mentioned, What is the added value? (Consider that in wound system I thought there is no need to aim a body part, it is random selection)

Offline kracken

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 12:00:41 pm »
I assume that when the area is clean, the first thing soldiers would do is tend to companions wounds... but your observation is useful: at mission end, all untended wounds levels should automatically decrease of one.
Wait, I think I misunderstood your basic idea. when you said "an untreated wound means loosing HP every turn", you didn't meant that you needed to heal every level of wound, but that you just need to heal at least one level of wound, right ?
If yes, then forget what I said about soldiers dying while returning to base ;)

the method you mentioned would create almost immortal soldiers, in theory... something like hit and heal loop.. Personally I don't like it...[/li][/list]
No because medikit HP are limited: you can't healed more HP that this limited value (some balancing may be needed to know how many maximum HP can be healed). Furthermore, the more you heal a soldier, the less UTs he has, so an healed soldier is not as usefull as an healthy one.
If you find that medikits are still too powerful this way, just change my previous post with: 'real' HP + 2 * medikit 'HP' can't be greater than max HP

at last: the one you proposedit is just an alternative to the method I mentioned, What is the added value? (Consider that in wound system I thought there is no need to aim a body part, it is random selection)
Yes, this is just an alternative method, where the only significant modification is the removal of body part.
Except for body part removal, there is not really any added value in my proposition compared to yours. This is an alternative method, where what I called medikit 'HP' is similar to what you called wound levels (depending of how you want to implement wound levels: is there a maximum wound level (if you exceed this number, soldier die) ? Do you increase 1 level per wound whatever the number of HP you lost ? Or does the wound level increase by number of HP you lost ?). I have no problem with your "wound level" method rather than my "medikit HP".

Concerning body part, I think that added value of what I proposed is simplicity ;). There's a balancing to choose between simplicity and realism. IMHO, the reality level of your system is either too high or too low. Let me explain:
If a soldier is shot through a window, he may be wounded to legs with the implementation you described. This is not realistic, because the wounded body part would be randomly chosen. So well, we could say that your proposal is not realistic enough, and that we need to implement non-random wounded body part (depending on the position of attacking alien and soldier, weapon used, ...). And then, we'd probably need to implement aiming body part, because I can already hear people on forum saying "Hey, what is the use of having body part if you can't aim them... please implement this". ;).
(well, to be honest, most of the people will probably ask for being able to aim alien body parts... but not for alien being able to aim their soldier's body parts, so this is not really a problem for medikits :P)

IMHO, either we choose simplicity and random body part localization is not needed, either we choose realism, and then we would need to implement a full body part localization code (without randomness).
My personal taste here is simplicity. So I'd rather be for a general wound level (only one per soldier), rather than one per body part.

Having said that, I'm not the one who is going to implement this ;) I'm just giving my opinion here, if you prefer a in-between solution like the one you proposed, that's OK for me. Implementing one wound level per body part will ask you probably more time than only one general wound level (for implementing body part, showing player what body parts are injured on a given soldier, implementing different effect of wound given the localization, maybe changing armour code so that protection on body part may differ ?, ...). Maybe a good solution is starting with general wound level, and see afterwards if using 1 wound level per body part is needed ?

alinour

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 02:34:21 pm »
I see...
you are right about randomness issues...
and I'd avoid the  "implement body part aim" request...

I think that I'll stick to single wound level for whole body for now.

Thanks

(other point of views are always welcome... before I start coding preferably)

sirg

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 12:40:26 am »
My experience with all games is that shooting to kill is always more effective than shooting to cripple.

Shooting an alien in the head, or in the eye  :o (Fallout) would be fatal, compared to a burst in its armored torso which would barely do any harm. So, such a shot should require a higher accuracy skill to perform, like competent or better, which would be a nice addition to the gameplay, making veterans even more valuable.

alinour

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 08:30:17 am »
Oh my God, I created a monster!
I didn't want people to start requesting aimed shots...
Even if it is an interesting topic, this Topic isn't designed to discuss about it, but about medikits and health.

If, from another Topic, community will decide to implement aimed shots, health status code will be updated accordingly, promised (well, if I'll take the action).

sirg

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 11:13:16 am »
Well, the aimed shots and targeting body parts was present in XCOM, and it isn't implemented yet.
Speaking of medikits, yes, their use it's a bit unrealistic, given the fact that plasma weapons and such are extremely lethal, and any hit would cripple if not kill any solider, regardless of armor.

So, this brings 2 issues - make the game more realistic, by making the alien weapons able to one shot kill any soldier, which would mean that all alien weapons will be the same and very powerful, or add some armor that can take the hits, without hurting the soldier.

The medikit should be used for curing burns and wounds from area damage, but nothing more than painkillers and 1st aid.

Maybe the devs should consider giving some hitpoints to armor pieces instead of copying the system from X-COM, where a soldier could have had a leg wound or whatever. So if the armor plate is damaged by shots, then the next shot would instantly kill the soldier.

The part of the body where the soldier is hit could be picked up randomly, ofc, torso having the highest chance, and if the head is hit, then the damage should be multiplied..

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 12:44:47 pm »
We won't be having armour failure, as explained on the wiki.

I agree, though, that soldiers wearing armour should be able to take some hits before dying, or armour and the medikit will be useless.

alinour: Please proceed with the medikit code as you have it in mind.

sirg

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 01:46:37 pm »
I see you made up your mind on armor, yet it isn't quite realistic. Actually a kevlar vest stops the bullets, preventing them from harming the body, instead of reducing their speed so the impact on the body to be less destructive. If a bullet gets through the vest, the soldier is dead, because the bullet will tumble in the body causing severe trauma.

The armor could be more vulnerable or more effective against certain types of attack, but (as stated in UFOpedia) if a plasma burst hits the body it would severely cripple the body, beyond any cure or treatment... so it's more realistic to have an armor that takes the damage instead of the soldier.

Medikits can be used also, when the soldier is wounded by splash damage, fire or melee attacks, but a direct hit unprotected by armor should be fatal. I think this is the realistic approach.. and from what I see, you ppl, are quite focused on that :)

Surrealistik

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Re: Medikits
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 10:57:55 pm »
Armour failure or degredation should be implimented, precisely because soldiers can and will take several hits, especially when healed with the medikit, so this mechanic, realistically, would certainly come into effect. This is doubly true given the capability of certain damage types to absolutely chew up protective gear. Secondly, it adds an interesting additional tactical component and consideration. If your opponent is heavy on strong armour, you may want to opt for weapons that are effective at negating it (the plasma as opposed to laser family).