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Author Topic: estimating factors for to-hit-chance  (Read 10702 times)

Offline tobbe

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estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« on: January 18, 2008, 12:10:46 pm »
Dont know if these questions belong here, but i give it a try:

It think it is really important to make your shots count -> a high damage weapon is useless if you dont hit often enough. Therefore i am searching for some information about the exact effects of the the follwiong factors (Version 2.2):

Accuracy vs. Weapon skill:
How do these two factors EXACTLY influence the chance to hit?

Their importance greatly effects my choice of troopers...right now i value accuracy over wepon skill, as accuracy is really slow to improve...

To give an example: I want to have an sniper for long range shots. Two troopers could qualify:

Nr.1:  Accuracy 27, but Sniper only 18
Nr.2:  Accuracy only 21, but Sniper 28

Which one will have a better chance to hit on, lets say, 20 "Hexes" distance (same weapon)

Range vs. Spread:

In understand that the range limit of course limits your maximum range and that spread is an indicator of the amount of misfire/the amount of spreading your single shots.

1. What does this range (e.g. range 22) actually mean? 22 feet? 22 "hexes"? 22 meters? I assume that "hexes" are meant...but then: Sniper rifles and bolters have a range of 250! That is much more than any map will ever have...are there any benefits on aiming on targets much closer than the maximum range?

2. What does spread 2,3 or 4 actually mean? How important  are these numbers? I actually know, the higher the spread, the more bullets will hit surrounding "hexes". And this might be used for additional effects (killing more than one target per shot), so i dont realy need to know the exact effects of spread for these fire modes (full auto, spray)

But when not using some full-auto, but a single shot (e. g. snap shot, aimed shot) lesser spread is perferred of course. At this point range comes into play.

Which weapon will have a better chance to hit?

Situation: Two troopers, identical accuracy and identical weapon skill. There is an enemy at 20 "hexes":

Nr. 3: Laser Pistol ( Range 60, Spread 0,4)
Nr. 4: Laser Rifle (Range 90, Spread 1)
Nr. 5: Particle Beam Rifle (Range 150, Spread 1,5)
Nr. 6: Bolter (Range 250, Spread 1,7)
Nr. 7: Sniper Rifle (Range 250, Spread 0,9)

I assume that range MUST have an impact, otherwise the CLOSE combat weapon "Laser pistol" should have the best chance to hit...and this cant be. But how BIG are the effects of spread and range combined...

One last pint: I was really pleasantly surprised by the laser weaponry. If spread has some consirable impact on the chances to hit, lasers might become actually useful for precise fire...


Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 12:34:56 pm »
How do these two factors EXACTLY influence the chance to hit?

(accuracy + weapon skill) / 200. This gives you a value between 0 and 1. Add to this 1 and you get a value between 1 and 2. This value is a modifier to the spread. A soldier with 0 accuracy and 0 skill will have twice the spread compared to a soldier who has the two stats maxed out.

Quote
1. What does this range (e.g. range 22) actually mean? 22 feet? 22 "hexes"? 22 meters? I assume that "hexes" are meant...but then: Sniper rifles and bolters have a range of 250! That is much more than any map will ever have...are there any benefits on aiming on targets much closer than the maximum range?

The range is the largest range at which you can use the weapon. It's 22 metres as far as I know. The ranges of 250 are, in a word, ludicrous.

Quote
2. What does spread 2,3 or 4 actually mean? How important  are these numbers? I actually know, the higher the spread, the more bullets will hit surrounding "hexes". And this might be used for additional effects (killing more than one target per shot), so i dont realy need to know the exact effects of spread for these fire modes (full auto, spray)

The spread values are a modifier to the random spread value rolled when you make a shot. This random value is a gaussian random value. Thus, the higher the spread value, the larger the chance that your shot will miss the mark.

Quote
I assume that range MUST have an impact, otherwise the CLOSE combat weapon "Laser pistol" should have the best chance to hit...and this cant be. But how BIG are the effects of spread and range combined...

Range has no impact at all, and yes, the laser pistol has the best chance to hit. This is as intended.

Offline tobbe

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 12:51:13 pm »
Thanks for the fast reply! This really helps!

How much is 1 movement field in metres?

Offline TumbleWeed

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2008, 09:17:18 pm »
What about strength and weapon recoil? I read that stronger soldiers make better Heavy Weapons users as they can handle the recoil better. If so, how big part does the strength have? And where are the values for gun recoils? Work in progress, maybe?

http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Skills/power
http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Skills/heavy

Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2008, 09:25:45 pm »
This part of the game is still in development. Those articles may no longer apply at the end of the road.

Offline eleazar

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 05:28:13 pm »
(accuracy + weapon skill) / 200. This gives you a value between 0 and 1. Add to this 1 and you get a value between 1 and 2. This value is a modifier to the spread. A soldier with 0 accuracy and 0 skill will have twice the spread compared to a soldier who has the two stats maxed out.

So if i understand right there's no difference between a soldier with
1) an accuracy of 30 and weapon skills all 20s
2) an accuracy of 40 and weapon skills all 10s

-- except of course that it would be confusing to compare their stats and find them identical.

So then really what's the point of the accuracy stat?
You simply have to mentally add it to each of the weapon skills to gauge how skilled a soldier will be.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 05:34:17 pm »
Precisely.

That means that a soldier who improves in one skill will be very good at that skill, assuming his accuracy also improves. But even though he doesn't train in the other skills, the increased accuracy will mean the soldier will still become more accurate with those weapons.

Offline tobbe

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2008, 06:25:04 pm »
So then really what's the point of the accuracy stat?
You simply have to mentally add it to each of the weapon skills to gauge how skilled a soldier will be.

I agree on that point. Though i really love the "tiny bits" that improve and i therefore really like to see my guys getting better, there is no need for the skill "accuracy".

Sure, one could argument that there IS a competence how well somebody might be able to aim...

But the way skill advancement works (now and probably also in future versions) Accuracy AND the weapon skill both go up with the number of kills...so why not put them together into one weapon skill. It makes the game easier to understand (the better your weapon skill is, the better you will be able to score a hit)...

So, besides for a realism argument: where is the point of having two seperate skills?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2008, 06:33:37 pm »
Didn't I just explain that?

Also, in future versions accuracy will NOT go up at the same rate as the weapon skills.

Offline eleazar

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 09:36:09 pm »
Didn't I just explain that?

I'm not sure what your explanation means, it's a bit cryptic.

If i understand the point of "accuracy" is to that the "experience point" system can grow all weapon skills at once.

But that still seems like an awkward way to do things.  It's still unnecessarily difficult to see what a soldier's actual weapon skill is, and it seems it would be just as easy to make all weapon skills increase under whatever circumstance that "accuracy" might increase.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 09:40:38 pm »
Ah, but then every soldier would be a specialist with all weapons. The accuracy skill does indeed increase performance with all weapons, but if you have good accuracy and a bad weapon skill, you're still only mediocre with that weapon. Increasing all the weapon stats directly would eliminate the effect of specializing in one weapon category.

Offline eleazar

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2008, 03:10:36 am »
Ah, but then every soldier would be a specialist with all weapons. The accuracy skill does indeed increase performance with all weapons, but if you have good accuracy and a bad weapon skill, you're still only mediocre with that weapon. Increasing all the weapon stats directly would eliminate the effect of specializing in one weapon category.

I feel like we are talking past each other.

I don't want to "Increasing all the weapon stats directly".
I was just saying that i didn't see any point to the "accuracy"

Offline tobbe

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 12:23:29 pm »
If I got that right we all agree on only increasing the skill of the weapon used. This way soldiers specialise on one, perhaps two weapon categories.  :)

The point we disagree on, is the need for an accuracy skill. I hope i got that right:

eleazar and myself perfer the idea that ONLY the weapon skill is sufficient. This way you only have calculate one skill into your considereations for choosing a soldier.

BTAxis perfers TWO seperate skills. As both skills (the APPROPRIATE weapon skill AND accuracy) improve via the same mechanism (kills), a veteran is automaticly moderately skilled in using weapons he is not specialised in, due to his improved accuracy skill.


Offline BTAxis

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2008, 12:35:49 pm »
BTAxis perfers TWO seperate skills. As both skills (the APPROPRIATE weapon skill AND accuracy) improve via the same mechanism (kills), a veteran is automaticly moderately skilled in using weapons he is not specialised in, due to his improved accuracy skill.

Important detail is that I'm currently rewriting the skill increase code to not be based on kills anymore.

You're basically right, though.

Offline tobbe

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Re: estimating factors for to-hit-chance
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2008, 12:44:08 pm »
Important detail is that I'm currently rewriting the skill increase code to not be based on kills anymore.

Well, i cant wait to see that new mechanism.

Thx for your hard work!  :)