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Author Topic: Civilians... those little buggers.  (Read 42893 times)

Smig

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2008, 05:36:56 pm »
I think you're aiming too high. I don't think so much work should be put into civies AI, all that complex behaviour would take forever to code but some basic improvements should be done.

More important than improving them and making them act as if they'd actually want to preserve their existence, I'd be happy if those things that break the game could be eliminated. I'm talking about 2 things, the most obvious has been talked a lot in this thread: civies should be coded to run in the oposite direction of aliens they can see. This should be fairly simple and would do a lot for game imersion and gameplay. If you're worried this would make it too hard for aliens, difficulty should be raised through other mechanisms instead.

The other is probably even more frustrating and I see no one talking about it but it's perhaps more dificult to fix. I'm new to the game but on 2 missions already, civilians have blocked my way in ways that made me shot them down out of frustration. In the convoy map, there's a tile to the right of the first truck, where movement is blocked in all ways because of the hill and is only possible to the left onto the road. I took cover there with a soldier when a civilian decided to end the turn on the only tile I could exit to. Ok, I thought that that was bad luck... before that vegetable decided to plant on that tile for 3 consecutive turns! The other mission where that happened was a military bunker map where one of the lower entry points is only 1 tile wide at one place and 2 civilians kept fighting for that particular spot for some reason. My soldiers were at one end of that corridor while an alien was at the other end, I couldn't do anything else other than wait the 3 turns it took for the aliens to kill them.

It would probably be easier to modify the maps to minimize those situations but it would be great if an algorythm would be developed to make the civies avoid tiles that would potentially block pathways... or at least avoid tiles they've ended their turns before so that if you're unlucky enough to be stuck, you'll only be stuck for one turn.

El Zoido

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2008, 09:50:56 pm »
on 2 missions already, civilians have blocked my way in ways that made me shot them down out of frustration.

The military installation map nearly made me cry out for that.
Every time one of my soldiers tried to go up a stairway or through a door, a civilian came, blocked it and wouldn't move anymore.
Only if none of my soldiers were close to any such obstacle, the civilians instead opted for suicide and ran to the closest alien.


Offline Kiashu

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2008, 06:09:41 am »
if a civilian is smart enough to retreat inside PHALANX' area of control from the get-go, then the aliens will almost never be able to get that civilian. In other words, it'll be too easy to save him/her. Extrapolate this to all civilians on the map, and all PHALANX needs to do to save the civilians is stand around and wait for them to show up.
Not really. Because if all the civilians cluster around the dropship then the soldiers must stay there, and then a good solid zap with something explosive can let the aliens take out all the civilians and the soldiers in one go... and if they stay to protect the civilians, how will the soldiers hunt down all the aliens?

The civilians should at least not run towards the aliens...

Sophisanmus

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2008, 09:46:50 am »
Perhaps civilians could prioritize running, and perhaps hiding, from aliens they have seen.  A second priority could be moving away from the hotter zones (i.e. areas where there has been shooting) could make them seem a little more scared and panic-y, and a little less overtly suicidal or zombie. 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2008, 12:38:14 am »
The Good Old Jagged Alliance 2 had a simple way to solve this:

1. you could click on the milita/civilian blocking your way  (telling him to bug out), and he would move next turn

2. Holding X and clicking on him, if you were on the adjecent tile, made you switch places with him. 8)

Offline Duke

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2008, 01:27:10 am »
2. Holding X and clicking on him, if you were on the adjecent tile, made you switch places with him. 8)
Haven't looked at the code, but that sounds like a quick solution to that annoying problem to me. At least much easier than developing AI strategies for civilians to 'not stand in the way'.
Oh, and maybe make it cost twice the normal TU.

BrimstoneVomit

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2009, 12:56:55 am »
Hm, a lot of great ideas floating around in here, hard to add anything of my own since the civilians have been my only source of grief while playing the 2.2.1 build. Most mentions, I think, could really wait right up until the final build seeing as how there are vastly more critical elements to concentrate on before civilian behavior.

In the short term, aside from giving civilians more TU's to act on, the only fix I see necessary to make the universe wonderful again would occur in two prioritized parts:

1. Civilians will try their best to remove themselves from alien Line of Sight.

2. Each generated map should contain at least one structure coded to be recognized as a "safehouse" by civilians, who would in turn flock to it regardless of the contents* provided it does not conflict with #1.

*I only say "regardless of the contents" because naturally aliens could be skulking around inside without being seen.

In this sense, #2 could provide more of a challenge in protecting civilians at first; Civs may have already run too short of TU's to react if/when suddenly spotting an alien in a window, and even if nothing is spotted from outside, an alien lurking further in the interior could have it as easy as waltzing into the next room and say "boo!" But through the player's deduction (spotting civilians rushing toward/inside said building(s)), it could also help the player if they can secure the building(s) early and set up a defensive while other agents hunt down the aliens outside.

Sure it could be a little more refined. If a civilian starts in an enclosed room, regardless if within the "safehouse," they ought to stay put. Perhaps this idea is best suited for those out in the open. It's a thought, though.

In the long term, I'd be happy to see many of the ideas here incorporated, including:

- Civ "Mood"/Morale affects.
- Phalanx commands and sedation/retrieval methods.
- Self-defense abilities, albeit primitive. For instance, in the time it takes Phalanx to respond, any armed officials should already have given it a shot and died (e.g. police), leaving unarmored civilians with kitchen knives or the occasional handgun wetting themselves in their homes.
- The option to escape maps with survivors for Terror Attacks only. Otherwise, let's say for Military Bunker or Excavation Site attacks, it should remain mandatory to kill all aliens to preserve these tactical locations and not just the civilians.

These rascals could in many ways be a great device to enhance gameplay... When this project is pronounced "done." But immediately? I'd just be happy if they weren't blatantly suicidal.

Brimmy V.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 01:05:44 am by BrimstoneVomit »

blueberrypirate

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2009, 01:29:57 pm »
Stun the civilians.

*lol*  does that work?  Does it count as a death for them?

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 01:31:35 pm »
No, stunning civilians is, at the moment, a prime method of getting them out of the way. Obviously this is something that needs to be improved.

Offline geever

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 01:44:47 pm »
No, stunning civilians is, at the moment, a prime method of getting them out of the way. Obviously this is something that needs to be improved.

That was the method in XCOM either. Aand a method to save them in terror missions. :)

-geever

Offline Coconut Jonlan

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2009, 12:52:25 am »
The Good Old Jagged Alliance 2 had a simple way to solve this:

1. you could click on the milita/civilian blocking your way  (telling him to bug out), and he would move next turn

2. Holding X and clicking on him, if you were on the adjecent tile, made you switch places with him. 8)

nice solution - gets my vote

Offline vedrit

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2009, 03:04:25 am »
I vote for being able to knock out the civ by hitting them. Walk up to them and smack them till they are KO

Offline Coconut Jonlan

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2009, 12:52:57 am »
I vote for being able to knock out the civ by hitting them. Walk up to them and smack them till they are KO

Funnily enough I feel like doing that in real life sometimes - but to keep an element of realism in the game I think either have the civs run away from everyone or have a simple "Bug Out!" command - at least that way they don't end up blocking doorways and corridors for multiple turns.

Offline vedrit

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2009, 02:22:40 am »
I meant my suggestion both seriously and jokatively. If I hit you hard enough, I could knock you out. Surly the soldiers are strong enough to KO a civ (Though aliens would be another matter)
This could be a very simple and effective means to...temporarily remove living obstacles

Offline Coconut Jonlan

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Re: Civilians... those little buggers.
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2009, 01:26:42 pm »
I meant my suggestion both seriously and jokatively. If I hit you hard enough, I could knock you out. Surly the soldiers are strong enough to KO a civ (Though aliens would be another matter)
This could be a very simple and effective means to...temporarily remove living obstacles

Its not the case that the soldiers wouldn't be capable - its more that they are under orders to protect civs - not harm them - so they woud have neither the orders nor the inclination to throw punches at them.
you don't see UN peacekeepers delivering left hooks to civs in order to keep them out of harms way