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Offline Mattn

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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2007, 08:19:00 am »
the images must not be that small all over the game. there may be places where they are shown bigger - e.g. a popup which will display the images after clicking them in full size is imageable - and reasonable - due to the great details in your paintings.

but the layout of our menus... what should i say - everybody can feel free to present alternatives - i would implement the ability to switch between different images - like done for the hud. but the underlaying menu scripts must be the same - so tweaking or adding one menu would end up in tweaking or adding this menu to all other themes, too

Blywulf

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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2007, 08:34:57 am »
Quote from: "Mattn"
the images must not be that small all over the game. there may be places where they are shown bigger - e.g. a popup which will display the images after clicking them in full size is imageable - and reasonable - due to the great details in your paintings.


That's one way to solve the issue but I cant say that I like it. I believe that the images and the text should be percieved simultaneously, creating a homogeneous experience for the player. If you add them as clickable thumbnails then they will not contribute to the general atmosphere of the game as strong as they would if they were presented in their full size along with the text... but that's just my opinion.

Offline Voller

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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2007, 10:11:02 am »
Will they be displayed in the ufopedia itself as well? I like the style of the old x-com with text on the left and a large picture on the right.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2007, 02:25:43 pm »
Quote from: "Winter"
Also, Zenerka, why are the research result images being displayed in the research screen before they are researched? That's not the idea . . .
Nah, that's okay. The graphical representation of the finished research can be displayed before the topic is actually researched. Scientists usually come up with a model image to represent a project even if the results aren't in, so it can be justified.
More importantly, the images on the research screen help a lot towards making that research topic mean something to the player. It makes it more than just a name and a number, and that counts for a lot.

Offline Winter

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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2007, 09:45:01 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
Nah, that's okay. The graphical representation of the finished research can be displayed before the topic is actually researched. Scientists usually come up with a model image to represent a project even if the results aren't in, so it can be justified.
More importantly, the images on the research screen help a lot towards making that research topic mean something to the player. It makes it more than just a name and a number, and that counts for a lot.


I disagree. The image should be reserved for the UFOpaedia. The size at which the images are being displayed in the research screen doesn't do anyone any good, and their presence reduces the feeling of achievement for actually finishing research -- getting to see a beautiful new image that wasn't available before. That was one of the reasons why research was my favourite part of X-COM.

Regardless of whether or not it can be justified, it's at best a misuse and at worst a waste of this material.

I fully share Blywulf's opinion in this thread. We need to take full advantage of the art, which means giving it a good amount of space directly into the interface. Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.

Regards,
Winter

Offline Zenerka

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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2007, 10:46:50 pm »
Quote from: "Winter"
The image should be reserved for the UFOpaedia.

Because?
Quote from: "Winter"
The size at which the images are being displayed in the research screen doesn't do anyone any good, and their presence reduces the feeling of achievement for actually finishing research -- getting to see a beautiful new image that wasn't available before. That was one of the reasons why research was my favourite part of X-COM.

You are being naive when thinking that everyone will feel a rush and immediately go to UFOpedia to read articles and see the pictures. This kind of thinking leads to exactly what you wrote - that is wasting of this great Blywulf's material.
Quote from: "Winter"
I fully share Blywulf's opinion in this thread. We need to take full advantage of the art, which means giving it a good amount of space directly into the interface.

If this is your only real concern, I see no problem: the images in UFOpedia can be used as-is, with different sizes - according to mattn's response that is doable code-wise.
That does not mean such images needs to be used with such dimensions everywhere.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2007, 11:03:17 pm »
Quote from: "Winter"
Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.

I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess. Anyway, I maintain that using smaller versions of the art are a big improvement over using only a few lines of text, especially in the case of weaponry.

Wanderer

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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2007, 11:05:31 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
Quote from: "Winter"
Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.

I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess. Anyway, I maintain that using smaller versions of the art are a big improvement over using only a few lines of text, especially in the case of weaponry.


Why can't the text be as long (or as short), as you want it, with the image placed with a right flush placement, and have the text simply wrap it?  It can be as big (or small) as the image needs to be then, the text is perfectly happy, and those of us (like me) who only care about what I get and what's next to research can flip past it to the bottom without much care.

I guess I just feel like I spend one hour in a single map vs. the 30 seconds I flip past a research project (that on the 10th time playing I just want to go away).  It's really pretty, and I like the art, and Blywolf does amazing stuff.  However, the 23rd time I'm in a project, I really don't care.  Can't it be kept both simple and effective (like just about any document software and HTML can do right now)?

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2007, 11:09:01 pm »
Quote from: "Wanderer"
Why can't the text be as long (or as short), as you want it, with the image placed with a right flush placement, and have the text simply wrap it?  It can be as big (or small) as the image needs to be then, the text is perfectly happy, and those of us (like me) who only care about what I get and what's next to research can flip past it to the bottom without much care.


Are we talking about the same screen? There really isn't that much space in that panel. Wrapped text would only have a few words per line, and that's very annoying to read.

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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2007, 11:11:13 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
Are we talking about the same screen? There really isn't that much space in that panel. Wrapped text would only have a few words per line, and that's very annoying to read.


We're discussing the research results screen that you would see via UFOpaedia or from clicking on a mail link, I thought.

Maybe my widescreen alters my perspective.

Offline BTAxis

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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2007, 11:12:15 pm »
No no, I was talking about the panel to the right of the research screen. Most of that screen is taken up by the list with available technologies.

Wanderer

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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2007, 11:16:04 pm »
Quote from: "BTAxis"
No no, I was talking about the panel to the right of the research screen. Most of that screen is taken up by the list with available technologies.


Um... oh.  I retract my statement... well part of it... um... who cares what image is over there?  A thumbnail on that screen would do me fine, or nothing at all where I had to go into into the 'paedia entry to see it...

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« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2007, 12:32:15 am »
Quote from: "Zenerka"
You are being naive when thinking that everyone will feel a rush and immediately go to UFOpedia to read articles and see the pictures. This kind of thinking leads to exactly what you wrote - that is wasting of this great Blywulf's material.


The thing is, seeing all the stuff before you actually discover it is like knowing what your christmas presents look like way before they are unwrapped. There's no thrill involved. I'm not saying that looking at static pics is what makes a game fun. I also doubt that checking out the UFOpaedia would be the first thing I'd do after installing UFO:AI. However, those images do  contribute to the game's general feel and have an impact on the player's experience. They should be viewed as a reward and that's why I'd like to keep them hidden till they are unlocked through research (along with all the stuff that influences the game directly, like new weapons and gear).

BTW I seriously hope that a complete research tree will not be available
before new research possibilities appear.

Quote from: "BTAxis"
I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess.


You're correct. I'm one of those guys who enjoyed both text and pics in X-Com's UFOpaedia. It was like reading a book with cool illustrations.

Quote from: "Wanderer"
However, the 23rd time I'm in a project, I really don't care.


Not caring about details after having played the game 23 times is a natural thing. Wouldnt you like to be given eye candies quite often while playing for the first time though? Besides, if you lose interest in the artwork then you surely skip the text as well. It's still not a reason to make stories shorter or research info more vague.

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« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2007, 12:43:14 am »
Quote from: "Blywulf"
Not caring about details after having played the game 23 times is a natural thing. Wouldnt you like to be given eye candies quite often while playing for the first time though? Besides, if you lose interest in the artwork then you surely skip the text as well. It's still not a reason to make stories shorter or research info more vague.


Unfortunately, I incorrectly understood where you were discussing the image being made available.  Since the 'we've got a project' and a 'completed project' are two different sections in the 'paedia, I didn't understand the location of the problem... nor the impact.

Yeah, I don't see why we shouldn't just show a big ole '?' for unresearched items, and pretty candy when you get it... at the same time, the research selection screen I can't see needing anything more then a thumbnail after research completion as a reminder... if I wanna see the 'real picture', I'd enter into the UFOpaedia... which can have all of that and more and only available after it's researched.

Offline Zenerka

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« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2007, 06:54:57 pm »
Quote from: "Blywulf"
The thing is, seeing all the stuff before you actually discover it is like knowing what your christmas presents look like way before they are unwrapped. There's no thrill involved.

But users already - not considering the research menu - can see the pictures before researching - in mail client/UFOpedia, per proposal view, so it is not an argument.

Quote from: "Blywulf"
However, those images do  contribute to the game's general feel and have an impact on the player's experience. They should be viewed as a reward and that's why I'd like to keep them hidden till they are unlocked through research (along with all the stuff that influences the game directly, like new weapons and gear).

These images have one main purpose: they are supposed to represent research topic in visual form. I definitely disagree about that they should be taken as "reward" - what is it supposed to be? Giving a cookie to users using UFOpedia??

Quote from: "Blywulf"
BTW I seriously hope that a complete research tree will not be available before new research possibilities appear.

Of course, that is out of a question. As far as I know we have unique and great storyline. Spoiling it by showing whole research tree like in Civilization would kill the pleasure.