2D Art

[Winter]

But users already - not considering the research menu - can see the pictures before researching - in mail client/UFOpedia, per proposal view, so it is not an argument.

Blywulf and I are arguing that players shouldn't be able to see the pictures before researching. I like the 'question mark' solution put forth by Wanderer, or maybe even create unique pre-research images if possible. Using the post-research image in a proposal doesn't make sense to me logically or design-wise.

These images have one main purpose: they are supposed to represent research topic in visual form. I definitely disagree about that they should be taken as "reward" - what is it supposed to be? Giving a cookie to users using UFOpedia??

They are supposed to represent the finished research topic. Not the proposal. That is the basis from which I've been operating, and it's the only one I think is sensible. I had no idea you guys were planning to use the art like this, and I'm very much against this implementation. It's like giving the player a book with the ending drawn in detail on the cover.

Regards,
Winter

[Zenerka]

They are supposed to represent the finished research topic. Not the proposal.

Then why they are being used with research proposals in UFOpedia/email client for ages? I am sure you saw this in both 2.1.0 and 2.1.1 (laser tech).

[Winter]

Then why they are being used with research proposals in UFOpedia/email client for ages? I am sure you saw this in both 2.1.0 and 2.1.1 (laser tech).

Don't ask me why they've been used like that, nobody ever talked to me about it. I never noticed before because I don't get the chance to actually play the game very much, and I don't usually bother with lasers as I prefer Bolters and plasma. Also, we never had UFOpaedia images before.

Regards,
Winter

[Zenerka]

I never noticed before because I don't get the chance to actually play the game very much

You are sooo funny
Fine. My suggestion for you now: go play current trunk version of the game. Notice ALL the things implemented there. Prepare a list what should be removed.
Till that happens I won't do single piece of code because I don't like to waste my time doing things which are to be removed because "you did not notice before" something.

[Winter]

You are sooo funny
Fine. My suggestion for you now: go play current trunk version of the game. Notice ALL the things implemented there. Prepare a list what should be removed.
Till that happens I won't do single piece of code because I don't like to waste my time doing things which are to be removed because "you did not notice before" something.

I don't want anything to be removed. I'm just thinking that we won't be getting individual pre-research images anytime soon, and the brilliant stuff that Blywulf is doing really needs to be restricted for post-research UFOpaedia articles. You can't show an autopsy image before the autopsy actually happens.

You're right in saying that I should've stayed on top of things better, and I accept full responsibility. The only thing I can say in my defence is that I've had a trying couple of months and haven't been able to work on or play UFO:AI as much as I'd like except in an admin capacity. I'll try and get involved again more, although it may be difficult as I'll be working more 12-hour days for the next couple of weeks.

On the bright side, though, I'll be getting a machine of my own again next week and will be able to reinstall the game.

I think the question-mark idea is actually a good one (at least for a placeholder) as it evokes/maintains a sense of mystery. I'd also like to propose having one or more team meetings to improve communications. I could do with some getting up to speed, especially as I haven't been able to attend IRC much lately.

Regards,
Winter

[BTAxis]

All right, time to kiss and make up again. This is turning into a row, and it's not helping.

On topic, I'm perfectly happy with pre-research images that aren't the same as the post-research ones Blywulf is doing now. My main concern is making the research screen more interesting and involved. Using the post-research images is a cheap way to do it (in terms of labor), but I admit it's not the best solution.

[teej]

Blywulf, your work rocks and I agree with you completely that research results, including images, shouldn't be unveiled until the research has been completed.  I like the idea of a general research proposal image, a little more involved than a question mark.  Like some researchers busy at work -- the early laser research comes to mind, though a bit more generic.  Some guys hunched over an experiment.  Someone with your skills could even produce a template with the lab in layers and place a more appropriate item on the bench for different types of research, and finally specific research proposal images could be developed for key plot points and such... time permitting of course.  Thanks for setting the bar so high on this artwork.

Winter and Zen, I caught your dialog on the chat.  I know you guys will sleep it off and find some common ground again tomorrow.  I can tell you are both really invested in this effort and have been able to collaborate effectively for a long time.  Design direction changes, work gets abandoned, things are overlooked... I'm sure it's not personal.  I'm not sure if there is a a spec channel I'm missing, but from what I can tell looking through my keyhole is that this is more feature "addition" than "redefinition" anyway.  If a new resource like a kick ass artist appears out of the clear blue, there may be some resultant ripples in the water to take advantage.

Now, back to work.

[Wanderer]

On topic, I'm perfectly happy with pre-research images that aren't the same as the post-research ones Blywulf is doing now. My main concern is making the research screen more interesting and involved.

I'm not entirely sure there's a way to make a research list screen... involved.  If anything, I'd like it simplified.  Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one.  Let me see estimated MAN-hours for completion.  Let that get closer to the truth as they work through the research.  Then lemme get out of there.  

The only time I typically head into the research screen is one of two reasons.  1) Research completes and I've got bored scientists who I need to decide where they go next.  2) A mission is about to launch and I want to see how long it'll be before I can use (X) weapon that there's 20 of in my storage facility and noone can find the trigger on.  Just in case I want to wait a few hours and let my guys equip up.  Oh, and on rare occassions, 3) I don't remember where something's in the UFOpaedia and I want to shortcut there.

So, I think if you simplify the console to make #1 and #2 simple and easy to do, the rest should take care of itself.  It should be fast and quick to use without excess on replay, and easily accesses the UFOpaedia.orgrmation for first timers.

[BTAxis]

If anything, I'd like it simplified.  Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one.  Let me see estimated MAN-hours for completion.  Let that get closer to the truth as they work through the research.  Then lemme get out of there.  

The only time I typically head into the research screen is one of two reasons.  1) Research completes and I've got bored scientists who I need to decide where they go next.  2) A mission is about to launch and I want to see how long it'll be before I can use (X) weapon that there's 20 of in my storage facility and noone can find the trigger on.  Just in case I want to wait a few hours and let my guys equip up.  Oh, and on rare occassions, 3) I don't remember where something's in the UFOpaedia and I want to shortcut there.

It's a little different for me. When I'm in the research screen, I usually don't assign free scientists just like that, assuming there's more than one research item available. I usually spend some time judging which topic I need most at the moment, cycling through them all and checking their descriptions. A little image to the side would add a lot to my experience.

[blondandy]

Regarding the look of the research screen.

I'm not entirely sure there's a way to make a research list screen... involved. If anything, I'd like it simplified. Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one

I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.

Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.

(I think Zen and Winter should be forced to stand outside the headmasters office until they shake hands.)

[Winter]

I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.

Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.

Bloody hell. That kind of interface would make me scream, shut down the game and flee in terror. It's about as opaque and confusing as you can get. It overloads new players with useless information and presents it in an extremely confusing manner. I don't think it's a very good piece of interface design.

What we need for an interface change, all over the game, is something simpler that makes better use of the screen space, rather than wasting most of it on the huge grey frames we've got now. Something more elegant. Unfortunately it's a long way away from being implemented, unless we get a new coder who's willing to go the distance.

Regards,
Winter

[blondandy]

I think we have several coders who are working very hard. And I can see that you have worked very hard too.

come on - think *conciliatory tone*.

BTW - I agree about space the frames take up.

[Bonbadil]

I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.

Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.

Bloody hell. That kind of interface would make me scream, shut down the game and flee in terror. It's about as opaque and confusing as you can get. It overloads new players with useless information and presents it in an extremely confusing manner. I don't think it's a very good piece of interface design.

You should try it before (http://www.freeorion.org/), because it might seem confusing, but it doesn't in reality ! I have use it, and I really think it's a great interface.
And the research queue is a blessing
I will try to find a better screenshot, more representative...

[Winter]

I think we have several coders who are working very hard. And I can see that you have worked very hard too.

come on - think *conciliatory tone*.

BTW - I agree about space the frames take up.

Eh? I wasn't implying anything bad about our coders, and I have always held them in the highest regard. I was just saying that they're really busy with all the stuff they're doing (like the awesome stuff being implemented for air battles and 3d geoscape), so things like interface changes aren't going to get bumped up their priority queue when they're dealing with more important features.

Regards,
Winter

[Wanderer]

It's a little different for me. When I'm in the research screen, I usually don't assign free scientists just like that, assuming there's more than one research item available. I usually spend some time judging which topic I need most at the moment, cycling through them all and checking their descriptions. A little image to the side would add a lot to my experience.

The only time I'd be interested in more then a name, completion rate, and # scientists allotted would be the first time something came up on my research list... and then I'd visit the UFOpaedia.  

I'm thinking more in replay value and ease of interface use with familiarity then first timers who need to go in and look at each and every article to get familiar with the concepts.  The first time through people are going to want to learn a lot (hopefully)... so they'll be in the UFOPaedia anyway.  After that... who cares, really?  Storyline, storyline, storyline, oh, there's the storyline one that attacks the UN, hold off on that one... so on...

And sure, a picture might be nice, but I agree with Winter and Bly on that... it would need to be a different image then the 'result' picture.  Just doesn't make sense.

First time play and goodies makes a game interesting to a new user.  Replayability keeps a game alive.  A balance here should be struck.