The SMG... godsend or overpowered?

[Wanderer]

I've been goofing around with just using Secondary weapons in hard mode.

Now, the pistols kinda stink, but that's okay, they should.  However, has anyone else noticed that an SMG on full auto can rock an alien that you could Inferno with the flamethrower and he laughs at you?

The aim's not bad... certainly no worse then the sniper at short range... and my snipers at 90% crouched can't hit something a screen or two over usually anyway.  It's light, the ammo packs easily, and you can run around with a few grenades for those 'round the corner' shots. RF on it seems pretty regular, as well, and it's a burst fire.

So, my team:
- My guy with the riot shotgun can pepper a target with sabot rounds and hopefully knock down something at range in 2 salvos.
- My assault rifle fires all over the place and can usually take something out, but has decent range but not much better then the SMG.
- The grenade launcher occassionally does stupid levels of damage, especially around corners or if the enemy's grouped.  I'm just as likely to bounce the grenades off the map or smack them off an invisible beam and blow my own team up occassionally.
- The flamethrower requires me to leave a guy's butt hanging out in the wind due to range unless he cremates everything around.  They're great for hitting multiple aliens all lined up in a row... which happens... never?
- My snipers are burning off TU's for halfhearted shots at long range because they can't do crap in close.  Once the alien's turn starts, they're burgermeat.  Only highly useful, at best, on 1/4 maps.  Especially when the Alien's Particle Rifle has better aim then my trained soldier with a scope.
- The SMG chews up aliens like they were jokes at short-medium range, and fires so many rounds you could hand it to a blind baby in a stroller and hit something.

I haven't gotten them into the Medium armor aliens yet, but so far, they seem like the primier weapon of choice for enemy obliteration, especially in early game.

Thoughts?

[Kaerius]

Personally, I prefer both the grenade launchers and sniper rifles...

You just gotta make sure you give the sniper rifles to people who have both decent accuracy, and decent sniper skill. I tend to pair them up and turn them into reaction fire deathsquads.

Grenade launchers are a veritable swiss army firearm. The first thing I do in a new game is build some flechette rounds for them. That way I can either use them for splash damage mayhem, or turn them into smg-like weapons. A tripple shot flechette is basically a guaranteed kill at short-mid range, for 14 TUs(less than smg full auto.) And the single shot is more potent than the smg burst mode for 8 TU instead of 9.

Occasionally I also use the rocket launchers in the beginning(not enough snipers/grenade launchers.) They're quite effective.

My first 3 researches go into making heavy laser and ammo for it though, since it's the best weapon in the game, no questions asked.

[Pariah]

While I don't think I have used the SMG, except for maybe once, I have used the 7.62mm Pistol, the Machine Pistol and the Micro Shotgun. The 7.62mm will get you killed using it, so the first thing I do is sell all of those. The Micro Shotgun actually works early on, but once they show up in armor, move on. The Machine Pistol is the one that surprised me, because if the first burst didn't drop them, then the second normally would, and if it took a third burst, I normally had enough AP's for a 3rd. Where all of these weapons fail is in reactionary fire.

Kaerius is right though, the Heavy Laser is a priority to research, because I find that weapon over powering. It is one weapon that mid to late game that will kill an alien with reactionary fire, more often then not.

I am thinknig that maybe the research tree needs to be tweaked so that, like in Xcom, you have to research the laser pistol and the laser rifle before you can get the heavy laser.

Here is a question I will ask because I don't remember reading it elsewhere. Regarding dual pistols, the UFOPaedia states that the laser pistols would be ideal for someone to wield two of them. Has that been implimented into the game? Will it?

Thanks all,

Albert - Pariah - eastwoodaen

[breversa]

Here is a question I will ask because I don't remember reading it elsewhere. Regarding dual pistols, the UFOPaedia states that the laser pistols would be ideal for someone to wield two of them. Has that been implimented into the game? Will it?

Well, if you wanna keep UFO:AI a bit realistic (sci-fi does NOT mean physics don't apply any longer !), I hope this feature never makes it in this game (or any other realistic on), for one reason : the way AIMING works for a human being.

As I was taught in the army, and as I teach new recruits, aiming is lining THREE items : your (director) eye, your weapon sighting system and your target...

So if you're wielding TWO weapons, how could you possibly aim them  at the same time ? Unless you have TWO director and independant eyes (like a chameleon), it's just impossible for a human...

And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing.

[Winter]

Well, if you wanna keep UFO:AI a bit realistic (sci-fi does NOT mean physics don't apply any longer !), I hope this feature never makes it in this game (or any other realistic on), for one reason : the way AIMING works for a human being.

As I was taught in the army, and as I teach new recruits, aiming is lining THREE items : your (director) eye, your weapon sighting system and your target...

So if you're wielding TWO weapons, how could you possibly aim them  at the same time ? Unless you have TWO director and independant eyes (like a chameleon), it's just impossible for a human...

And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing.

I'm with you on that, but most FPS-monkeys and such people will whine and demand if there is no dual-wielding feature. To me, an ideal solution would be to include it, but treat it with complete realism -- to make dual-wielded pistols suck as much as they do in real life.

Regards,
Winter

[breversa]

He he, yeah, why not... But you could also save the hassle of implementing such sucking feature into the game !
What's more, those FPS-monkeys will then whine because such feature exists but sucks so much... so why have it ?

Oh, and by the way... The SMG model needs at the very least a folding stock and sighting system, either iron sights (most probably obsolete in 2084 though... Red dot or holographic sights would probably be standard by then) or optic.

The same actually goes for some other weapons, but I think I'll start a thread on that matter for 3D artists who want to make their weapons look more realistic.

[Surrealistik]

And don't tell me about unaimed shooting : if you don't plan to aim, don't plan to shoot, unless you plan on missing.

He he, yeah, why not... But you could also save the hassle of implementing such sucking feature into the game !  
What's more, those FPS-monkeys will then whine because such feature exists but sucks so much... so why have it ?  

At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.

As for the heavy laser, it is a pitiful weapon, and far from the best in the game (in fact I consider it to be easily amongst the lower tier ones). Its only notable strength lies in its ability to project accurate fire power at long/extreme ranges. However, in addition to the weapon being overly situational, the circumstances in which it is applicable are rare. This all aside it is easily outperformed by particle beam weaponry, save at the very longest distances.

My patch which may be found here addresses the short comings of the Laser series, as well as introduces critical rebalancing and revisions to various other weapons and gear, including those that better correlate them with their design suggestions and UFOpedia description. Please note that the changelog is currently somewhat outdated at the moment in that it does not reflect changes made to bolster the shotgun family. These modifications were necessary as this weapon subset was previously ineffective due to exceptionally low Damage/TU ratios compounded with blast type damage (which is the type most armour features the highest resistance to).

Finally, to address the topic, the SoD, or SMG of Doom as I like to call it, has signifigantly declined in power since my inital praise of the weapon on the project's IRC channel. Though still very useful, its substantially reduced Damage/TU ratio has made it more on par with alternative conventional weaponry. It is no longer the degenerate superweapon it used to be.

EDIT: Patch URL updated. Minor clarifications made.

[breversa]

At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.

Granted, but at such short range that it's only one or two squares away from hand-to-hand. But well, that's what point blank means, isn't it ?
Still, I'm yet to be informed of any "real life" armed force using this method...

What's more, although dual pistols wielding might not suck that much, wouldn't a flamethrower be more effective ? And come to think of it, reloading time of dual pistols should be more than twice the TU cost of reloading one pistol, as no hand is free. That feature would increase the "suck factor" on the long run (= more than one magazine worth of ammo).

But over with this and back to the SoG.

[Surrealistik]

Granted, but at such short range that it's only one or two squares away from hand-to-hand. But well, that's what point blank means, isn't it ?  
Still, I'm yet to be informed of any "real life" armed force using this method...  

Probably because no armed force issues dual pistols, justifyably so given the circumstances typical to most conflicts (see next sentence), the availibility of assault weapons, and the fact that your typical grunt isn't as resilient as an alien armoured with nanotube technology making the extra firepower unneeded.  As well, combat on average in real life tends to take place at distances signifigantly greater than those more typical to gameplay in UFO:AI.

What's more, although dual pistols wielding might not suck that much, wouldn't a flamethrower be more effective ? And come to think of it, reloading time of dual pistols should be more than twice the TU cost of reloading one pistol, as no hand is free. That feature would increase the "suck factor" on the long run (= more than one magazine worth of ammo).

A doubled (or more) reload TU cost is fine, and as for flamethrowers, while they're definitely more effective at close range, pistols are less encumbering, and easier to wield with grenades, in addition, they possess greater versality when it comes to range (you do not have to dual wield all the time, it's worthwhile only at close/point blank ranges).

[Winter]

At very close range/point blank encounters, dual wielding is realistic, applicable and plausible. Inaccuracy isn't of much concern given that the considerable spread and deviance which would accompany this kind of maneuver is minimally impactful at such distances. That said, combat occurs in SP/MP at these ranges frequently enough that the feature would be useful given the increase in Damage/TU ratios it would afford. Thus it would not "suck" so much as be situational. Smart players would utilize it accordingly.

It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.

If I had to engage in a gunfight in real life, I'd be much happier with an SMG or Micro Shotgun than two handguns. At least then I'd have a realistic chance of fighting back.

Regards,
Winter

[Surrealistik]

It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.

It is 'realistic' to use dual handguns at close/point blank range if you need additional firepower and you don't have access to said rifles/smgs/other assault weapon as is the case for most (sadly not all) civilians in North America (however a single handgun is usually more than sufficient in most cases). Shotguns are admittedly viable alternatives thanks to their accessibility, but can be difficult to conceal, and often do not enjoy the same magazine size, range (in the event you do need to peg someone at a distance; obviously you do not dual wield your pistols in this case), fire rate and penetration (flechette rounds aside; you're probably not getting those) of powerful handguns. Again, it is situational.

If I had to engage in a gunfight in real life, I'd be much happier with an SMG or Micro Shotgun than two handguns. At least then I'd have a realistic chance of fighting back.

Well sure, assuming you're free to pick whatever weapon you want. However in reality, the best firearm you could probably get is some form of non-assault weaponry (especially true given that you live in the UK). That said, you would certainly stand an appreciable chance with two high powered pistols when in close proximity to your target (and at further distances, you can still do quite a bit of harm by accurately discharging one of them).

This all aside, in game there is a use for dual wielding, despite the ability to choose from a vast array of more powerful weapons, due to encumberance concerns, and convenience associated with pistol use (one hand is free to hold grenades/medikits, etc... until in a situation where dual wielding is advantageous). Pistols also often remain sufficiently lethal and/or long ranged given laser, plasma and particle beam incarnations. In fact, dual wielding these weapons offers greater firepower than most of their larger counterparts since they enjoy, or lack many of the same capabilities (especially autofire), making up for weaker individual shots and inaccuracy through sheer volume of fire.

[breversa]

It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.

I strongly support this point.

BTW, for those of you who have never fired a real pistol, if you ever get a chance, don't miss it ! You'll realize soon enough that you have so many things to master (stance, aiming, breath control, trigger pressure/jerking, limp wrist, recoil, muzzle blast, misfires, jams, reloading, etc.) to simply hit consistently one target that you just will NOT want to try with dual guns...

[Wanderer]

It's never 'realistic'. At best it's plausible because of some jackass who thinks it looks cool. If you're going to use both hands anyway, then a two-handed weapon -- particularly a rifle -- is always more powerful than two handguns. Always, no variation, no argument possible.

I strongly support this point.

BTW, for those of you who have never fired a real pistol, if you ever get a chance, don't miss it ! You'll realize soon enough that you have so many things to master (stance, aiming, breath control, trigger pressure/jerking, limp wrist, recoil, muzzle blast, misfires, jams, reloading, etc.) to simply hit consistently one target that you just will NOT want to try with dual guns...

Of course I do.  I wanna look cool just like my movie heros...

(Oh shit, Wanderer is here again, CLEAR THE RANGE! EVERYONE OUT!)

(What'd I do?  Bah, screw 'em.  *BLAMBLAMBLAM*)

(Maintenance comes in later to fix the windows, the broken overhead lighting, and a couple of damaged lockers)

[Alex]

I'd like a chance to fire a real pistol...  The largest weapon I've fired is an Air Rifle, closely followed by a BB pistol...  

However, for the two-hands argument, if anyone's got access to those shooting gallery arcade games like Point Blank etc, try playing with both of the guns and you'll soon see how hard it is to be accurate.  The rate of fire boost isn't that tremendous either.

As for reloading, wouldn't you have to mess around to eject the magazine, find a new one, insert it, cock the pistol, etc?  Having both hands full might make this a tad more difficult and time consuming.

[breversa]

I remember playing Virtua Cop on my Sega Saturn years ago with dual pistols. Accuracy was just terrible with the second pistol, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (the accuracy of the other one was decrased as well), and rate of fire was indeed lower than rapid-firing with only one gun.

I quickly dropped one gun and resumed with only one...