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Author Topic: Survival problem using smoke - enemy attack without spotting.  (Read 1151 times)

Offline nick87720z

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Survival problem using smoke - enemy attack without spotting.
« on: September 04, 2020, 02:57:50 pm »
Previous times I successfuly used smoke to prevent enemy attacking soldier without getting right to next tile near him. At such distance units are usually spoted if in field of view (3 squares in front of my soldier, side squares are out). As result, enemy could not attack without reaction fire. Of course if enemy did not split spotter/attacker roles between different units.

Now I try latest July master commit (build near of mid-august), finally decided to master very hard level. I'm not sure, is it due to difficulty or code change (probably regression), but at least in some cases none of my soldiers spoted anyone (no even dedicated spotter) before being attacked. Smoke definitely works even if soldier stays at last covered tile before open area (otherwise reaction fire would be triggered from there too).

Examples (usually with shevaar, though could be with tamans too):

1. At mansion with panic room defense objective, minimal version (no garden part, spawning near underground far entrance).
- Two soldiers, one sabot-shotgunner with bomberman approaching underground service transport entrance in main building, shevaar is wondering inside. Those men are staying so, that full slope width is in fov (even if enemy passed behind, there would be spotting message with camera movement). People where attacked when slightly more than half of slope length remained, shevaar still was inside. Noone was ever spoted. I'm just not sure if attacker got close. On next round I discovered possible attacker (one shevaar outside) at side upstair (spoted with men, approaching main entrance). No way shevaar could do it if approached where could be spoted.
1.1. Same, but with armored taman with plasma rifle, this time it did not move after shot, yet it was right near of jalousie gates. Both cases - there is no dedicated spotter.
1.2. Other case on same mission - two men approaching to farthest (service non-underground) entrance. Again shevaar. Men stoped behind protrusion from side wall, before light column and car. One right behind protrusion, second near. Shevaar ended at other side of protrusion, right in inner corner, still trying to fire - probably to second one. Though this time line of fire reliably crossed protrusion.
2. Military bunker map. Several man approaching left entrance (ground level). Sabot-shotgunner in middle of corridor (3 tiles wide), filled by smoke. By some reason only 2 tiles wide part was filled. Two more man ended up right befind that part: sniper, who made two shots to shevaar inside (at entrance to baracks at left). Shotgunner, from seating missed 4 shots, left last for reaction fire (it was expert-level, but distance was maximum for sabot shotgun). Shotgunner was several tiles back from entrance corridor end. I don't know, who was target, but that shotgunner got hit, than that shevaar fall to sleep closest to split wall, leading to lift. There was shevaar in room, pretty able to shoot and hide remaining soldiers (that highly wanted sniper), but it only ended closer to barrack door.

Offline anonymissimus

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Re: Survival problem using smoke - enemy attack without spotting.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2020, 12:34:18 am »
To be honest, I have problems imagining the depicted situations. Perhaps some (or a lot of small) screenshots could help.
Aliens try to hide behind corners and such when they fire on you, in an attempt to disable your reaction fire, and also move behind cover after their shot. Perhaps that's what you experience ?

On very hard, you generally can't use reaction fire, basically. Because even if you hit, the attacker still doesn't die from it, which very likely means your soldier is dead. This is because the damage (both inflicted and received) is vastly scaled in favour of the aliens. So, one loss, but still no kill. Not good enough, you'll lose.
I always put valuable soldiers right into smoke no matter how they cry about it. Generally, the mission is over before the stun damage comes into affect. The only really useful reaction fire situation is a plasma blaster, as its ball generally insta-kills a sheevar that comes running. But only cannon fodder soldiers can take on this risk.

Offline nick87720z

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Re: Survival problem using smoke - enemy attack without spotting.
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2020, 11:02:56 am »
Quote
I always put valuable soldiers right into smoke no matter how they cry about it.
I did not mention in situation description, that soldiers stay in smoke, as it's in topic title. It's exactly about cases when attacked soldiers are in smoke. When played very hard at slightly earlier revision, I don't remember anyone in smoke being attacked without previously spotted by someone (if someone can seem me in smoke, I'm likely to see him if he is in scope of whomever he sees).
I'm not sure, how screenshots could help... may be videos could. Or... well, if only I made battlescape projection then added text comments. Could try next time (hope, these static maps are available for skirmish).

As for effectiveness of RF, it's situational. There are exactly two enemy types, against whom RF is good (sometimes only good):
- All melee-only enemies (either bloodspider or blade without sidearm/grenade available). This is good case to set high-TU RF mode, depending on minimal distance, enemy can make from nearest uncovered point to attack range for closest enemy.
- Hovernets at low range. Since they have only one firemode, for 16TU, they are also convenient target. Both during attack (I was able once to do 2 3x AR bursts with hiding/unhiding after each) and for RF - if no other enemies are expected, it's essential to set rifleman to 16x RF mode and shotgunner... two shots are enough in begining, but he's better to not miss, so besides having support, they walk with popguns for first time (4TU with still ability to somehow damage bloodspiders and not bad precision makes it best CC trainee weapon).
I always play to never lose anyone. Moreover at very hard :). Sometimes it's too unclear, who are to be targed by enemy.

Offline anonymissimus

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Re: Survival problem using smoke - enemy attack without spotting.
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2020, 10:21:32 pm »
Aliens can shoot at a soldier by chance if they attempt to hit a civilian or soldier outside of smoke and that soldier happens to be in line of fire. It never occurred to me that aliens are able to attack soldiers inside of smoke, they need a line of vision to be able to attack. It only may happen if they move right besides the target (typically using a plasma blade), or the target is (seems to be) behind smoke, rather than in it.

I also use latest master btw.