UFO:Alien Invasion

General => Discussion => Topic started by: Madventurer on November 21, 2014, 09:45:55 pm

Title: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Madventurer on November 21, 2014, 09:45:55 pm
Hi there.
I downloaded UFO couple days back, and I've noticed that it's ridiculously hard.

Okay, playing 2.5 in VERY EASY difficulty, and in the game for couple months.

And the tactical game opponents keep raping my soldiers, no matter the range.
Especially in a recent base defense battle I was in, I lost two soldiers to getting one-shotted by fast-moving enemies either closing to range in a single turn, or just sniping me with plasma rifles. Oh and they were one-shotted at melee range, two-shotted at a bit further range. They all had combat armor.

I personally prefer to auto-fight the battles, but this base raid really got on my nerves, as I couldn't do that for it.

So what am I supposed to do to get ANYTHING after easiest missions done?
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: mikehg on November 21, 2014, 10:41:57 pm
Unless your soldiers are accurate and well armoured, you probably want to avoid straight shooting matches with any aliens. The key is out maneuvering them.

1) Are you using reaction fire? If they walk round a corner and into your squad, guns at the ready, they're dead.

2) Are you using smoke grenades? If there isn't any cover, make some.

3) Try equipping some soldiers lightly. If they're light enough, they get bonus TUs, allowing you to run further, fire more times per turn...

4) A big key to base defence is how you build the base. Use bottlenecks so you can choose where to fight them - I like the power plant, personally.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TBeholder on November 22, 2014, 03:33:34 am
Yeah, armor, medikits and minimum weight otherwise.
Also, crouching helps a lot, especially combined with (bad) other cover. And it improves accuracy, of course, which matters at long range. Kind of funny when occasionally a sniper gets to hit something with reaction fire even despite near-impossible TU requirement.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Madventurer on November 22, 2014, 08:30:55 am
1) Yes, I'm using reaction fire, but it's not really working. My squad got slaughtered by a really fast-moving thing that was resistant to the fire. Yes, they got quite a few shots at it, but it didn't die soon enough.

2) I don't understand how smoke grenades would give me any cover at all against enemies with infrared vision.

3) It doesn't matter how lightly I equip them if they can't get close enough to actually hit the enemy fatally. Plasma rifle reaction fire slaughters them, no matter what I do.

4) I didn't really have a choice with the starting base layout....

And lastly: How do I outmaneuver something that has infrared vision and moves twice as fast as my soldiers? I don't.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: mikehg on November 22, 2014, 04:16:31 pm
1) It's often really a case of choosing the right weapon (therefore squad member) for the moment. A bit like scissor paper stone in a sense.

All weapons have weaknesses, so figure out what is strong against what. A plasma rifle isn't massively fast, so a faster weapon - like a shotgun or a plasma blaster - will beat it up close on reaction fire. It's not massively accurate either, so something like a sniper or laser rifle will normally beat it at range, though that's riskier.

That said, you'll always lose some soldiers (unless you keep restarting...). It's that kind of game.

2) Yeah, that's a bit of an issue - sometimes the story contradicts the game mechanics. The reality is any soldier who ends his turn in smoke is invisible to any enemy who isn't directly next to him. And if one enemy can see you, they all can - though that's also true for you seeing the enemies.

3) Reaction fire only works in the field of vision (I think it's 120 degrees). So if you throw a grenade from behind something, or attack from behind or the sides, or shoot from within smoke, you won't trigger it.

Also, use bleeding to your advantage. If you can hit a non-robotic alien then safely leave it to bleed to death, do so. Snipers and automatics are both useful for this.

4) You can destroy buildings by right clicking on them, and with a bit of planning you can make the starting base fairly robust. It comes down to reducing surprises, controlling where they meet you. Also, put a guy in the CCTV room of the control centre if you haven't.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Noordung on November 22, 2014, 05:23:07 pm
dont do auto mission. you wont get any skills for that and you soliders will be left behind in later game. also dont do light weight. do it full. if strenght is 50 go for 24,9 kilos. the more weight you put on yout soliders the more will their strenght increase and late game weapons/armours are much heavier. just dont give them too much or you will get TU pentalty. you dont want that.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Madventurer on November 22, 2014, 08:25:32 pm
My main problem was that my enemies simply walzed in front of my soldiers, closed in, and shot before reaction fire kicked in. And in the rare case it did so before enemy fired, it wasn't enough to kill the enemy and my soldier got slaughtered by plasma rifle.

Also, for the 'don't do auto mission':
I'm not practically fond to losing half of my troops in manual missions instead of the 0-2 of auto mission.
No matter what I do, the aliens keep slaughtering me from behind cover, while I can't even close in without losing half of the team.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on November 23, 2014, 06:40:37 pm
Patience.
I need maybe at least 3 hours for a base defense mission or so. Depending on how many aliens there are and how large the base is.
Keep a soldier in the camera room. Watch them move. Keep track of all of them. Keep your soldiers out of range (at least 40 TUs of movement for Sheevar/unarmored Taman with plasma blade/kerrblade). Once they happen to come into movement and/or firing range, rush out, kill, and rush back or cover or block. If any other aliens may attack those soldiers who fought just now.
If the base has only a single entrance, it becomes quick and easy. Block with a few melee units the entrance on the bottom level. All snipers go into the upper level (power plant, crew quarters or small hangar) and shoot through the wall while aliens move in and out.
Shooting from the tower of the large hangar is also nice sometimes, while aliens are moving around far away from that, without a particular target.
It's quite possible to come out of base defense missions with zero losses.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: hoiba on November 24, 2014, 12:48:32 pm
Yes, patience is the key. Just like anonymissimus said.

I often use the first 2-3 rounds just to rally my troops. Usually around the camera room. If there are single soldiers somewhere in the base, I hide them until I have some more in the vicinity.
These first 2-3 rounds I usually note (on a sheet of paper) how many aliens are present, and where they are.

Then I start to advance very slowly. Step by step from cover to cover. I found it useful to send teams of 2-3 solders. Some teams to attack the enemies front, others to fall to their flanks at the same time.

I have built my bases (not intentionally.. just had luck ^^) to have long corridors. These are guarded by my snipers. They are in cover, leaving it every round to take a look down the corridor and then pop back to cover.

The tactics I use depend on the enemies behavior. If the enemy advances (you can see it through the cameras) I try to trap them somehow: Hide and wait for a good moment to leave cover and wipe 'em out.
If they stay stationary...guarding their spot... then it's up to me to advance with a lot of caution.

I don't use smokes inside the base (besides of emergencies). There is enough cover to hide. But in general smokes help a lot!

But of course there can be some frustrating situations. Hovernets and especially Combat Hovernets are really 'pita'. Having lots of TU and enormous firepower they can easily cover a long distance and still killing 1-2 soldiers.
And sometimes I get surprises because I'm still not very familiar with the buildings inside the base. Some have basements through which the enemy can sneak behind my lines (happend once). This nearly got me a heart attack :)

All I can say is you have to give yourself a lot of time to defend the bases. If you're not sure whats in front of you just stay where you are until you know. If Hovernets are present, stay away until you know what they are up to and you have a good chance of taking them out. Patience and caution.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: IMBACORE on January 03, 2015, 06:12:01 am
Also, put a guy in the CCTV room of the control centre if you haven't.

Wait that's a feature?  :o I didn't know that! Thanks!!

So you just simply let one soldier stay inside the command center or do you have to place the operative in a specific place in the CCenter? If the latter, where?
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Noordung on January 03, 2015, 02:38:09 pm
in small room in command center
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Kaleh on March 27, 2015, 12:19:54 pm
12 soldiers for base defense-all equiped with nades (smoke,frag,plasma), medkit, IR. At the start (if you have one soldier what is weak or sniper) put him in com centar and if your barracks are far, use rest to cover the passages to it (always make sure you put one barrack next to entrance point, and com centar close to them). Also dont be afraid to have 2-3 snipers (combine them with IR for taking hidden enemies trough the walls). And make the aliens come to you, when you get number advantage move to finish them of (groups of 2-3 to support) and if posible from few directions (but make sure there are no friendlies directly behind the enemy)
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: madrsihands on June 12, 2015, 07:10:27 am
yeah base invasions were always tricky, but the most frustrating part to them is how long you have to wait for alien movement, especially when they are all just pacing back in forth.  I would be scared if they actually tried to converge on my command center and remained in groups, but they kept meandering off around the base.  Typically I always kept one or two guys in the command center, but I was fairly annoyed when I learned the surveillance only extends over certain entrances to the base and not INSIDE the base.

Very quickly my first objective was to prevent aliens from entering my base.  Not that I'm worried about them reaching the command center, or the antimatter chamber, or the missile silo, or the power plant, or the alien containment prison, but just because it takes forever to find them once they get inside your base.  And god forbid they get to a barracks which has like 3 floors they could hide in.

Typically I'd either send my guys surface side through the Workshop, or I'd send them to the radar tower which provides good firing coverage.  The Firebird hanger was always suicide as all the weird corners and openings to the 2nd level provided aliens with all sorts of lines-of-sites I couldn't see.  It would also be nice if the main game could randomize your initial base, so when base invasions do occur you can form different strategize for each game rather than having to dump a ton of money into your base so you don't have to play the same "level" every time you get invaded.

Also how do base invasions start?  Does it happen when I let an alien scout ship go over my base unmolested?  Or when I keep launching and landing aircraft at the same time aliens are entering my base's airspace?  It would be cool to have to struggle with the decision to risk your pilot over risking having your base be the main target of alien attack for the rest of the campaign.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on June 12, 2015, 05:44:47 pm
Does it happen when I let an alien scout ship go over my base unmolested?
Possibly, but unlikely. I once had a base attacked with nothing else than entrance, command center and radar. I hope the game isn't so mean that that base location stays known to the aliens after the buildings have been erased, as that would basically force the player to have a very costly emergency defense crew and equipment everywhere.
Or when I keep launching and landing aircraft at the same time aliens are entering my base's airspace?
This seems to be the main action revealing bases.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: pete conway on July 24, 2015, 04:43:23 pm
I have to agree with the OP as to 'why in hells name is this so hard' even on very easy mode, I loved the original games and was overjoyed whe UFO AI came out, though I wish 2.3/2.4 was still available for download because I could get to 'enjoy' it at medium difficulty level, it didn't matter that it was unfinished, I could get stuck in and ramp up the difficulty to how I wanted.
2.5 seems to have moved it's difficulty level exponentially, it feels that the AI use 'insider information' and in many cases have 'hitbot' stats, and seem to be always faster than the human troops, and some of us are not that keen on having our butts handed to us 'e v e r y  s i n g l e  t i m e' we meet someone from a different planet.

That difficulty has forced me to adopt 'Auto- mission' tactics just so I can enjoy the rest of that game, which is a shame because I really want to enjoy this... without cussin all the time!
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: ShipIt on July 25, 2015, 08:28:02 am
I have to agree with the OP as to 'why in hells name is this so hard' even on very easy mode, I loved the original games and was overjoyed whe UFO AI came out, though I wish 2.3/2.4 was still available for download because I could get to 'enjoy' it at medium difficulty level, it didn't matter that it was unfinished, I could get stuck in and ramp up the difficulty to how I wanted.
2.5 seems to have moved it's difficulty level exponentially, it feels that the AI use 'insider information' and in many cases have 'hitbot' stats, and seem to be always faster than the human troops, and some of us are not that keen on having our butts handed to us 'e v e r y  s i n g l e  t i m e' we meet someone from a different planet.

That difficulty has forced me to adopt 'Auto- mission' tactics just so I can enjoy the rest of that game, which is a shame because I really want to enjoy this... without cussin all the time!

Sounds just like some random rant, isn´t it?  If not, describing the problems in more detail would help to make the experience better.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: pete conway on July 25, 2015, 10:44:29 am
My apologies for my first post to come off the back of a particularly difficult base defense mission shiplt, I didn't wish to appear to whinge at first contact but I guess my mood didn't take that into account.
Getting wasted on the 'easiest' level is not something I'm accustomed to in UFO, and right up to 2.4 this held true...

My bases are set out in the formal fashion of funnel defense into two sides 'enclosed side' 'entrances side'  and with a guy in the control room I set defense for the enclosed area, the Alien enemies start 2 on the ramp and 3 within the fenced area at the entrance, in their turn they leave and wander around outside for a dozen turns, (I just deleted some of the post... I have a thing about typing... not good at it, sorry)
after some time passing turns They ain't coming for me so I have to go to them... I watch as one wanders off into a field and sneak some Sniper, GL, and Assault, to the ramp, the Alien then trots back and one shot kills the assault guy half hidden by wall with a plasma blaster (2 buildings distance) the Alien finishes his turn by stepping out of sight, I try again with another assault guy joining them and again as soon as a head pops half out...bang, no head... I go back and try to wait it out, Aliens hit wander mode again, these were my best troops with NC-Armour my highest stats(very good and highly proficient), 40 missions (auto missions now give experience) and after hitting 'auto mission' and re-load so many times I feel that the game has changed... and not just on the field, less income than before, lower happiness than before, and (understandably) limited starting soldier stats, the money and happiness have a considerable impact on gameplay, I even restarted several times thinking that I had accidentally selected hard mode.
This is why I agree with the OP.

please understand that I am an 'old guy' that first played UFO on the Amiga500+ and have enjoyed UFO AI for some time... I'm still enjoying it now, but... I'm missing out on so much by having to play with disposable soldiers and sell ships to pacify my funders.


Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: ShipIt on July 25, 2015, 11:15:02 am
My apologies for my first post to come off the back of a particularly difficult base defense mission shiplt, I didn't wish to appear to whinge at first contact but I guess my mood didn't take that into account.
Getting wasted on the 'easiest' level is not something I'm accustomed to in UFO, and right up to 2.4 this held true...

My bases are set out in the formal fashion of funnel defense into two sides 'enclosed side' 'entrances side'  and with a guy in the control room I set defense for the enclosed area, the Alien enemies start 2 on the ramp and 3 within the fenced area at the entrance, in their turn they leave and wander around outside for a dozen turns, (I just deleted some of the post... I have a thing about typing... not good at it, sorry)
after some time passing turns They ain't coming for me so I have to go to them... I watch as one wanders off into a field and sneak some Sniper, GL, and Assault, to the ramp, the Alien then trots back and one shot kills the assault guy half hidden by wall with a plasma blaster (2 buildings distance) the Alien finishes his turn by stepping out of sight, I try again with another assault guy joining them and again as soon as a head pops half out...bang, no head... I go back and try to wait it out, Aliens hit wander mode again, these were my best troops with NC-Armour my highest stats(very good and highly proficient), 40 missions (auto missions now give experience) and after hitting 'auto mission' and re-load so many times I feel that the game has changed... and not just on the field, less income than before, lower happiness than before, and (understandably) limited starting soldier stats, the money and happiness have a considerable impact on gameplay, I even restarted several times thinking that I had accidentally selected hard mode.
This is why I agree with the OP.

please understand that I am an 'old guy' that first played UFO on the Amiga500+ and have enjoyed UFO AI for some time... I'm still enjoying it now, but... I'm missing out on so much by having to play with disposable soldiers and sell ships to pacify my funders.

First, the problem you describe is similar to what I feel about the base defence missions. Aliens cannot be trapped because they wont come in, going up the ramp is suicidal. My solution is to go up through the dropship hangar. This way is save because of the cameras placed there. Once I am there, my snipers most of the time can clear the area without problems.

Further, some of the things you dislike can easily be changed. You can mod the amount of money to start with, the stats of your recruits, the stats of the aliens and a lot of other things with a simple text editor. This is not cheating.

Finally, I am an 'old guy' too. In 2.4, I played with a single squad from the beginning ´till the end. Lots of our players did the same and found this to be fun. I think, 2.5 and 2.6 are way more challenging and thus much better. Oc not everything is perfectly balanced.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: pete conway on July 25, 2015, 12:06:56 pm
Thanks for the reply Shiplt, that base defense was averted by multiple reloads and managing to shoot the corruptor down using base defense lasers, SAM missile suite, and two Dragons, however at the time I could not get into the dropship hanger as it had 2 hovernets, 2sheevers and a taman wandering around in it... and I would have to pass the entry ramp to get to it... at some point during that playthrough an Alien (from outside the fence) dropped a grenade down the ramp landing exactly between two of my troops...

I am interested in massaging things through the text editor to help on certain points... though what they would be as yet I have absolutely no idea,
If you could perhaps just point me in the right direction to the editor bit I'll try to figure something not too drastic out.
Funny, I used to see the end of the month as a good thing allowing me to invest a couple of bucks in a new base or whatever, now... I dread it as I know I'm gonna drop $150k and thats after 'trimming' my engineers and scientists. lol

Pete.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on July 25, 2015, 04:34:13 pm
I actually would recommend to start playing UFO:AI by using 2.4 first, before trying 2.5, as the difficulty increase between 2.4 on very hard and 2.5 on very easy is much greater than the one between 2.5 on very easy and 2.5 on very hard. This is all due to the ai changes.

Pete, I consider base defenses to belong to the most easiest missions in 2.5 due to the cameras and the fact that no civilians that you would have to protect are present. If they pop out, kill you, and move back you did not approach them in a safe way. Many of them have pretty ridiculous movement points, you need to count how far they can act and stay out of reach otherwise. This results in a long playing time, if you want to finish a base defense in just 1 or 2 hours that won't work. Watch them move with the cameras, safely shoot them through walls with sniper weapons, safely wait until someone has died from bleeding. If an alien is near enough to attack he will do it, because he knows that you are there at the start of his turn without seeing you. That's the ai cheat. However, it is also eploitable by positioning expendable units for the ai to attack, causing them to stand at unsafe positions after their attack so they can be killed. 8) There are often enough troops to allow loosing one (expendable) soldier per alien. You can move up out of some entrance only if no aliens are near enough that entrance so that they might be able to shoot at that troops. Then when an alien happens to be positioned in your line of fire, you pop out, shoot with something like a laser, and move back. Then basically wait for death by bleeding if not dead yet. Repeat till the last alien.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: shevegen on August 09, 2015, 08:16:16 pm
I also concur with the threadstarter.

It has been about 2 years since I last tried UFO-AI so I don't know what has changed.

I am also fine with the difficulty by the way.

But I was wondering, perhaps there could be intro-level style commitments.

Something like a "training area" where you can shoot with a paint ball against other team members. Hmm perhaps not a good idea...

Or perhaps one could hire some special actors that have a good AI but work stand-alone and can help the team. Not too many, just
one or two to help out.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TBeholder on August 10, 2015, 11:01:45 am
Skirmish is hard because soldiers are equipped randomly, given a weapon even if they suck at this category.
The early game missions are not too hard, though tricky, and how much civilians it's possible to save is a matter of pure luck.
At least, your grunts can shoot straight (especially compared to original X-Com), and while AR snapshots are weak, MG pours a lot and is deadly enough.
So pack MG or two (if you go in two teams). Have a machinegunner (in crouch +RF) covering a long passage, this works well if they can't pop up on top of him.
Always pack at least one GL - indirect fire capability is priceless, especially when an enemy spawns on the roof where it's hard to hit them with anything else. As a bonus, close hits of HE shells occasionally knock out even if they don't kill. Incendiary grenades are fairly lame, but if it can soften up an enemy before it runs into your RF, that's something.
Also, if your scout runs into an alien face-to-face, it's time for indirect fire - get someone else hurl a grenade over a hovel rather than trying to duke it out head-on.
Flamethrowers are awesome, but very circumstantial - short-range and you can't carry anything else. If you get melee-range encounters no matter what, use it with RF all the time and don't bother with trying to rambo anything that doesn't walk into range; otherwise, ditch it until you get the hang of controlling engagement range.
Conversely, a shotgun with slugs is not quite as deadly, but still has good damage, but also decent range and weight allowance for a few grenades, consider giving it to 1-2 point scouts.
Smoke grenades are must-have, both to cover your own ass and to save civilians.
Try to have a fire contact at a longer range - where it's too far for plasma grenades, for plasma pistols it's technically in range, but they'll fire "in that general direction", especially in burst, which is what's going to happen - a rare single hit hurts like hell, but won't kill an armored soldier. And when they shoot in your general direction, they aren't busy massacring civilians instead.
With RF, potshots actually fired are better than uber-bursts that will never come, so select cheap modes - at least you can reduce the enemy's accuracy or soften them up for your turn and if 2 of them RF, they may actually score a kill like this; at very least, soldiers get some practice.
Research laser rifles - the best for long-range sniping; maybe coilguns for medium range sniping / instakill through cover; body armor when available.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on August 11, 2015, 07:54:01 pm
Quote
rare single hit hurts like hell, but won't kill an armored soldier.
Not true on very hard in 2.6. Thanks to the difficulty scaling. Simply put - if you're hit, you're dead. No matter that you're not wounded previously, have armor and what not.
It happened for me when bleeding still happened at the beginning of a sides's turn though. Now the chance to survive is a little higher, if you heal immediately.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TBeholder on August 12, 2015, 03:12:13 pm
Not true on very hard in 2.6. Thanks to the difficulty scaling. Simply put - if you're hit, you're dead.
Okay, but "on very hard" it's not "how to survive here at all?" beginner mode.  ;)
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: DarkRain on August 12, 2015, 07:15:06 pm
Well, I guess he is comparing it to the old times when battlescape on very hard wasn't any harder at all, and in fact some people would tell you to play on Very Hard to have an easier game, yes your read that right, go figure...
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on August 13, 2015, 03:58:32 pm
That's true, very hard was at least easier than very easy. That's because aliens advance faster, granting you better objects grabbed from the battle field earlier, so you get much more money and the ability to research the important things earlier (such as nanocomp armor, lasers, EM rifle). This doesn't take into account the new multiplied wages for high rank soldiers though.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Talos on August 22, 2015, 11:52:52 pm
I feel a bit the same as the maker of the thread.
I am playing on the easiest difficulty and I always  get my ass raped by aliens on regular missions, always losing 2-3 soldiers min.
My complain here is that smoke grenades seem useless since I used them as cover to protect from shevaars (are they called like that?) and they fire from a long distance always and magically always hit and kill even one of my armored guys.
It becomes frustrating since I almost can't do anything sice the aliens are better than me in every aspect, speed, accuracy etc, and smoke doesnt seem to affect them. In the few missions I tried they appeared in groups, a group of 2, and another one inside a building could manage to kill another one of my sooldiers from far away.

Too man enemies that are also strong, fast and have a lot of health for my weapons. I barely discovered plasma rifles but despite that I need like 2 hits to kill one alien. I try to use fire reaction but they always win in speed and power.
In my opinion it is too hard at least on the easiest difficulty it shouldn't be that frustrating. I prefer not any of my soldiers to die since if one of them dies the previous experience gained is in vane. I prefer them to stay alive and become better soldiers, but it is too difficult not to get kicked in the ass.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 23, 2015, 10:23:50 am
I think an important thing to realise is that losing one or two soldiers per mission is part of the game philosophy. You are fighting a war against a much superior enemy, after all.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: ShipIt on August 23, 2015, 02:00:11 pm
I think an important thing to realise is that losing one or two soldiers per mission is part of the game philosophy. You are fighting a war against a much superior enemy, after all.

Well said, imo.


@Talos
What version are you playing?



Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Talos on August 23, 2015, 03:24:24 pm
Well said, imo.


@Talos
What version are you playing?
I'm playing 2.5
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: ShipIt on August 24, 2015, 09:24:05 am
I'm playing 2.5

Smoke is not useless. Aliens will not target a unit hidden in smoke (although they technically can 'see' it). Also, shooting and hit chances are the same for every actor in the game, altered by skills and stats.

Not absolutely sure, but somehow my feeling is, in 2.6 the battlescape is easier to solve than in 2.5, so you could go and try that. You can mod the stats of aliens and recruits without much effort, as you can change some modifiers to make the battles easier for you.

I will try to give my general plan (in 2.6). My squad is usually build from one Scout/Cannonfoder (Sniper Rifle + extra TUs), one Sniper (Sniper Rifle + extra TUs), four Assault (Assault/Plasma/Laser/Assault+EP rifles, Armour) and two Grenadiers (Grenade Launcher, Armour if possible). This changes, depending on the map. So I might replace the Grenadiers by Close-Quarters-Combat-Cannonfodder (in maps like city3 parking lot), or replace an Assault by an additional Sniper.
The scout goes first, looking to find the enemies position. The Assaults secure the area, the Grenadiers and Snipers follow in safe positions.
1) I rarely hide my units within smoke, simply because they cannot see anything this way. More often I use smoke to block the 'line of sight', so my soldiers can get into good positions safely.
2) Use strong recruits with otherwise bad skills/stats as scout with Sniper rifle and extra TUs. The extra TUs are important, as it gives a chance to spot the enemy and then move back into a save position. The Sniper Rifle is the only weapon that as a chance to hit & kill some opponents in early game. Again, the extra TUs help, as the scout can shoot and still move. Dont care if you loose your scouts frequently, but if one survives some missions, he might be good enough to be promoted.
3) In general split your actions into spotting and attacking, with different actors. So, the scout spots the enemy, the Grenadier or Sniper tries to take him out from a save position. This prevents you from taking the Reaction fire of your enemies. Also, if you fail in killing the victim, the scout can retreat and everybody is save during the aliens turn.
4) I don´t use reaction fire until I have Laser rifles or EP-ammo. It´s useless. With Laser rifle and reaction fire set on Pulsed Fire mode, an experienced Assault in Nano-Armour has a very good chance to win a direct duel against a Combat Hovernet, if in a good position.
5) Consider blocking passages by fire fields from Incendiary grenades. Aliens usually try to avoid walking into, so there is no need to guard in this direction.
6) Arrange your squad occording to the map. This might be a problem, as it requires to know the map. If in doubt, play the map in Skirmish to check how it is build. Some maps require a lot of long range fire power (farm, frozen, desert - short range weapons are useless), while others favour close quarters combat (oriental, harbour2).
7) If in trouble, don´t hesitate to sacrifice weaker units to protect the stronger ones. Oc it depends, which unit is 'better'. For me Scout dies first, Grenadiers are easier to replace than a Sniper, a good Assault (multi functional soldier) is priceless.
8 ) Try to get PB-Grenades and EP-rounds as fast as possible. They are unmatched.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Talos on August 25, 2015, 12:28:36 pm
Thanks for those advices. They will be helpfull  :)
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Rodmar on August 31, 2015, 11:07:33 pm
I'm a week ahead in v2.5 on difficult settings, and I must say that the game is very unforgiving as compared to v2.4 on normal. I had to intensively use the save/reload game before the first interception and before each one mission until september 2084. I spent hours replaying single missions, and I've could have become bored of that, save that I've came to realize that I was actually learning the job and becoming more confident in my survival chances.
Learning the weapon ranges, alien TU and reaction fire, that some aliens are very found on grenades, that aliens too may see "between tiles", ... all of this would have cost me so many lives!

So, it's true that I didn't lost any of my starting team so far (they are so skilled in October 2084 that I wonder if that's intended), and it's true that I reloaded when a bigger nasty appeared to destroy a transport... but I've learned.
For example, I learned how to (over)use smoke grenades: on open maps, the enemy get no chances anymore.

However, I have no shame of it as I feel like learning without being punished (only consuming my leisure time). I even let rookies die now (on my Beta team).

All in all, so far I found it both very challenging and very exciting. Thank you for the new AI.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TBeholder on September 07, 2015, 01:02:49 pm
2) Use strong recruits with otherwise bad skills/stats as scout with Sniper rifle and extra TUs. The extra TUs are important, as it gives a chance to spot the enemy and then move back into a save position. The Sniper Rifle is the only weapon that as a chance to hit & kill some opponents in early game. Again, the extra TUs help, as the scout can shoot and still move. Dont care if you loose your scouts frequently, but if one survives some missions, he might be good enough to be promoted.
What - shotguns suck in 2.6?
In 2.5 it may be the best choice for scouts in early game: light and quite lethal vs. unarmored enemies.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: MonkeyHead on September 09, 2015, 07:42:35 pm
In 2.6 I have had many interesting experiences with both shotguns. First, the standard one with slugs. The standard shotgun with slugs can on occasion one hit kill a Taman in alien armour - if you can hit him. It will stun them quite often, and even one hit kill or stun a Sheevar if you are lucky, though a few hits will be needed to take down an un-armoured Ortnok or a Taman in heaver armour. They even really hurt robotic enemies, and can put down a hovernet in one hit, if you hit it. The combat versions of robots take more than one hit, of course. They wont dent an armoured Ortnok. The accuracy is horrible for soldiers of low skill and accuracy stat. Despite the incredibly short range of the Flamethrower, it is potentially a better choice on maps with little open space as it does not suffer from the highly erratic accuracy of the standard shotgun. This accuracy increases with some mission experience, but by the time their accuracy or skill is good enough to hit things reliably with the shotgun, you are going to be better off giving them a plasma blaster if the strength stat has grown along with others. To be fair, the plasma blaster is a bit OP, as it will take nearly anything down - I have lost more soldiers to it than any other weapon by far. Standard shotguns with slugs are also very, very useful as a defensive weapon - hide a tile or two back from a corner in ambush, and they fire very reliably as a close range reaction fire weapon. Now... the microshotgun. I love that weapon. I have emplyed it mainly as a secondary weapon for snipers to use if they need to go into close combat mode - storming a building or UFO, say. I have also used it for low strength, low accuracy CQ recruits who do not have a high enough accuracy to be given an SMG in order to pewpewpew away from distance. These act as forward scouts. As with the standard shotgun, they are great as a defensive weapon in terms of generating reliable close range ambush reaction fire, and will 1 hit kill or stun un-armoured organic foes of all types if within 4 tiles or so. Any further might stun or badly wound organic foes if you are lucky. They simply do not hurt robotic enemies enough to justify using against them, nor are they much good against armoured aliens. Similar applies to the flechette grenade rounds.

So, yes, early game the CQ weapons are a fun tactical choice, essential at times in keeping soldiers alive in close quarters defensive combat. However, the tech tree kind of forgets them a little, with the slightly OP plasma blaster a fairly obvious choice for all circumstances. Yes, the plasma pistol is a nice sidearm, or useful for grenade flingers (who I generally give the automatic pistol early game, to keep one hand free for grenade lobbing), and so is the laser pistol (or even particle pistol) - but the pistols are secondary weapons to me, and not to be relied on. I would love to see some variety brought in - I have previously posted about how I would love to see the Particle Blaster be a CQ weapon, seeing as how it behaves like one anyway in terms of its sub par accuracy. Its MASSIVE damage and high TU cost could balance it in that class nicely. I have also seen others suggesting some kind of "alien material" slug to replace standard slugs to give CQ recruits something worth shooting at armoured aliens., and "needler flechette" derived techs for the micro shotgun (which could of course be fired from the standard one too) and the flechette grenades. Heck, there even exists a mod for a "plasmathrower", which could act as a nice step up in terms of damage from a flamethrower (though this might mean the flamethrower needs a damage nerf or more TU's added to its use cost to make it a viable option) and sit alongside the plasma blaster.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: ShipIt on September 10, 2015, 12:22:27 pm
In ... blaster.

I agree with most of your observations. In mid game the CQ combat options are basicly gone. Upgraded ammo for the shotgun/microshotgun, like the "needler flachette" would be a nice solution imo.

My opinion about Plasma/Particle Blaster is different, though. I simply cannot imagine those heavy and chunky weapons to be good for short range combat, where fast reaction and quick movement is required. Also, the splash damage of the Plasma Blasters ball mode conflicts with it to be used for short distances.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Rodmar on September 11, 2015, 03:25:22 pm
Also, the splash damage of the Plasma Blasters ball mode conflicts with it to be used for short distances.
I'd thought that it was the alien version for the flamer, which has splash damage too (AoE at least).
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: MonkeyHead on September 11, 2015, 11:46:37 pm
I agree with most of your observations. In mid game the CQ combat options are basicly gone. Upgraded ammo for the shotgun/microshotgun, like the "needler flachette" would be a nice solution imo.

My opinion about Plasma/Particle Blaster is different, though. I simply cannot imagine those heavy and chunky weapons to be good for short range combat, where fast reaction and quick movement is required. Also, the splash damage of the Plasma Blasters ball mode conflicts with it to be used for short distances.

Define short distances. To me, short distances covers anything under about 8, up to point blank. Yes, the blasters ball mode will hurt the shooter from 2 tiles or less, but still is safe for very close combat of range 3 to 5 tiles, where is outclasses the shotguns, but probably not the flamethrower, thanks to accuracy issues. If it is supposed to be a "cumbersome" weapon, then maybe upping the TU's for its use from 8 to 14 or 16 would nerf it a little - making it more "difficult" to use in terms of TU's than a rifle, keeping the shotguns and flamethrower a pair of attractive options for longer, doubly so if they get some kind of upgrade or human based plasma flame tech parrallel - possibly derived from plasma balde tech? The high TU cost of the particle blaster reflects this clumsy nature and high weight, sure. Do we need to come up with new alien CQ weapons, to keep CQ relevant as sniper tech, explosive tech, and assault tech leave it behind?
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Gary Bonn on September 12, 2015, 05:09:05 pm
You find it hard? I play with experts and die first every time. I'm good at dying, indeed I'm probably exceptional.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TBeholder on September 14, 2015, 03:49:12 pm
Despite the incredibly short range of the Flamethrower, it is potentially a better choice on maps with little open space as it does not suffer from the highly erratic accuracy of the standard shotgun.
With the crappy Close skill yes, though at least it doesn't eat too much TU.
Generally, flamethrower is much better in a "maze of twisted passages, all alike", while shotgun's range is better for zifgzagging between the barns, inside buildings with corridors, or split by aisles or machines, and so on. Hard to choose - the former is what happens in ships, but otherwise the second is encountered more often. I choose shotguns, because enemies usually crawl out of mazes on their own.

I agree with most of your observations. In mid game the CQ combat options are basicly gone. Upgraded ammo for the shotgun/microshotgun, like the "needler flachette" would be a nice solution imo.
Or better nuke AM slugs. If proportionally destructive (as in, volume of slugs vs. AR bullets), it would be blaster-grade overkill.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: pete conway on September 16, 2015, 09:45:56 am

 Or better nuke AM slugs. If proportionally destructive (as in, volume of slugs vs. AR bullets), it would be blaster-grade overkill.
Funny thing that... I was thinking the self same thing just a few days ago but dismissed it as an idea as, well, I figured it had already occurred to the devs and been rejected, I like Shiplt's needler flechette idea too one or both would bring the close range combat back into play.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: DarkRain on September 16, 2015, 08:03:51 pm
No AM (or nuclear :P) hand-held weapons ammo please, but an EP shotgun slug could be a thing — in fact I wonder why it wasn't included with the rest of the EP ammos, seems like it would be easier to fit a miniaturized plasma blade in a shotgun shell than in a rifle one...
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: pete conway on September 17, 2015, 12:08:49 am
Ooops... I did actually mean plasma not Anti Matter as we don't even have AM rockets or grenades let alone smaller rounds. 
anyway I think the topic has drifted from what it was, and these suggestions might be better in, well. suggestions really. :)
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: MonkeyHead on September 21, 2015, 09:05:14 pm
Well, there is an AM bolter rifle round, but that is a big weapon, after all...

Though, if we have AM missiles as an air to air weapon, is it that much of a stretch to have an anti matter bazooka round, or grenade launcher round ... actually, it probably is - containing antimatter in such a launch on such a scale is a bit silly.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Rodmar on September 22, 2015, 10:13:15 am
One weapon that is not implemented in the game, though it's being used currently, up to the point to replace the flamethrower in most situations, is the Full Air Explosive or thermobaric bomb/missile/rocket.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1854371.stm

For now, it's still heavy and big AoE.

What if the alien nanotechnology could allow the PHALANX engineers to devise a much smaller casing, so that a thermobaric rocket ammo could become available for the PRL? A Mother of Rockets?
Miniaturization is critical because if not, the weapon is deemed a non-conventional one, and not fit to deal with civilian rescuing situations. Moreover, PHALANX can't afford to "groznyize" every site they come to secure.

Damage type could be "blast" (much higher than current blast damages, largest AoE radius of all) + "incendiary" (1 turn only, low damage, smaller radius). Even shrapnel (smaller radius) could be added to the weapon, as it's currently experimented.

Only a heavy body armour could protect the aliens caught in the blast (when heavy armour is available). Or only an Ortnok in medium armour?
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: H-Hour on September 26, 2015, 09:07:46 pm
No AM (or nuclear :P) hand-held weapons ammo please, but an EP shotgun slug could be a thing — in fact I wonder why it wasn't included with the rest of the EP ammos, seems like it would be easier to fit a miniaturized plasma blade in a shotgun shell than in a rifle one...

There was a weak justification in the original proposal (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Proposals/Encased_Plasma_Round). But if the late game is better with it than I say go for it. I never found the plasma blaster insufficient for CQB needs but a late-game upgrade might be fun anyway.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: TC on November 23, 2015, 03:31:41 am
This thread has been about the difficulty of 2.5 and the changes in that version which make it harder than previous versions. On that subject, I have a question:

Are the battlescape starting positions more difficult in 2.5?

I'm doing okay in my 2.5 campaign so far. I lose a soldier from time to time. The only time I take heavy losses, however, seems to be when the dropship puts my soldiers in the middle of the action on Turn 1. I don't remember that being a problem the last time I played in v2.3.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Rodmar on November 25, 2015, 06:14:16 pm
In those situations, I use stun and smoke grenades and later, even gas grenades to ward off possible ambush from behind nearby cover (e.g. some ice and frozen maps).
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on November 25, 2015, 08:50:32 pm
-Know the spawn point positions to know where they may come from - play a lot of missions. ;) So you may even shoot blindly onto a spawn point with snipers, if you here them cry something was hit.
-Put fire fields onto spots such as a door where they tend to rush out. They will either take severe damage or, more likely, use a suboptimal firing position and miss.
-Cannon fodder units placed with reaction fire and facing the directions they may come from force aliens to deal with that cannon fodder and attack the fodder instead of plasma blading your colonel.

I don't use gas grenades, as that's about the only really useful thing coming out of the autopsies research tree. Need to really put priorities as research time is so precious on the hard levels.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Rodmar on November 27, 2015, 06:55:54 pm
Yes, but when gas grenades are researched quite soon (if they are researched), tamans and shevaars are still very vulnerable to it (perhaps one or two tiles walking in the cloud).
By the way, by the middle game, with tier 3 armour, PHALANX soldiers can walk in the midst of fire and gas fields with no prejudice.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: Pharaufein on December 02, 2015, 07:59:30 pm
I don't use gas grenades, as that's about the only really useful thing coming out of the autopsies research tree. Need to really put priorities as research time is so precious on the hard levels.

Are gas grenades even better than incendiary grenades?
I dont think so since they do not even work against hovernets and bloodspiders.
Title: Re: Why is this so goddamn hard?
Post by: anonymissimus on December 02, 2015, 10:48:32 pm
The combat versions of those also move through fire basically unharmed.
Against the humanoid aliens, gas is a lot more effective than fire. Used to be at least. Fire got an upgrade recently, it's causing bleeding and thus can increase movement costs, making it much more useful.