UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Design => Topic started by: BTAxis on April 07, 2006, 11:35:17 pm
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Purpose of this thread: Brainstorming the core equipment list for the main UFO:AI game, deciding on what equipment to include.
Preliminary ideas here (http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.cgi/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/src/docs/weapon_hierarchy.txt?view=markup).
Some brainstroming from my side... i'm not arguing for anything of that to get included, just listing it.
Weapons/items that we could include:
* EMP grenades - Especially to disable those evil Hovernets and Cyborg Ortnok for a short time.
* deployable/portable (energy) shields - might not be a good idea per se
* alien plasma blade (may not be a good/often used weapon of choice, but is devasating if used by aliens)
* Foam gun ... why stunning the alien when you can make it in-animated ;) ... just an idea
* Automated weapon platforms - Can also store equipment for other teram members (ammo, medipacks, etc...)
* EDIT Jetpack (no armor, but lighter and faster).
* EDIT spy drone
Alien types that came to my mind:
* Parasites - Small worm-like creatures that infect your soldier and kills/mutate/whatever it. If the target is killed the worms duplicate and spread.
* Cyborg cows - for the ufo-fanboys out there ;) ... just kidding
* Alien plants - Extra terestial plants that are hazardous (pollen/dust) to humans when standing next to them. (in alien bases/ships)
* Small attack critter - basically the 'nicer' (do not mix that up with "non-lethal") and smaller version of the Shevaar (EDIT i don't mean the shape/species here)... that is a pretty fast close combat (and maybe ranged combat) attacker.
Also i think a discussion about soldier enhancements (human cyborgs?) or even robots (but why take robots if you can have smaller weapon platforms that are easier to build and do the same) is needed.
EDIT I think (maybe only advanced) psi-abilities should require at least one enhancing implant.
Werner
Hmm. The implants thing sounds good to me. That'd be one way to distinguish X-COM from the "normal" army, too. I'll have to put some thought into this.
I'm asking myself how useful energy shields and plasma blades are when mines do the job of cutting off a passage and all the combat is ranged anyway. I'm pushing the envelope with the mines as it is. And EMP? What sort of damage would it do? Plus they wouldn't be too effective against a flying enemy. I downright don't like spy drones - part of the UFO experience is walking around a corner and running into your friendly neighborhood alien. Plus we have IR Goggles anyway.
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plasma blade: Thuis would mostly be used by the aliens by a really fast one (run&hit) in close combat or as a suplementary weapon for 'normal' ones (one hand plas pistol, the other hand holds the blade) so you have the maximum damage given the range to the target. I didn#t intent the player to use it, but maybe some will and it's one of those wepaons everybody underestimates ;) ... we'll see.
All right, we'll see.
And EMP? What sort of damage would it do? Plus they wouldn't be too effective against a flying enemy
How do you get stunned cyborgs/robots, so you can research them intact/alive? ;)
I don't think you do, actually. You can get live unmodified specimens. The main research topic on the cyborg versions would be how they grafted the machine on the flesh. And it would be rather cruel to do this on a live subject.
I downright don't like spy drones - part of the UFO experience is walking around a corner and running into your friendly neighborhood alien. Plus we have IR Goggles anyway.
fine with me
Yes, creating too much new specias is a bad thing, but i'm all for using robots (different types of the same model for different roles) or something like that. What do you think?
That is more or less the idea behind the cyborg version of the Ortnok. So yeah, I totally agree.
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Excerpt from my other post:
Flash Grenades should stun everything, also team members for tactical consideration, even cyborgs (temporary optical input overload) within a certain radius for a round or two.
Speaking of effect radius, displaying an estimated effect radius of grenades n such should be visible to avoid bad surprises.
Stun rods are a must IMO for the purpose of capturing aliens.
Anti-psionic tech (psi-blocker) to counter psionic abilities of aliens either temporarily or permanently.
Maybe working only for a number of turns due to powerconsumtion?
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Flash grenades sound reasonable, but I don't think they should do stun damage. Rather, they should impose an accuracy penalty for anyone looking at the grenade when it goes off (or perhaps more simply, units that are too close, period).
Yeah, we should probably add stun rods, too. We have melee combat anyway (knives). I never used them in the original UFO, though, stun grenades were much more effective.
I don't like the idea of anti-psionic tech. Psionics are, by definition, an act of willpower. Machines don't have a will. Psi-amps (and psi implants which we might introduce) just enhance existing powers, and psi helmets inhibit them, but you can't generate or extinguish willpower in someone with a machine.
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Flash grenades sound reasonable, ... Rather, they should impose an accuracy penalty for anyone looking at the grenade when it goes off (or perhaps more simply, units that are too close, period).
Sounds good.
psi helmets inhibit them.
That's actually what I was thinking of...
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And EMP? What sort of damage would it do? Plus they wouldn't be too effective against a flying enemy
How do you get stunned cyborgs/robots, so you can research them intact/alive? ;)
I don't think you do, actually. You can get live unmodified specimens. The main research topic on the cyborg versions would be how they grafted the machine on the flesh. And it would be rather cruel to do this on a live subject.
Point 1: Ok, we'll just leave EMP out of the game for now.
Point 2: But this still raises one question: Do the earth forces (not the aliens) apply things like the Geneva Conventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions) to the aliens? Since they are AFAIK a "human only" thing right now i think humanity would extend theses rules to include extraterrestrial life as well. Even if the Aliens do not follow them (if they even know something like that) that doesn't mean earth-forces won't.
Point 1.1:
If we get to the point of an EMP discussion again:
- EMP devices would 'stun' robotic targets.
- EMP devices would damage/blind/whatever the average cyborg target like conventional weapons (damage seperate parts of the body), but are not able to kill them. If the cyborg consists mostly of robotic parts, the 'stun' effect is possible as well. This just depends on the description of the enemy ;)
- EMP would become even more useful if we not only can capture e.g hovernets, but also reprogram them in the later game to assist us ... maybe even in comabt.
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Werner
PS: Mind you that i use the word "robot" when i mean some (attack) thing compeltely made out of technology, but no cyborgs (tech/bio mix).
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The Geneva Convention thing is an interesting point. I think we could include that in the tech tree somehow. Like, after an X number of terror attacks/abductions, you get a research topic called "The Gloves are Off" (or something) which would act to illustrate the change from "fair" warfare to "no rules" warfare. After researching that, the live alien research branch would be unlocked.
EDIT: This is something for the storyline thread, really.
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On the topic of EMP, that's not something I would include in the basic list of equipment and game mechanics, but hold the thought. It may turn out to be quite a fun addition.
Robotics we will have plenty anyway, like the cyborg Ortnoks, sufficiently modified human soldiers, Hovernets and the UGVs ProtoArmor came up with.
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Addition:
potion-alike drugs (small healing,speed boost,strentgh boost or PSI Immunity for a few turns with a tiny risk of injury of slowdown/sickness)
Portable shields
Riot shields for pistol users
Portable Machinegun carts (if governments cant produce a gattling cannon or even a smaller calibre gun on wheels(which needs a turn to deploy and fasten on ground against recoil) they are morons,you can build one with today's technology.
Friendly SWAT troops (counts as another team) in terror missions (there is no reason to deny them)
Incendiary grenade (tribute to XCOM)
Grenade launcher
Grappling hook to ascend to rooftops please omg include this one ASAP
CANAS sniper gun,or at least SVD
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potion-alike drugs (small healing,speed boost,strentgh boost or PSI Immunity for a few turns with a tiny risk of injury of slowdown/sickness)
That's been a thought before. Though it's more traditional that squad members heal each other through medikits.
Portable shields
Riot shields for pistol users
That's been put forward also, though as yet there is no shield technology planned. Of course, a lot isn't planned. Yet.
Portable Machinegun carts (if governments cant produce a gattling cannon or even a smaller calibre gun on wheels(which needs a turn to deploy and fasten on ground against recoil) they are morons,you can build one with today's technology.
ProtoArmor has already done some creative thinking along those lines: UGVs. Read more in this (http://ufo.myexp.de/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=76) thread.
Friendly SWAT troops (counts as another team) in terror missions (there is no reason to deny them)
Ah, yes there is. The point of the whole X-COM setup is that the X-COM soldiers are the elite of the elite, peerless soldiers who are the first, last and only line of defense of humanity (excuse the cheese). Friendly military units would simply be in the way.
Incendiary grenade (tribute to XCOM)
Is on the list (see link in first post).
Grenade launcher
We have grenades and a rocket launcher. That should be enough for explosives if you ask me, BUT there is a grenade launcher model. We might include it yet (pretty much nothing is fixed at this point).
Grappling hook to ascend to rooftops please omg include this one ASAP
Far too complicated. Besides, there will likely be flying armor types.
CANAS sniper gun,or at least SVD
What? We have sniper rifles on the list. Sorry if they aren't the exact model you want, but feel free to mod it in.
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Regarding cyborgs/enhanced soldiers:
The whole problem is to find a way to make flesh and machine work together. Instead of removing a limb from a willing (or not) soldier, what if the basic condition for being elligible to implants was that the soldier must first have a important wound ? Let's say that a 25% loss of hit points represents the loss of an arm or a leg, whatever. And you then have the option to let him heal normally (XCOM agents have this ability to grow new arms and legs ;) ), or try to adapt a robotic implant. The surgery may not always be succesful, though :D
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That's kind of icky. It would encourage players to put their soldiers at risk just so they could put implants in them. I think the idea of the implants is to make the soldiers stronger, not to try to get them killed.
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I agree with you, it may encourage the player to let their soldiers wander around with C4 packed around the belly... Well, I must admit that I always try to hurt my soldiers in UFO in order to increase their hit points :D
And if the surgery isn't 100% reliable, it may prevent such behavior.
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C4 around belly...
Oops my cell phone is ringi...BAMMO!
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Idiot left his cell phone on under battle conditions! Have him arrested...
Ah, a little late for that. Damned C4...
Remind me, why does the commander make us wear high-explosives all the time?
(Back on topic):
My 'vision' of implants is always augmentation... rather than completely replacing a limb / eye / part of head, I always think of implants as smaller components which boost performance - for example, small cranial implants to stimulate adrenaline production, increase efficiency of neural pathways, increase endurance by converting pain signals to benevolent signals (etc), implants in limbs to boost performance of nerves and muscles - mostly subdermal stuff, rather than "You, Soldier, hold out your arm!" *Haack*
Also, what could be gained by completely replacing a human hand with a mechanical one? It would either have to be some strange borg 'wierd moving parts that shoot out electricity' thing, or it would have to be VERY advanced, and able to outperform the organic limb.
Anyway the possible list of subcutaneous implants is massive...
- Psi enhancement / resistance boost (cranial)
- Neural pathway stimulation (cranial, boost intelligence)
- Adrenal enhancement (Strength / Stamina)
- Strength enhancement (implanted into muscle tissue)
- Nanites? (Not really an implant per se, but mechanical. Aids in repair of body / cleans bloodstream of toxins)
- Ocular implants (eyes, boosts vision / accuracy)
- Nerve enhancement (implanted into limbs, enhances electrical nerve signals - agility improved)
- Subcutaneous Armor? I'd say strengthened bones, but that's more biomedical than biomechanical.
To list a few ideas.
-PsyW
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What do you think of the idea that surgery may not be 100% reliable and successful ?
Let's say that with the first implant technology you develop (whatever), you get a 60% success rate. It means that 6 times out of 10, your soldiers is actually stronger, but the 4 other times it's a failure, and either nothing happens or soldiers dies during surgery. Ok, it may be a bit too much to kill him, but I like it, call me sadistic :twisted: . Then, with better technology, the success rate gets a bit closer to 100%, while not reaching it, topped at 95%.
Would it hinder the player ? Or will it give important decisions to make ? Like, will I risk Lieutenant Dimitri Chadrin's life in order to improve his aiming ability, knowing that he has 40% risk of never coming back from surgery ?
Malick
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Well... I think I would consider it an annoyance. And people'd save/load until it was successful, I think.
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Hmmmm, ok, you got a point there cause that's what I would do. Didn't even think of how I would play it...
Malick
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people'd save/load until it was successful, I think.
You know the hearts of gamers. :D
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OK, I hate to knock ppl off the implant subject but if we are in 2084 (if I read the story right) why do we still have bullet using guns? If we can make laser tech on our own before we adapt alien tech (as in X-COM) then why don't we do so?
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I think Laser equipment won't appear until a while after the start of the game. The fact that it's available right away in the current demo doesn't mean much.
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So then will we be using things like flechettes (tiny explosive darts) for the 2084 bullets or will we be using some other type of advanced ammo? I am filling in our weapon wiki's so this info is important.
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As it is now, every weapon has only one kind of ammo. What ammo that is is not specified, but weapons can deal different kinds of damage. What damage type each weapon does has been documented already. From there, you can just make it up.
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correct me if im wrong but didnt the cannons in X-COM have different types of ammo? (Regular, High Explosive, and Incendiary)
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You're completely right. If you feel that should be in UFO:AI, put in an entry on the feature request tracker on sourceforge.
By the way, from what I've seen of your edits of the wiki, you haven't read the existing design docs. Those are still mostly on the SVN. Right now, you can't view them on sourceforge, but I've zipped them up and put them up here (http://home.student.utwente.nl/f.s.fournier/docs.zip). I strongly suggest you take a look, it will help you edit the wiki. If possible, can you add the stuff in that zip that isn't already in the Wiki?
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Sure, and thanks for the zip. I have been frustrated because i couldnt get to the SVN. This will be very useful and also you migh want to look at my other posts in the design forum.
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I did. But I didn't really didn't have any comments on your suggestions, so I didn't reply to them. They work for me.
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Also, would you like me to put the weapons and equipment into sections on the wiki? (Human Weapons, Alien Weapons, Equipment) and put sub-sections under that? (heavy, rifle, pistol, melee)
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In the text file, the weapons are divided into tiers (basic human, human laser, alien plasma, alien tachyon, psionic, armor). But you should just use whatever grouping you feel most comfortable with. Also, note that there are currently some weapons in the game that have no description in the documentation yet, such as the Kerrblade. I can't really tell you what group it belongs to, as it was added at random.
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ok, ill shoot for organizing it into something close to what you have in the doc. if you have any other wiki jobs, feel free to email me.
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Feel free to add anything from the docs to the wiki, but you'd better not change anything in the storyline page right now (that one's already in). There's currently a lot of discussion going on about the storyline.
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from what it sounds like, there is some great stuff to come, i think that possably adding turrets to the sides of the [human] crafts that would fire if aliens came too close or something would be neat, and same would go for the UFO crafts having turrets firing on the human troops. also im a huge starcraft fan, so the idea of turrets sounds good to me, either ship mounted or stand-alone. im not a coder, i wish that i could help more with the acutal making of the game, so thanks
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Turrets? I don't understand how those would work in the game. A UFO interception is a one-on-one affair, and it is assumed that all weapons on both craft can fire on the other craft. Turrets in tactical combat make sense in base attack missions. Apocalypse had special defense facilities for that purpose. Outside bases. though, I don't see how you would implement them and how they would be useful.
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something that could deploy like an item from somones backpack that would not move, but could cover an area
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Well, something similar to that is in the design docs: the laser mine. It actr pretty much as a turret. It's not implemented yet, though.
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BT, I think Moonuni was trying to suggest that prehaps the UFO crafts could have mounted anti infantry weapons, much like the machine gun on the door of a military chopper. Specifically for warding off would be boarding parties when the crafted was on the ground.
Mind you, I think this would be something found on later models of UFO as a response to Phalanx attacks. It would make sense that if you're losing craft to boarding parties when you're landed, that you set up some point defense turrets to stop infantry. But seeing as initial craft were for aerospace attacks, the idea of someone physically entering your craft when it was on the ground and hijacking it would be unheard of to the aliens.
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Oh. In that case, the role is more or less fulfilled by the Hovernets. Those are flying machines built by the aliens, and get deployed during UFO missions to protect the UFO. Of course, since they're mobile and actively seek out their target, they don't have a very "turrety" feel to them.
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Maybe have turrets first, and introduce the hovernet and the laser mine in later stages. So you can have increasing difficulty in these missions too.
In terms of gameplay; turrets, hovernet and the laser mine are different challenges. You'd have to develope quite different tactics to master them.
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turrents?? turrent is mach gun with movment sensor?
turrent=machin gun+movement sensor=automatic assault rifle= bad damage+2 enterance +8 soldiers = 4soldiers per enetrance= least two kills if not more= useless killing machine...
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Maybe have turrets first, and introduce the hovernet and the laser mine in later stages. So you can have increasing difficulty in these missions too.
I agree. I also like the idea of turrets mounted on dropships. This adds more tactical options --- retreat towards the protection of your dropship turrets, lure alines to your dropship, hide injured/rescued people in the dropship. Of course the bigger the dropship the better the turret (or you can even upgrade them when techs are researched).
As for ufo turrets --- would they be destructible? Infinite ammunition? I guess dropship turrets should be both indestructible and have infinite ammunition, but this could be an overkill for ufos... OTOH this is a nice tactical variety --- you do not destroy them, as you do with all aliens, but evade them, hide from them, etc. They should have limited range and power, though. Perhaps one shot per turn, so that you can make it shot at you heavily armoured soldier and then safely walk you weaklings into cover. Pure fun!
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Flash grenades sound reasonable
I like the idea too. I wonder what effect should the grenade have. Blindness? Paralysis? All the different conditions are really nice for tactics and they are really distinct: paralysis (the target looses a turn or two), panicked (the same, but likely to happen again), blindness (reduced accuracy), asleep (wakes as soon as attacked), confusion (semi-random movement), stasis (looses turns but immune to damage, not likely except by magic in an RPG:)), bleeding (looses health over subsequent turns), burning (the same but can spread), unconsious, under mind control, etc. Perhaps some weapons could also induce a condition?
melee weapons
I really like them. They are totally distinct tactically from ranged weapons and have their use when fighting inside buildings, when charging to defend a civilan/CEO/valuable equipment/etc., when fighting against enemies that have no ranged weapons/are out of ammunition/are temporarily disabled. They should be quite powerful and fast, to compete with, say, point-blank assault rifle in auto-mode for close combat (but the knife only has to compete with the pistol). I remember I usually killed most of the aliens in the final map of TD1 in maximal difficulty by standing next to them and hitting them repeatedly with autoshots from a shotgun or assault rifle (from afar I didn't do enough damage and so I risked retaliation). It would be more natual to slash them open with a sword several times under different angles...