UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: SL on June 14, 2013, 07:30:16 pm
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An Open Letter to the Developers.
Hello and thanks for taking the time to read this. Thanks for making this game on your own time and resources. While I would like nothing more than to claim that I registered to thank and praise, I have to admit I want to humbly submit some criticisms. I'm just a gamer, nobody important, and much of what I say below are simply my personal opinions, not truths. So you are welcome to take what I said with a grain of salt or ignore them entirely. Discussion of differences is a healthy part of any community and I hope you all understand that regardless of the level of criticism, I will do you no wrong and hope you continual successes in the future.
I thought about which part of the game I want to talk about first, but decided on an observation I have made on your forum. I noticed good input, good discussions, as well as criticisms, disagreements and inapprorpiate trollings. With the except of this last thing I feel that it is all part of anything that is put forward online onto public view and use, and subjected to public opinions and debate. I will categorically say that I support the censure of those who just want to bait or flame. On the other hand, after having been following you guys for a number of years, I have frequently noticed a distinct lack of tolerance for criticisms, the kind that are not trolling.
I am sure I don't need to tell you, but frequently the line of "If you don't like it then code it yourself" was used as some sort of discussion ender. I would like to politely submit that this kind of rebuttal and statement is not healthy, and actually not to your own interest. Imagine, if you go to McDonald's, and you said that a burger that they have made did not turn out well at all, is it an acceptable response if they reply with "if you don't like it then cook one at home yourself?" If you go to a ball game, or a discussion at city hall, or attend a for-charity concert, is it okay to say a player played badly, or a politician didn't do the right thing, or a singer at the concert sang badly, or even VERY badly? I think it is safe to say that one is not expected to make one's way into sports, or become a politician, or go on stage to sing, before one can criticize, even criticize harshly provided it is all done within the code of conducts of the premise in question.
You all have kindly put this game out in public. It is absolutely truth that you are doing it for free and using your own time. Just like anyone who posts their singing on youtube, or their funny videoes in the public domain, receiving *and* dealing with criticisms immediately become part of it. And I said earlier that saying "if you don't like it then code it yourself" is against your own interest, because you need people. There is a sticky post on the top of your forum right now asking for translators, testers, etc. etc. Yes, you need people actually more than people need you, because so many don't even register on the forum to say thanks. And by dismissing people's criticisms, legit or otherwise, with that line will almost certainly drive people away. I know I would be much more willing to work for a boss who is not dismissive like that even if he disagrees with the substance of my statements. Humility and thick skin, like in real life, will get many more people to help you. So please, please don't tell people any more that if they don't like something to do it themselves. Not only does it not deal with any issue itself, but you've just turned away the next potential tester, or money donator, etc.
I spent a bit too much time on the above so I'll quickly go into the ONE main specific things I most want to have the developers consider. As mentioned, I have followed you guys for a number of years, since 2.1 (or 2.2 I don't remember the number). Every release since, I can count on one change with absolute certainty, and it is that the new version will be HARDER. Harder, more challenging, more 'fun', or whatever you want to call it, the result is the same. Please consider the following :
There is already a difficult setting for the game. Those who want an extremely unfair experience can already play on Very Hard. Those who don't mind things being somewhat unfair and play on Normal. No, I'm not being facetious and I would like to submit the following examples for your consideration -
1. Aliens whacked Mumbai and are advanced and merciless, Phalanx will get the BEST that earth has to offer to ensure its survival. So, why is it that nearly all my soldiers have the rank of "Mediocre", which is one step below Average? Why are they less than average?? Are we getting the best or just anyone. Why is it that I run short on such simple supply as Med Kit??? Does the UN really want me to do the job or are they joking? And are you saying that the UN has set up my organization to save the world, but I can't get enough scientists to fill just a second Lab in May? Again, either don't write up the story with Phalanx as the last line of defense, or TREAT it as such. It is absurd that I can't get 16 Med Kits to fully outfit a second team until 2 months and 1 week has past.
2. The mission deployment design, for the lack of a better word, seems to be just deliberately inconvenient and unfair. Why are 4 out of 8 of my men facing the edge of the screen upon deployment? What are they hoping to spot? For that matter, the enemies are at the north side of the map. So why is it that even when there are plenty of space, 2 of my guys remain inside the Firebird and 3 others have deployed south against the edge of the map? Did they fly there to avoid with the enemies or to make contact with them?
3. A lot of the maps are just innately unfair to begin with. You are deployed in wide open space. Even if you move for a full round you can't get under cover, because there are just perhaps a couple trees or a beach lounger around. Now, if it is a terror mission where you are requred to assault a dug-in set of enemies, fine, I can accept that. But you know that railroad map which is frequently used for downed UFO, or that large workyard map, and many other maps where you are simply and deliberately deployed in a retarded position, requiring you to get shot at regardless of what you do as you run for cover. Please, there is no need to make things more 'challenging'.
4. So if the excuse above is that we are arriving on scene to assault already landed enemies, why is it that base defense is so ridiculous? I understand that rooms need four paths to link up a base to make it work, I don't begrudge that type of technical requirements even though no one would make a high security lab with four entrances. But why are there access points in workshops just to make things difficult? No engineer would design an incompetent base entrance where there is a balcony surrounding from above so arriving enemies can fire at your troops from an elevated position. Again, if the aliens come to my base, I expect things to be difficult for THEM, just like if I were to assault them.
5. So at one point, we could just build the Dragon, Starchaser etc. once we have done the long research, and yes they are already extremely long. When it was then designed to require a Dragon to take 5000 Alien Materials to make, did that person ask : "How will this IMPROVE the game?" Yes, it will make it harder, more challenging for some, more frustrating if you ask others, but how does requiring that absurd amount add to people's playing experience? The requirement for Anti-matter fuel is already a good balancing factor for the use of these new planes, specially considering that most UFO don't even give anti-matter upon disassembly. I played a 2.4 game to its conclusion and ended up using the same two craft types I started the game with, Saracen and Firebird. What's the point of doing research, or pretending to make progress when tech are too expensive to build or takes too long to gather? By the time I have collected 5000 for ONE new plane I would have already been so sick and tired of capturing UFOs that I'm ready for something different.
6. It takes ten people altogether 12 hours to make ONE sniper rifle magazine. Are you kidding me? Even the old Soviet Union wasn't that inefficient. At mid/late game, I have 5 bases and 8 soldiers in each base. They are each responsible to clean up after down'ed UFO in their continent. Each person is equipped with an assault rifle and a sniper rifle. And I constantly have to waste workshop time making sniper rifle magazine despite the few that become available for sale each day. And these soldiers were good at shooting and rarely wasteful. It galls me that I'm asked to defend the planet and I have to waste valueable workshop time, not on disassembly or building aircrafts, but just to make enough bullets.
I have so much more that I won't go into details, suffice to say that most of the tech I research simply aren't PLAINLY better than my starter equipment. I don't even like the nanoarmour because it subtracts TUs, which is far more important the protection. But I have saved the best for the last : When it says you have a 99% chance to hit, you probably don't. The number has always been very buggy when the target is on a slope. It doesn't seem to consider well the obstacles in between. I remember having a 100% chance of hitting an alien around the corner, but four shots fired ALL ended up hitting the corner of the wall instead of the target. These numbers have always been inaccurate, sometimes wildly so. I can't even count the number of misses at 99% I have in the course of a single game, and as a mathematician I understand the diference between probability and statistics, as well as the psychological aspect of it. Unfortunately it is the only tool available to the players and they are stuck using that number.
Yes, all these things, be they deliberate design or necessities, or shortcomings, already make the game plenty difficult. When I read someone wrote that 2.5 it will be even harder to not have casualties, and that there will be a punitive wound model, and now weight can literally half my soldier's TU's, and med kits, something that is used to keep me from losing irreplaceable combat experience will be nerfed/made harder, I question whether the developers are losing perspective.
Please, remember that a game is supposed to be, first and foremost, fun. More difficult does not always translate into that. If you are going to spend your valueable time and resources to make a change, please don't simply ask whether they will make it more challenging, but instead ask whether it will add to the player's experience as a whole.
Please, the game doesn't need to be harder, there is already a Very Hard difficulty level.
My apologies for the insane wall of text.
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That is an insane wall of text. I won't respond to each point individually, but instead will reply to a few of the themes you've brought up.
The game is getting more difficult
You should not take the claim that 2.5 is more difficult at face value. In the forums everyone complains about things that have been made harder, but you don't hear about all the things that have been made easier. For instance, in 2.4 it was very easy to face a sudden, early drop in nation happiness and lose the game -- especially if you did not expand very quickly. In 2.5, it's much more difficult to actually lose. You have to willfully ignore tons of missions or fall so far behind in weapon technology that you are losing tons of soldiers in each mission.
Likewise, the ground combat in 2.5 is more bloody -- meaning you are likely to take more casualties than before -- but the incredibly tight limits on the number of soldiers available has been raised. So, while it may be more difficult to carry out a flawless mission, it is much easier to sustain those losses over time. It is the same in the weapons department. Grenade launchers no longer have burst mode, but their range has been increased so they are more "useable". In air combat, some UFOs have gotten stronger, but advanced interceptors are cheaper to build and maintain.
These are just a few of the examples.
Difficulty is not always fun
No, but in a strategy game it is fun to face a variety of challenges and have a variety of ways to solve them. Previous versions of UFO: AI suffered from poor balancing, which too often limited the real, effective choices available. You mentioned a few of them in your post, such as the fact that advanced interceptors were too expensive to ever effectively deploy. Likewise, many of the weapons were useless because a few of them (laser rifles, grenade launchers, rpgs) did everything better than all the others.
At the core of the rebalance that occurred last year was an attempt to enrich the variety of the challenges a player will face and the solutions they have to overcome them. In order to accomplish this with the ground combat (where this was the biggest problem), weapons were given a series of advantages and disadvantages which set them out as unique tools. They were each made more accomplished at meeting certain tactical challenges and less accomplished at others. Sniper weapons are now the premier long-range weaponry, but they are poor at everything else. Shotguns and Plasma Blasters are quick weapons suitable for defensive close-range encounters, but are too inaccurate to be effective at range. Across the entire weapon set, the player now has a range of weapons which they will be rewarded for deploying and using effectively. For a lot of experienced players, though, this means that their old habits are no longer effective.
It's within this same framework of advantages and disadvantages that you need to consider the new wounding and weight system. The heavy weight of a grenade launcher is one of its disadvantages. The tendency to cause wounding even at great distance is one of the advantages of the needler. By developing a weapons collection that is multifaceted -- taking into account not just the default weapon parameters such as accuracy, number of shots, damage per shot, damage type and TU cost, but also the consideration of its weight, tendency to wound, and the ability to fire at targets out of view -- the strategic depth of the ground combat is enriched. Again, for a lot of experienced players, this will disrupt their old habits of taking 2 or 3 primary weapons, giving everyone a medikit and the heaviest armour. But this is part of the extension of choice -- and real, meaningful choice, not just a choice between two things that are essentially the same. For instance, you complained about the fact that a soldier carrying too much will lose half of his TUs. But a soldier carrying very little can gain TUs as well. Strategy games are all about balancing the strengths and weaknesses of your assets. The rebalance has sharpened the differences between them, leading some to feel the weakness of a particular weapon more acutely, but on the whole the player has a much wider and more effective range of assets to deploy than they did in 2.4.
Code it yourself and It would be more realistic if...
Yes, sometimes we can be dismissive of ideas. Read this post (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,4948.0.html) for reasons why.
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Hi and thanks for the response. I'm perfectly okay if you or others don't necessarily agree with some of the things I mentioned, thats completely fine. I would like however to point out one specific point, where I don't only feel we have a disagreement, but it is something that I think you are wrong on.
Likewise, the ground combat in 2.5 is more bloody -- meaning you are likely to take more casualties than before -- but the incredibly tight limits on the number of soldiers available has been raised. So, while it may be more difficult to carry out a flawless mission, it is much easier to sustain those losses over time.
Having plenty of raw inexperienced soldiers as potential replacements for soldiers killed because the game has been made bloodier is not a 'wash'. Meaning, the reason you gave for its justification does not at all mitigate the harm of the cause. I'm sure you know why. Most of the soldiers that you guys gave us have absolutely crappy stats, Mediocre, Mediocre, Average, Mediocre etc. In the past, when I lose 3 or 4 men during the course of a game, it hurt, specially if it is a CWO or 2nd Lt. or higher. I'm not just losing some men, I am losing a lot of accumulated stats, which translates to accuracy, TUs, etc.
Clearly having lots of replacements does not explain away why it is okay to have the new version kills more soldiers. That's like saying "Don't worry about me beating you up more because I'll give you plenty of first aids and free rides to the hospital". As I have already mentioned, there is already a Very Hard difficult setting for those who want combat very harsh, with more aliens to fight, more UFOs to deal with etc. And you guys seem to assume that most everyone is having a zero casaulty game and I'm seriously curious on how you got that data and whether it is representative of not just the elite few who are here.
If a soldier with 30 missions under his belt is killed, thats a lot of game time and experience lost that cannot be replaced. In the past losing several soldiers like that is painful, but not so frustrating that I didn't want to continue. Now I'm reading that typically a soldier die on every mission. So every time one experienced guy dies, he is replaced by a raw recruit, lowering the overall competency of the team, which makes men that much easier to die in the future, and the viscious cycle continues. I guess some may like this and consider it fun. But I'm afraid thats not me.
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1. Most of the stuff you mention can simply be solved by using a raw text editor, like notepad++. HowTo (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,6780.0.html). Create a mod. (http://ufoai.org/wiki/Mod)
2. I cannot see why it should be wrong if the people doing the work decide whether they want to spend their spare time on a feature or not.
3. Your whole post does not even contain a single thought about how to do things better. To be honest, I think its a waste of time to write such a wall of complaints about something you got for FREE.
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While I don't agree on every point - for example, you certainly have a right to complain about trooper positioning at the beginning of the round, but it's a thing devteam already stated they'd use feedback on and is more like a bug that should be reported instead of put in an open letter - I can well understand where are you coming from and can share some of your impressions.
Some things you don't have to worry about, though - for example, there was recently quite a great surge in critique of 2.5dev difficulty level, humans having mediocre stats where aliens are seemingly bulletproof sprinter-snipers, costs of new generation crafts taking materials equal to what you retrieve from dismounting big alien ships and so on (in fact, some of those problems I've made this account to voice, as for years I was content of just being a lurker myself) - but there are already a few adjustments done in regards to those issues and it's very probable that by the time 2.5 will be stable, it'll all get balanced.
As for ShipIt's post.
Most of the stuff you mention can simply be solved by using a raw text editor, like notepad++
Just because people can make mods doesn't change the fact that there are voices requesting some things to be balanced. In some way it may be exactly what there was a complain about here - attitude of 'if you don't like it, change it yourself' which can be easily avoided.
I cannot see why it should be wrong if the people doing the work decide whether they want to spend their spare time on a feature or not.
That is not wrong, and no one claimed it is. Certainly though people would react better to something akin to 'right now we're quite busy with [some features] but it is possible we'll consider it afterwards' or 'we're not particularly fond of this or that idea, because..' (which I don't say was never written).
Your whole post does not even contain a single thought about how to do things better. To be honest, I think its a waste of time to write such a wall of complaints about something you got for FREE.
That I'd disagree it. It wasn't simply wall of complain, it did direct attention, in rather polite manner to a few issues - and not even very obscure issues but things that already were mentioned a few times in the past. SL also mentioned he is aware the game is free, but critique, as long as properly formed and, dare I say constructive (because in this regard, just because of pointing some issue, solutions are readily apparent) does benefit the project.
While certainly repetition in mentioning what's could use some adjustment may be tiring - it's still good that the worries are voiced in a decent fashion as it underlines and supports the notion that there are problems perceived by sizeable numbers of users and thus could use some additional attention.
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"Imagine, if you go to McDonald's"... there is a real problem with your examples: standards. A ball player either catches the ball or not, the goalie stops the puck or not, the musician plays the correct notes or not, your McD's burger is cooked properly or not.... That is, the problems pretty much answer themselves, its obvious.
But to be honest, and here I feel we completely disagree; Its not enough to just stand up and say "I criticize". If you're in a restaurant, you have a problem with the food, the waiter asks what exactly and you say its undercooked, or burnt or soggy... there is an exchange of ideas, a working together to address the issue.
As an example, there was a problem with the smoke grenades, it caused frame drops.. People noticed it, some people complained.. one guy actually went and tested various values.. and it was changed. I honestly don't know how you can say that the dev team is dismissive of complaints, the problem is that they are a small group, with lives outside of this and therefore few hours with which to address all concerns.. is it really so much for us to try and meet them halfway?
Yes its valid to say this is wrong, but its so much more helpful if we can say this is wrong and here are some ideas (even if they're just brain storms) on how it could be improved. You have an idea, someone else maybe adds a bit, furthers it and we can get somewhere.
...'my soldiers have the rank of "Mediocre", '... This to me is being dismissive of the dev team's efforts, yes you don't agree with something and that's cool, but this game wasn't made just for me or you and it IS modable.. How much time was spent making it that way? I mean, the game doesn't have to be modable.. BUT IT IS. If you want better stats for your soldiers you can change it, nothing is stopping you, and all you need is Notepad. I feel like people just gloss over this like thanks, but thanks for nothing?!?!
I've only been lurking here since the stable 2.4, so maybe I don't have the correct perspective.. but I see a dev team that listens, and while that doesn't always translate into immediate changes (snapsnap dev team.. snap snap ;) ).. they DO take it into account when they move forward. I see constant adjustments and changes being made, and a lot of it affected by the players feedback. It is progress and maybe it feels slow, but in my experience there is real give and take, a conversation where both sides are working to improve this game.
Your concerns are real, and that's cool. I just hope you continue to log in and converse with everyone here, you really have nothing to lose and the more / better we communicate with each other the better this game can be. Also, reading about 2.5 is nothing like playing it; you really should try it! ... and then come back and talk about it. :)
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Just wanted to add my thoughts on this; I too have found the game getting harder, but when it gets to the point I get fed up of it, I simply "tweak" the files in 0ufos.pk3 to address the balance in that particular area (for instance, improving the starting stats for close combat and reducing the stats for heavy weapons; or increasing the starting funds). In that way, I get by perfectly fine. The only things on my wish list for the next version are:
(a) another alien species;
(b) UGVs in the full campaign (offset by increasing the number of aliens attacking bases)
(c) maybe an additional campaign set later in the story, where you have all the human scientific advances - so you're already fighting a full-scale attack, against corrupters and gunboats.
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(a) another alien species;
(b) UGVs in the full campaign (offset by increasing the number of aliens attacking bases)
(c) maybe an additional campaign set later in the story, where you have all the human scientific advances - so you're already fighting a full-scale attack, against corrupters and gunboats.
a. Already in.
b. Not going to happen in 2.5.
c. Would actually be easy to do in a mod (2.5-dev has better mod infrastructure, btw, so you don't have to modify the direct files).
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Another alien species? I haven't seen anything new myself. Depends how new you class "new" I suppose. Which one did you mean?
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Which one did you mean?
The hovernet, combat hovernet and combat bloodspider are not available in 2.4.
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Hello and thanks for taking the time to read this. Thanks for making this game on your own time and resources. While I would like nothing more than to claim that I registered to thank and praise, I have to admit I want to humbly submit some criticisms. I'm just a gamer, nobody important, and much of what I say below are simply my personal opinions, not truths. So you are welcome to take what I said with a grain of salt or ignore them entirely. Discussion of differences is a healthy part of any community and I hope you all understand that regardless of the level of criticism, I will do you no wrong and hope you continual successes in the future.
i can only second this. i am only posting improvement suggestions for good games. othere are simply not worth it.
i've been watching this project with great interest for a long time. i also try to play it every now and then, but i never keep playing much longer than the end of the first month, because the interface is so cumbersome. i loved xcom and i am grateful for every remake. but maybe you could put a little higher priority to make playing the game easier. i'm not talking about the difficulty level, i am just talking about the interface. some of my issues may already be solved, but i couldn't find information for such hotkey or similar. my last try just ended (version 2.4, around may 16th game time, was fed up with aircraft management and air combat). ok, so here it goes:
better highlight active soldier in battlescape - i often moved the wrong one
"next soldier" hotkey in battlescape and an option to set a soldiers turn finished (so he won't turn up again when i hit next soldier)
hotkey to deactive reserved time units for active soldier, or let me use the action that the units have been reserved for, without cancelling the reservation first
show grid in battlescape, i often moved to the wrong space
Show the movement path that my soldier will take before i click
add soldier information (stats etc) in ufopaedia. i would like to read up there, how movement points are calculated for example.
add melee weapon (knife etc) stats in ufopaedia
add aircraft stats in ufopaedia
option to quickly launch an aircraft for a patrol mission (suggestion: right click on base)
a button to access my soldiers inventory from soldiers menu (something like this is planned i think)
remove the repair aircraft cheat. it's alot faster to unmount everything, sell and rebuy the aircraft (suggest to make price depending on aircraft health at least, and remove sold aircrafts completely). this is an interface issue for me, because it is like a fast repair option, that requires many clicks. alternatively speed up ship repair speed by ALOT or add a single click cheat button.
show aircraft health when i can select one for a Mission, and also in the message about won air combats.
show me how the air fight went. i just see "lost a battle" but i have no clue why or how i lost it. this makes fitting aircrafts very frustrating because i have no clue how the air combat goes.
take me to the proper screen when i click a message (for example when i click a research finished message, take me to the lab, when i click a lost combat message, take me to the battle site etc)
some non-interface issues:
it would also be good to add a shipping time when buying anything, like xcom
pricing issues for crafted items have already been discussed and are worked on in 2.5, as far as i read
medikits can heal soldiers quite easily, but when i leave them wounded in combat they take forever to heal (i think also already being worked on in 2.5)
somewhere i read that aircraft armor has unfixable serious balancing issues. why not just take it out instead of letting us waste time with it?
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Some of this I agree with, some I think you just need to learn how the game works. I've played ufoai a lot more and eventually, the interface gets more natural.
better highlight active soldier in battlescape - i often moved the wrong one
Show the movement path that my soldier will take before i click
show grid in battlescape, i often moved to the wrong space
These three seem related. This happens to me once in a while too, but usually it's because my computer is a little slow and the fps gets a bit low, and also because I've zoomed into a new char and think I have him selected, but the guy I really have selected is not visible. That's my error though. Your suggestion about seeing the tracks of soldiers would help with this, and there is a way to see it in game, but I only see it when I'm waiting my turn. We both may need a little info on this.
add soldier information (stats etc) in ufopaedia. i would like to read up there, how movement points are calculated for example.
This is in 2.5.
option to quickly launch an aircraft for a patrol mission (suggestion: right click on base)
Agree. Launching a craft is a bit cumbersome right now, unless I'm missing something.
remove the repair aircraft cheat. it's alot faster to unmount everything, sell and rebuy the aircraft (suggest to make price depending on aircraft health at least, and remove sold aircrafts completely). this is an interface issue for me, because it is like a fast repair option, that requires many clicks. alternatively speed up ship repair speed by ALOT or add a single click cheat button.
You don't have to cheat, you know. They repair fast enough. You can also just let the UFO go and get it later.
show aircraft health when i can select one for a Mission, and also in the message about won air combats.
show me how the air fight went. i just see "lost a battle" but i have no clue why or how i lost it. this makes fitting aircrafts very frustrating because i have no clue how the air combat goes.
Hit the slowest speed button just before you engage, 5 seconds I think. Then you can watch it in painful detail. I usually watch on the 5 minutes setting and I can tell what's going on. If you watch it any faster than that, yeah, you'll just see the end result without knowing what happened.
take me to the proper screen when i click a message (for example when i click a research finished message, take me to the lab, when i click a lost combat message, take me to the battle site etc)
it would also be good to add a shipping time when buying anything, like xcom
Sounds like good suggestions.
medikits can heal soldiers quite easily, but when i leave them wounded in combat they take forever to heal (i think also already being worked on in 2.5)
2.5 changes med kits and healing dramatically. I like the new system better, though some will find it makes battle a too tough.
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hotkey to deactive reserved time units for active soldier, or let me use the action that the units have been reserved for, without cancelling the reservation first
You can deactivate reaction fire with [X], other actions should use reserved TU correctly. Note that I'm talking about 2.5-dev
Show the movement path that my soldier will take before i click
Options -> Gameplay -> Confirm Actions -> Moving Only (Setting Yes will ask you to confirm when shooting as well as moving)
a button to access my soldiers inventory from soldiers menu (something like this is planned i think)
In 2.5 you can equip your soldiers from the employees menu.
it would also be good to add a shipping time when buying anything, like xcom
Planned, but I don't think it will make into 2.5.
In fact it is planned to redo the whole UI, but this has been postponed, so it won't happen until 2.6 or later.
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pricing issues for crafted items have already been discussed and are worked on in 2.5, as far as i read
If you're looking for a production economy, 2.5's changes are probably not what you expect. You still won't be able to produce regular items and then sell them for profit. But disassembling UFOs (and selling the parts) will net you a small profit, so maintaining a large number of workers can now be "cost-efficient".
somewhere i read that aircraft armor has unfixable serious balancing issues. why not just take it out instead of letting us waste time with it?
You may have read me complaining somewhere about armour-piercing rounds. Armour itself has no balancing issues and I equip all the craft I can afford to equip with armour. However, in the backend code all weapons treat armour just like "extra HP", so there is no difference, for example, between the regular Shiva rounds and the amour-piercing Shiva rounds in terms of how they impact different UFOs. These two ammo types are the only ones directly affected by this at the moment. It's a mechanic with room for improvement in the future, but I'd agree that the confusion and lack of feedback you identified with air combat should take precedence.
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That could be a call for DT/DR system, as in Fallout series :)
Simple and works pretty good.
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That's my error though.
yes that's the point: it is too easy to make errors concerning soldier movement. especially for newbies.
You don't have to cheat, you know.
it doesn't even feel like a cheat, because it's so obvious. and no, they don't repair fast enough. i had 2 fighters and while i waited for one of them to be repaired i lost serveral ufos until i decided to just sell and rebuy one. maybe that also changes with the new pace in 2.5, but it's still a problem that selling and buying is a fastrepair.
Hit the slowest speed button just before you engage, 5 seconds I think.
i did that, but i still didn't know what happened. i have no clue about craft distances or damages done. i need numbers.
Options -> Gameplay -> Confirm Actions -> Moving Only (Setting Yes will ask you to confirm when shooting as well as moving)
that sounds painful. i have enough "are you sure you want to do this?" in my windows. i don't need it in games too. an automatic highlight on mouseover would be perfect. this is not the highest priority and i assume it would take some time to implement. but definitely a very nice to have.
If you're looking for a production economy, 2.5's changes are probably not what you expect.
not like xcom had, that was just stupid. but it should be cheaper to produce something myself compared to buying it on the open market.
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yes that's the point: it is too easy to make errors concerning soldier movement. especially for newbies.
Life is hard, you know.
it doesn't even feel like a cheat, because it's so obvious. and no, they don't repair fast enough. i had 2 fighters and while i waited for one of them to be repaired i lost serveral ufos until i decided to just sell and rebuy one. maybe that also changes with the new pace in 2.5, but it's still a problem that selling and buying is a fastrepair.
This only works for the early aircraft, which is available at the market. The advanced goodies, iirc, you have to produce yourself, so it won´t work later in the game. Also, in the future your orders will not arrive instantly anymore.
But still, imo you are perfectly right, the selling price for an aircraft should depend on its condition (http://ufoai.org/bugs/ufoalieninvasion/issues/5074).
There is also another feature request, which addresses the repair times for aircraft (http://ufoai.org/bugs/ufoalieninvasion/issues/4933).
i did that, but i still didn't know what happened. i have no clue about craft distances or damages done. i need numbers.
Of course the air combat system needs to be improved. Unfortunately nobody feels like doing it atm.
that sounds painful. i have enough "are you sure you want to do this?" in my windows. i don't need it in games too. an automatic highlight on mouseover would be perfect. this is not the highest priority and i assume it would take some time to implement. but definitely a very nice to have.
Did you even try?
not like xcom had, that was just stupid. but it should be cheaper to produce something myself compared to buying it on the open market.
No?
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"yes that's the point: it is too easy to make errors concerning soldier movement. especially for newbies."
Engage the confirmation.
"it doesn't even feel like a cheat, because it's so obvious. and no, they don't repair fast enough. i had 2 fighters and while i waited for one of them to be repaired i lost serveral ufos until i decided to just sell and rebuy one. maybe that also changes with the new pace in 2.5, but it's still a problem that selling and buying is a fastrepair."
Right off, maybe, put some armor on that and it takes time to equip, if yer just buying decoys then yeah.
"i did that, but i still didn't know what happened. i have no clue about craft distances or damages done. i need numbers."
do check yer pk3, aircraftman?? ..its beeen awhile, i think this is the right file 2 feeel?
that sounds painful. i have enough "are you sure you want to do this?" in my windows. i don't need it in games too. an automatic highlight on mouseover would be perfect. this is not the highest priority and i assume it would take some time to implement. but definitely a very nice to have.
not like xcom had, that was just stupid. but it should be cheaper to produce something myself compared to buying it on the open market.
Every open market I ever saw2, und4ercut... if yer lookin for profit, just sell all accumulated weaponsand shoot down every alien craft you detect.
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not like xcom had, that was just stupid. but it should be cheaper to produce something myself compared to buying it on the open market.
You should think of your workshops as specialised fabrication centres, not industrial factories which use the cost-efficiencies of scale to mass-produce goods cheaply. It sounds like you're still pretty early in the game, when workshops are only really good for disassembling UFOs. But the value of your workshops is their ability to produce items you can't buy on the open market (ie - fabricating items no one's ever produced before). This kind of workshop does not achieve any cost-efficiencies when producing a medikit or an assault rifle that has been mass-produced on the open market.
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i have no clue about craft distances or damages done. i need numbers.
check the ..ufoai..\base\0ufos.pk3
extract archive --> aircraftmanagement.ufo
its a simple weapon damage minus shield value = actual damage (EDIT: completely ignoring the weapon accuracy which should make/have an impact)
note that the damage integer within the aircraft specs are in fact the aircraft health points, so for example the firebird has a HP of 200.
So, depending on the aircraft, the weapon (that the aliens are firing at you), the shield ( aircraft armour) ..; the shield will usually let you take at least another hit.
.. for example the Saracen has a value of 125 damage (or health points), so against the PBW or particle beam weapon ( which has a weapon damage of 40) The first few armours ( they go +4 to +8) of polymer and alien plating will not allow you to survive the fourth hit.
Alien polymer ( of +16 I believe) , will give you not just the fourth, but the fifth hit, of course the sixth hit will kill ya.
Most ppl run Stilettos of course...
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i did that, but i still didn't know what happened. i have no clue about craft distances or damages done. i need numbers.
How many games do you play that give you numbers during an encounter? There is often an abstraction of the fight. Bit of a spoiler here, but as you research UFO's, you'll see their health bars. Then you can see how the fighting is going. And the graphics and sound do match the weapons that are being used if you pay attention, at least for our vehicle (though it may not be perfect), and the range of the weapons is shown graphically as the circle around our fighters and the ufo. One thing that is bad is that you can't really disengage safely like you could in XCOM.
But you're also missing a big part of the game. I rarely shoot down ufo's with fighters... I leave that job to my missile installations,which I build usually in groups of 3 around my base. If a UFO survives my missile traps, then I can usually shoot them down with a fighter before they take any damage. I don't try to engage every UFO, and many of them will land and then I can attack them there. Very few ufo's leave the earth on me. I take out 80% of them easily.
Also, don't forget to equip all the parts of your fighter. I don't really like this part of the interface, but there are multiple areas where you configure your fighter with weapons and utilities. Be sure all spaces are equiped with something. A stilleto will shoot down a fighter/scout well over 90% of the time. And make sure you put a good pilot in it.
Point being that there are multiple ways of dealing with UFO's in UFOAI besides just sending fighters at them. You really just haven't played long enough to learn them.
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Life is hard, you know.
but shouldn't the hard part be the strategy, instead of using the interface?
Right off, maybe, put some armor on that and it takes time to equip, if yer just buying decoys then yeah.
even with equipping all those items its alot faster than repairing. fully equipping a ship doesn't take more than 2 days. repairing takes over a week easily.
But the value of your workshops is their ability to produce items you can't buy on the open market (ie - fabricating items no one's ever produced before).
then it might be better to not have a workship and engineers at the beginning of the game - another point to make it easier for newbies.
How many games do you play that give you numbers during an encounter? There is often an abstraction of the fight.
yes and that's ok. xcom also didn't give numbers. but in UFOAI, when i lose a fight, i only get the information this information. i don't know how close i was to killing the UFO (therefore i don't know if i should send another fighter after it) or if my weapons had any effect at all. or if the long range weapons were of better use than the short range weapons. when i win the fight i don't know if it was pure luck (maybe the ufo does much damage on one hit but didn't hit often) or not. XCOM paused the game when a fight began and then let me see the progress. that was sufficient information to take decisions. i think in XCOM it was too easy to escape an UFO btw. of course it would be best, if a damaged vehicle loses speed.
anyways, i'll just come back next year or so, and see if i like later versions better =)
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Is aircraft repair time affected by anything the player does? Like, if I had 40 engineers in the same base as the aircraft...?
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Is aircraft repair time affected by anything the player does? Like, if I had 40 engineers in the same base as the aircraft...?
Iirc it´s hardcoded to repair 1% of damage per hour. We should assume each aircraft comes with it´s own ground crew.
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You can easily see how an air battle goes by slowing time to 5:1 when at weapons range. I play at the highest difficulty and have been cleaned out a few times and come back with different arrangement. It's kinda easy in a way because there is always only 1 UFO vs whatever you field.
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On the note of soldiers being mediocre, it's a matter of perspective. Let's look at it like this: Let's say you are recruiting soldiers from Army Rangers. Compared to civilian police, they are elite. Compared to all the other troops you are recruiting, or what you need, or what they could be, they are not very good; average or mediocre.
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On the note of soldiers being mediocre, it's a matter of perspective. Let's look at it like this: Let's say you are recruiting soldiers from Army Rangers. Compared to civilian police, they are elite. Compared to all the other troops you are recruiting, or what you need, or what they could be, they are not very good; average or mediocre.
That would be a good point if it would be relative. Unfortunately, at the beginning of the game, often one's average fresh grunt is mediocre while your best sharpshooter is merely decent. Coupled with the actual performance on the battlefield, it leads to assumption that stat description is general and a trooper who is good at something, is good when compared with completely untrained, talentless civilian, not when compared with experienced veterans.
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Stat growth has been changed (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,7845.0.html) in 2.5.
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I've had a vague thought about idle engineers, provoked largely by this thread.
Obviously you don't want PHALANX making a profit from manufacture and sale. That's a design decision and it's already been made. However, at the same time it feels to the player like we're paying 20+ highly trained engineers to play Galaga all day. They're part of a military organization; if they don't have anything to do, something to do *can* be found. Why not have idle engineers with available workshop space cut out some of the cost of facility and aircraft maintenance? Not necessarily so much as to make pumping a base full of engineers economically advantageous, just enough to justify not firing them all early game when you don't have much for them to do?
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UFO disassembly is what engineers should be doing when not producing something you need. They can net a very small profit from selling the scraps, and you can start stockpiling alien materials and antimatter you'll need later in the game.
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By the way, why are they called "workers" instead of "engineers" in the game? I would prefer the latter as they are obviously highly trained and specialised.
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This will get changed in UI2.
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My first base had no workshops. I find that good troop equipment is not very important. It's more a convenience than a necessity. As long as 1 soldier has 1 hp at the end of a mission it doesn't matter and I think you'd be hard pressed to run out the recruit pool. It's aircraft parts that are critical. I'm making alien based craft now and I still haven't researched any laser tech.
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That actually has occured to me in my latest game. I focussed my production on troop weapons and equipment, and was winning ground battles with ease well into the late game - an abundance of EP rounds, light and heavy needlers, and particle beam weapons with power armoured troops laid waste to all who came before them. Alas, I was still flying the basic intercpetors, so had little to no ability to shoot down the alien gunships, bombers and corruptors that were pretty much everywhere. Seeing as most of the high level weapons can be scavanged from the aliens, and production is very time intensive, I am sceptical if investing the time to make weapons that are not purchaseable (after a wait for them to be availiable to buy in decent numbers) or scavangable in large quantities is actually worth it as opposed to better aircraft.
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I'm well into "late game" on my current playthough in 2.4 on the "hard" setting. I'm pretty much dominate with 6 interceptor bases running Stingrays and two troop teams dropping in Herakles dropships (My favorite of all the ships, by the way - the deployment process is much more faithful to the original X-Com -- I always enjoyed the 'fall out' process and was always a little let down that my crew started already sort of randomly scattered in UFO:AI). The raptor doesn't seem to have enough room to pack in 8 fully equipped soldiers... and anyway, provides little or no cover in the first couple rounds (which, imo, is a main key to success in the harder difficulties)
I have more or less global coverage, at least on land, between bases and radar towers, so there's not too many UFOs getting by, mostly I let them land so I can feed the Antimatter beasts that are my ships... and to get both the heavy needler and particle cannon (as well as to scavenge for ammo), I conduct raids on one of the three alien bases I've located (haven't killed one since I don't want to end the game - I feel ending the game after a single base, especially when there's more than one was an unnecessary mistake... I mean, the game is unfinished, why make it end arbitrarily like that?? but that's another thing) anyway... My question is about the corruptor. I've run across one - I let it land, took it - the Alien AI is messed up, 6 of them hung out in the cockpit shooting the windows, so the mission was really easy -- but it's been a whole year (a YEAR) and I've not seen another one. I've done all the research there is, near as I can see - have the XVI map (which is broken - I went a whole month letting the aliens have their way, XVI went up 1% then dropped back to 0% when I recalled my people from the brothels...). Is there a way I can force-spawn some corruptor missions? also, bomber? Never seen a bomber at all, not ever in all the years I've played this game, I've never seen one. This is also the first time I've ever encountered a Corrupter too, but to be fair, I only started playing 2.4 a couple weeks ago, and the last time I played it was 2.3 and 2.3.1.
Anyway, I really do like the game, and I'm looking forward to it's evolution.
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Pretty sure the bomber (and gunship) are not in 2.4. XVI is also a mechanic not fully in the game, IIRC.
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An Open Letter to the Developers.
And I said earlier that saying "if you don't like it then code it yourself" is against your own interest, because you need people.
I came here just because I didn't like it and I was willing to code it myself. Period. Sorry for bumping old thread :)