UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Artwork => Topic started by: Destructavator on October 29, 2010, 04:48:55 am
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OK, I've been using the Stiletto model as it is with test videos for a new intro and such, and there's some things about it that bother me a bit, making me think we could use a new model for it:
1 - If it was really built as it is depicted by the model, with those dimensions, I doubt it could fly like a jet: How the hey could those little, tiny, itty-bitty wings that look more like fins provide enough lift for normal flight?
2 - It really does look a lot like a helicopter, just with the top rotors ripped off. I'm wondering if whomever originally designed it started it out that way and then made a quick and dirty change to try to change it into a jet.
3 - Looking through the data source I found a Blender file, although it doesn't have the texture source components (they appear to be missing, not packed into the file), and it doesn't have a high-detail (high-poly) version very suitable for video cut-scenes.
4 - It has markings and logos on it that I don't recognize, and doesn't have any Phalanx logo on it.
5 - I tried to alter it to make a high-poly version with more detail, just for rendering video clips, and it didn't work too well because, again, I don't have all of the original source components of the texture/skin.
I would be willing to come up with a new model for the Stiletto if needed - In fact I do have a partially finished small fighter aircraft on my hard drive that is about the same depicted size, and it wouldn't be too hard to touch it up a bit and display it here. I also of course have the complete source for all of its texture and such.
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Would something along these lines (pics attached) work better, if small details were added and things were tweaked?
If not, I can always save this model for something else.
I remember some talk about replacing the Stiletto model anyways, a while back.
Edit: The last pic shows the engines tilted, for vertical take-off/landing. Also, although this is slightly larger and a little wider than the existing model, it's still much smaller than the Saracen and could probably be something that would still fit in a small hanger.
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My concern with this model is that it looks a bit generic. Even though the stilleto might seem to defy physics a bit, it has a distinct look (as does the firebird and herakles) and I think that is it's winning element.
However, if you do make a new model, I think you should kick the poly count up a lot, even for the in-game version. The model in the images here could definitely use some extra polys around the engine and cockpit areas, and could use some smoother curves throughout.
I don't say this as criticism of the design style so much as a reminder that most of the artwork for the game is very old and poly tolerances have increased a lot, as far as I know.
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as i've said we need a new model for videos anyway. the model we have is the landed version in "parking position"
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I agree that the proposed replacement I've come up with is a tad "generic" - However it isn't complete, and adding details and decals to really bring it out would be very easy. By comparison, I can't do too much with the old, existing model because not all the source for all of the old one's details are available.
I don't mean to bash the old model when I say that, I don't like bumping existing artwork out like that, but I still feel that the old one should be replaced with something better.
That being said, should I go ahead and attempt to finish (add many details) to the proposed replacement I've come up with? I could do so, then afterward we could all look at the more complete product and decide if it would make a worthy replacement.
I'd also like to add that making a crashed version of my proposed replacement (as listed in the needed models) would be very easy for me, while doing so for the old one would not.
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My concern with this model is that it looks a bit generic. Even though the stilleto might seem to defy physics a bit, it has a distinct look (as does the firebird and herakles) and I think that is it's winning element.
not in the least, its just tiltjet, there are many planes with similar designs some as far as the 60's, the question is what kind of aircraft do we need, i assume that our hidden base doesnt have a landing strip to mark it, so the stiletto vtol looks perfect.
personally i am still in love with this stiletto like design (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=326e859d86a8078427eb9e7911a17418&prevstart=12). but if if you more interested in stol or dont like the stiletto compact "choppery" look you can go check the Harrier (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=96d703a88583f51323e2dcf3d546456&prevstart=0)or the latest f35 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=a39cd4b0434a2a519e06ee1b2e7b1b4&prevstart=0) design. (just dont forger to throw away that huge gun battery at the front)
as for the the newly proposed design, at this stage it doest says vtol to me but high altitude stealth bomber.
However, if you do make a new model, I think you should kick the poly count up a lot, even for the in-game version. The model in the images here could definitely use some extra polys around the engine and cockpit areas, and could use some smoother curves throughout.
i agree, if possible than few additional lines (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=ca8cf15e1cfbd8aece6e9d3c1197177b&prevstart=12) makes all the difference in the world.
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not in the least, its just tiltjet, there are many planes with similar designs some as far as the 60's, the question is what kind of aircraft do we need, i assume that our hidden base doesnt have a landing strip to mark it, so the stiletto vtol looks perfect.
personally i am still in love with this stiletto like design (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=326e859d86a8078427eb9e7911a17418&prevstart=12). but if if you more interested in stol or dont like the stiletto compact "choppery" look you can go check the Harrier (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=96d703a88583f51323e2dcf3d546456&prevstart=0)or the latest f35 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=a39cd4b0434a2a519e06ee1b2e7b1b4&prevstart=0) design. (just dont forger to throw away that huge gun battery at the front)
as for the the newly proposed design, at this stage it doest says vtol to me but high altitude stealth bomber.
i agree, if possible than few additional lines (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=ca8cf15e1cfbd8aece6e9d3c1197177b&prevstart=12) makes all the difference in the world.
It sounds like you know more about aircraft than I do - Although I strongly agree with your point about the big question being "What kind of aircraft do we need?"
From what I've gathered in all the time I've been with this project, I know this much:
- It should be capable of taking off and landing either vertically or somehow without a runway.
- It needs to be capable of getting up to rather high speeds and high altitude (for Earth-based technology) to catch up to UFOs (until something better can be researched in the game).
- It needs to be something that would look appropriate some 70 to 80 years in the future, but still look realistic (as opposed to the soft sci-fi "fantasy-ish" stuff, we certainly don't want that for this game).
- It needs to be something that looks like a small jet at a glance to a newcomer who hasn't played the game before, and *not* make a new player think it is supposed to be a helicopter of some kind, or otherwise confuse such a person, while keeping in mind that such a newcomer probably won't be an aircraft expert.
If I can know exactly what to aim for (for a design), I can probably model it, and add details.
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So we need something like the good old CNC Orca (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/cnc/images/0/08/Orca_Fighter_1.jpg) we all know and love?
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If I could get this thing (http://opengameart.org/content/future-fighterjet) textured up, would it be a good replacement for the stilleto or not?
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IMO the fuselage design looks fine (I think that if we want to have a plane as agile as the Stiletto is written up to be, it'll look some bit like a helicopter+VTOL hybrid on steroids) but I'd say we should remove the circular "wings" in the middle and replace them with more traditional ones (unless I'm misunderstanding what they are) for some lift and the two weapon slots.
On the amount of lift surface it has, I think it will end up staying airborne by power alone, though the wings will be good for turning.
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Yes! Something like that would work much better IMO than the old one, if a detailed texture was added.
One point of clarification: The Stiletto is supposed to have three weapon slots, as it also has the light one in the front nose area in addition to the ones on the wings (unless things have changed, I've been out for a bit again).
I actually have been trying to change the old model into something new, but the old .Blender file (from an old version) is incomplete and seems broken when I try to import it. Same goes for the exported MD2s.
I'll also say that I've been working slowly on the HUD for the new intro video.
I'll also need a cockpit interior for whatever Stiletto model we'll be using - If no one else builds it I guess I will, but the whole model for the Stiletto really needs to be decided on first.
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as it also has the light one in the front nose area
Yes its the most essential slot - Minigun fun *brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdddd* :D
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One point of clarification: The Stiletto is supposed to have three weapon slots, as it also has the light one in the front nose area in addition to the ones on the wings (unless things have changed, I've been out for a bit again).
I mentioned only the two wing slots because I commented that those circular wing thingies most probably couldn't house them, so the things should be replaced with more traditional wings (that would provide some lift too!) or the slots should be put in a different position (looking at the model, though, I don't think they would fit anywhere else).
The nose needs a bit work too to make room and remove the built-in weapons but the work for that doesn't look like much.
Yes its the most essential slot - Minigun fun *brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdddd* :D
If you want actual gatling good (and more dakka), you put a SHIVA into each one of the slots ;D 8).
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@H-Hour: Any progress on the new Stiletto model? I've gotten partway done with a model for a high-detail pilot to go inside the cockpit, for video cut-scenes.
I still need to add things to the model, and of course then texture it.
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Model looks very good, nice work!
Origin is going to take a stab at unwrapping the new stiletto model and then I will try and texture it. I think he'll also do something about those wings.
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Make it a female pilot! I want boobies! ;D j/k
Anyway nice model so far. :)
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For your pleasure. :) Origin did a lot of work on this rebuilding a high-poly version from scratch (with wings) to do a proper bake with normalmaps. I'm going to take a shot at dressing up the texture with a few more details, but I don't expect to change much before it's ready to go.
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For your pleasure. :) Origin did a lot of work on this rebuilding a high-poly version from scratch (with wings) to do a proper bake with normalmaps. I'm going to take a shot at dressing up the texture with a few more details, but I don't expect to change much before it's ready to go.
Oooh! Yes, yes, YES!
MUCH better than the old one.
One Note: When it is all done, I'll also need the high-poly, high-detail one for putting in cinematic clips and such.
Edit: At some point, we'll also need the cockpit interior for those movie clips also.
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Is there a way to clone Origin?
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:o
YEAH !
Gimme more of those models 8) 8) 8)
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just one word: brilliant
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Is there a way to clone Origin?
You cannot clone a brilliant person like him!
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Is there a way to clone Origin?
git clone origin destination
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Added some color to it and a few details for the texture. If Origin has nothing else he wants to do, I'll get this into game soon.
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HOLY!!!!
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git clone H-Hour origin/master ;D
YEAH - TOP texturing work !
I want to see this in-game :o
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Oh Dear, I just foresee one problem - When this makes it into the game, and is displayed next to or near any of the other, existing old models, the sharp contrast in quality might make some of the old existing stuff look so cheap and inferior by comparison... :(
Great work, Origin! ;D
H-Hour, you seem to be getting quite good at what you've been doing, too, with the texturing!
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Oh Dear, I just foresee one problem - When this makes it into the game, and is displayed next to or near any of the other, existing old models, the sharp contrast in quality might make some of the old existing stuff look so cheap and inferior by comparison... :(
If we grovel, maybe Origin will make us new versions of all our interceptors/dropships... after he finishes those soldier models of course! :)
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Ok, the new stiletto is now in-game for 2.4.
@bayo: I noticed in the aircraft menu the front is a little cut off and there's extra space in the back. I tried exporting the model in different positions (both world space and object space), but it didn't seem to effect it. I'm guessing the zoom is being generated by autoscale in /ui/aircraft_info.ufo. I noticed the same slight off-set position for the firebird.
@mattn: What should I do about the old model I removed? In data source we have a stiletto blend file, but will that have the texture as well? Even though I renamed the texture using TortoiseGit, it looks like the history isn't kept (http://ufoai.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=ufoai/ufoai;a=history;f=base/models/aircraft/inter_stiletto/stiletto.png;h=ac3b3062dee83d1fb3d0600275c2122b45b27620;hb=9e6ab0af4ab889fe5d0b0f11c959e0618a21e094)? The license info for the old stiletto is Lukas "Rastaman" Beyeler.
Also, the normalmap is a 4mb TGA file. I tried converting to PNG, but for some reason the alpha channel wasn't coming across from the TGA. Do you have any idea for another format we can use for the normalmap to save some space? As it is, loading the model in the aircraft menu leads to a slight delay on my system. The diffuse PNG is only 1mb.
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cant u ude the old model on a map (maybe a plane-cementry) or in the ufopedia (history of the stiletto)?
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cant u ude the old model on a map (maybe a plane-cementry) or in the ufopedia (history of the stiletto)?
I prefer not. The idea is to improve the quality, not leave it hanging around.
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Alright, I *finally* got the new Stiletto model to import into the new version of Terragen 2, an updated version that handles OBJ models differently.
I had a lot of trouble initially getting the SparrowHawk rockets to mount on the aircraft model and look right - The new model has so many funky angles they really wouldn't go on anywhere and not look like crap until I fudged things a bit by altering the racks to extend out from the body.
Now I need to work on getting some man-made structures in the scene, and we can *finally* have some usable new videos.
For a full intro I'll still need a cockpit and pilot model though. Do we have a good pilot model somewhere since I've been out? I could probably do a cockpit, complete with animated display screens and such.
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I don t like the weaponary placement at all.
As one can clearly see in the first picture the rocket batteries are mounted directly under the manoeuvering nozzles. I don't think its the best idea to store the weaponary in the jets steam.
The second problem is, the suspension doesn't look right. Since the color of the suspension is mismatched to the jets colors you can clearly see they are added afterwards. especially the lower girder seems to be as thin as brass. I'd like either to match the color of the suspension to the jet, or to give them a warning color (like red or yellow).
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The model looks beautiful, especially against the landscape. Excellent work Origin and H-Hour!
But I have to agree with Prinegon that the Sparrowhawk racks look a bit strange (though looking at the model, those two weapon slots don't seem to have any obvious good spots, so these racks will have to do or we need another set of wings). The racks don't seem very sturdy and if that back jet is supposed to be the manoevering jet that enables all the stunts Stiletto is supposed to be able to do the support beams seem to be in the way.
If I may suggest, you could try putting slightly larger beams a bit forward, at the same spot the fixed jets are. One beam to the small gap and another in the jet. They're still be in the way but at an angle I don't think will be as bad for manoevering.
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Nice!!!! I like the idea that the rockets are mounted on wings. But i think the rocket pods are too big and thats why it doesnt look right. What about if we integrate the missilepods into the model and as soon as they ready to fire they flip open - like the weapons of the RAH-66 Comanche?
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I actually had to try a number of times in placing the rockets before I ended up with that - I had a half-dozen other versions that looked much worse. I'll try moving them forward though, as Hertzila said. I'll also take Crystan's idea of shrinking them just a little bit.
They can't go directly on those downward-angled wings though - They look awful like that, and the wings are angled in so many funky ways they don't go on right anyways.
BTW, I was finally able to import a city from a link H-Hour mentioned, a huge model with no apparent license restrictions (I'll double-check at some point though, just to be sure).
The only big issue with the city model is that the base is angled on an uneven slope, making parts of some ends fly up into the air. I really had to fark with scale and size settings quite a bit to avoid having it half-buried in the terrain, or too high up, with an astonishing result: Ye Olde Fantasy-Wonderland Magical Floating City-in-the-Sky. (Ahoy!) :P
(Sorry for not having a screenshot, I unfortunately didn't save the render of the "flying" city in the clouds.)
Anyways, to get the result in the pic attached here I had to edit the city mesh and extrude downward the lowest edges, making the streets look like they are held up by supports. Not perfect, but nearly all I could do unless I started my own city model.
Back to the rockets on the Stiletto, those will be easier to fix (by comparison).
BTW, changing the green plane under the city to water, to look like a lake, would be fairly easy, if that would look better.
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BTW, changing the green plane under the city to water, to look like a lake, would be fairly easy, if that would look better.
Yes, I think the city was designed to be a coastal city, with the edges on a lake. Would probably look better (and you can show off some nice reflections).
Weapon placements on the stilleto are tough. I would suggest shrinking the rockets quite a bit, but still there's no good solution here. +1 for forward planning.
With the minigun up front, I think the barrel should just poke out a bit in the front. Most of the barrel would be built into the nose.
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Here's my best idea on the rockets. You'll have to build something that sits into the side but looks like a missile bay. It's not great, but would leave the overall shape of the stilleto intact. It won't match the rocket pod as it appears in-game, but I don't think that's a problem really. All the missile pods would be tailored to fit different craft anyway.
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Here's my best idea on the rockets. You'll have to build something that sits into the side but looks like a missile bay. It's not great, but would leave the overall shape of the stilleto intact. It won't match the rocket pod as it appears in-game, but I don't think that's a problem really. All the missile pods would be tailored to fit different craft anyway.
If we're going with internal storage and launch from missile tubes, I think it would be better for the bays to be in the bottom or bottom side of the craft. That way minimal amount of it get's in the way of engines.
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I actually like H-Hours Idea. Internal storage would be best. Those external batteries would totally burst the stiletto's capability for stealth. And since todays military vehicles (airhicle?) get more and more stealthy it would feel wrong for a future military fighter to be such radar visible.
To start a rocket for a jet it doesn't need much, since the jet just has to drop the missle. The actual start of the missles engine would first happen in its free fall. So there is nothing against missles being stored on a roundeel over a dropping chamber.
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Anyways, to get the result in the pic attached here I had to edit the city mesh and extrude downward the lowest edges, making the streets look like they are held up by supports. Not perfect, but nearly all I could do unless I started my own city model.
thats a great shot. and i also think that you did a really good job. its hard enough without aerodynamic and maybe more realistic rocketplacement (if u really want to change it.. try the airwolf design with rockets on the bottom. maybe easier http://gtasamugen.webs.com/airwolf02.jpg).
good p0ss (hope he is still active for ufo ai) found that city and you were able to integrate it.
(but also must suggest one thing: could you make the stiletto a little bit brighter? hard to say without seeing the video.)
i am getting more an more excited about 2.4.
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Well, after seeing several desired outcomes in different directions, I think we really need to decide soon what we're going to go with. If we go with totally internal and stuff just pops out when needed, that's actually the easiest for me because then I don't really have to alter the model by sticking things on it.
If I'm going to put small launch tubes on - that don't stick out very much - and are fed ammunition/rockets/shots internally, I'm willing to do that and polish it with some work to make it look good, but then I don't want to have to throw it all out afterward.
Or, I could do similar to what I have done but move the rocket racks forward or put them in a different spot, and possibly shrink them a little.
EDIT: I'm also willing to model custom racks, for example having them all in a straight line instead of rows of 3 and 4, or something else.
Should we have a poll and vote?
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Should we have a poll and vote?
No, you should just make a decision and go with it. Really, the intro video is the only place where I think this is an issue, as in-game you never really see this (even the equip craft screen doesn't really need to deal with the problem of HOW the missiles are equipped).
If people have good ideas they can share them (as some have), but in the end you should pick whatever you're happy with and make it happen. I M H O as the saying goes.
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How large can/would those internal weapon bays be, actually? Since in-game you can mount a number of weapons on them, they'd have to be able to hold the quite a bit more blockier TR-20 pods too, and I think SHIVAs, lasers, particles, etc. would require a mount with servos to be able to fine-tune the aim. All the while not totally blocking the engines (which I think requires them to be placed somewhat lower than what's in H-Hour's picture). If they can be that large, I say go with it. They're the best option if they're at all possible.
No, you should just make a decision and go with it. Really, the intro video is the only place where I think this is an issue, as in-game you never really see this (even the equip craft screen doesn't really need to deal with the problem of HOW the missiles are equipped).
If people have good ideas they can share them (as some have), but in the end you should pick whatever you're happy with and make it happen. I M H O as the saying goes.
What about the aerial combat that, at least at some point, was supposed to be more than launching the aircarft and hoping for the best? Wouldn't they show up in there?