UFO:Alien Invasion
Technical support => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Sgt. Hatter on March 08, 2010, 08:32:41 pm
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I've been thinking about this lately, and I've come to the realization that autopsy research really doesn't serve much of a purpose outside of developing stun weaponry and storyline research.
Basically, if you're just looking to kill alien scum, focus your research elsewhere.
I'd like to see biological research topics affect the battlefield a bit more tangibly. To that end, I'd like to propose the ability to examine enemies in combat. Here's how it might work...
Against enemies you have not researched: Nothing happens. The enemy is displayed as "unknown alien race." You gain no other information on them.
Against enemies you have researched: Not only is their race revealed, but you can now get additional information on the target, provided that someone currently has line-of-sight to the target. The amount of information is dependent upon the highest MIND score of all the soldiers that currently have line of sight to the target.
- 0-19 MIND: You can only identify the race of the subject.
- 20-39 MIND: You can identify the race of the subject, and get an idea of its health, as an adjective ("Unhurt", "Wounded", "Seriously Wounded", "Nearly Dead")
- 40-59 MIND: In addition to the health adjective, you get another indicating stun damage ("Fit", "Dazed", "Wavering", "Nearly Unconscious")
- 60-89 MIND: You can determine the enemy's morale. ("Stable", "Shaken", "Fearful", "Terrified")
- 90+ MIND: Superhuman mental capability has given you the ability to replace each of the adjectives above with an exact number.
Now, I realize that this idea might be quite powerful. There may need to be limitations. One might be that examining enemies is an actual action in combat, requiring you to spend a few TUs to size up your subject. Doing so would only be valid on the turn you do it, and only against the targetted subject. An unexamined enemy simply shows you their race.
Fluff-wise, you can justify this by having soldiers be briefed on the enemies that DivBio has researched, with their MIND score indicating how well they paid attention and remember those briefings. "This is a Taman. Here's where the vital organs are; aim your gun at these. Here's what happens when you expose one to high concentrations of CHOKE..."
Advantages To This Idea: Requires no rebalancing; has no effect on battle beyond providing the player with information. Some elements are already present in the game (battlescape already takes into account whether the enemy is researched or not.) May provide a more "even" playfield for players (depending on whether or not the AI "cheats" and has access to your unit stats when determining its tactical actions.)
Disadvantages To This Idea: More work, including testing. May provide players with information they shouldn't have.
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I quite like this idea. It also made me think of a simpler alternative: increase the damage of aimed shots against aliens you have researched.
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increase the damage of aimed shots against aliens you have researched.
This is exactly what this idea is intended to avoid, actually. Damage buffs are probably easy to code, but they affect game balance quite directly. My idea was something that improves quality of life and gives the player a tactical advantage, but requires some skill and planning to use and does not directly affect game balance.
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I did specify aimed shots, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
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I did specify aimed shots, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
Sorry about missing that, but regardless, it makes some crazy things possible and could directly jeapordize game balance.
I'm also rather... personally opposed to outright buffs and debuffs. IMHO, I'd rather deepen gameplay and provide a more subtle advantage than simply slap a few extra numbers onto that damage roll.
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Fair enough. I like your idea better too btw. Mine was just meant as an easier coding option.
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A very good concept, but hard work to implement...
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the idea of increased damage on aimed shots on researched aliens is logical, though.
what do you mean by unbalancing?
the increased damage does not need to be tenfold, does it?
if it would be 1% increased damage then who would even care?
if it would be something like 20% increased damage i would guess it wouldn't unbalance anything.
also, why bring so much mind stat dependent accuracy into it?
if you have researched alien psychology then you might get some more info out of a visible alien, i think it would be more simple that way, too.
actually the increased damage should depend on how accurately you hit the point you were aiming for.
i mean, if you aim for the center but you hit the leg then that should not give you increased damage.
oh, well, now that i started... if anyone is amused by this, probably very low priority idea, i guess i might as well write all i got to say about the anatomy research generated damage bonus, but it will take a bit longer.
i do not know how damage randomness is handled in the game, and i have not been playing the game for some time.
i hope we know such things like shot distance and the spread (non-accuracy) of a single aimed shot.
then we should be able to calculate how accurately the shot hit whatever the soldier was aiming for (which, afaik, in game is the center of the alien, but assume the "center" is a vital bodypart).
if we do not know what to aim for, or if we are not aiming for any vital parts, the damage could be, say, 50..100% at random.
that is because we might accidentally hit something vital even if we were not aiming for it.
but if we are knowingly aiming for something vital, then the damage would be something like
50+50*(1/(1+miss^2))..100%
where miss is the distance from the center of the alien. a perfect center hit would be miss=0. maybe it should be like miss^4 rather than miss^2.
so, if we hit perfectly accurately (which presently means the shot perfectly hits the center) then we would do 100% damage, dropping very quickly to the non-aimed random 50..100% if we miss the "center".
and some more about the alien health estimations.
i would prefer numerical % estimations rather than words like 'wounded', because the player would need to memorize what % the word 'wounded' corresponds to.
in my opinion, in the most preferred way, there could be 2 additional variables for a non-researched alien that would be maximum and minimum health estimations.
if a shot hits a non-researched alien then we do not know how much it was exactly, but if damage is between 50..100%, then we could know the lower and upper bounds.
so, each time an alien is hit, the two variables would be updated.
btw, this is different from giving randomly inaccurate numbers based on alien's real hitpoints.
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the idea of increased damage on aimed shots on researched aliens is logical, though.
what do you mean by unbalancing?
the increased damage does not need to be tenfold, does it?
if it would be 1% increased damage then who would even care?
if it would be something like 20% increased damage i would guess it wouldn't unbalance anything.
Logical, maybe. Yeah, you could make the argument that you know where to shoot them to make it hurt more, or disable them more quickly. But consider this: how much damage can you safely add to make it useful with all those weapons, without breaking any of them? If it's only 10%, then the damage is probably not worth it; people are not going to give doing autopsies an increase in priority. It'll have no meaningful effect on gameplay. If it's something like 30-50%, you risk making weapons with already-high damage (like the coilgun or particle beam rifle) broken in endgame fights, since armor seems to be subtractive, rather than divisive.
also, why bring so much mind stat dependent accuracy into it?
What else does Mind do right now? Psionics aren't implemented yet, so right now Mind is pretty useless. This idea would give it a use, without meaningfully affecting game balance. Even once psionics are around, this would make it beneficial to have non-psionic soldiers with higher Mind, since they can glean more info from researched enemy types.
It's also the only stat I could think of that would justifiably apply to this. If you got a better stat for this to depend on, by all means, say so.
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Im currently working on some prototyping on my test build, and one of the thing I added is "critical hit".
Now critical hit is not just "add damage", depending on the hit type, the effect can vary to making the enemy fall (for powerfull weapons, grenades ...), making him drop his weapon (lucky shot in the weapon ! but the enemy takes no damage), and so on ...
The two real damages buffs are a damage multiplier (<2) and an armor bypass. I think those criticals could be "unlockable" depending on the research made on the aliens and the armors, and would fit that "research gives battle advantage" idea, and since its only on critical hits (very low % chance), i dont think it would be a threat to the game balance. What do you think ?
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That sounds great, Yatta 8)
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Im currently working on some prototyping on my test build, and one of the thing I added is "critical hit".
Now critical hit is not just "add damage", depending on the hit type, the effect can vary to making the enemy fall (for powerfull weapons, grenades ...), making him drop his weapon (lucky shot in the weapon ! but the enemy takes no damage), and so on ...
The two real damages buffs are a damage multiplier (<2) and an armor bypass. I think those criticals could be "unlockable" depending on the research made on the aliens and the armors, and would fit that "research gives battle advantage" idea, and since its only on critical hits (very low % chance), i dont think it would be a threat to the game balance. What do you think ?
Not for network games, or at least you should be able to turn them off.
Other than that, great idea! Perhaps you could make so that the damage modifiers are unlocked on autopsies and armor bypasses on armor research? And another thing, you could make so that the enemy drops his weapon in case you hit it in the arm. I remember that there was talk about damage done on different body parts. Not regional damage but instead that if you hit the guy in the arm, accuracy lowers and TU for shooting increases (head: big accuracy loss, sight worsens; legs: momevent cost increase etc.). If critical, guy drops his gun. Not yet implemented but you could make it work now that on some crits the guy loses his gun and receives normal damage.
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Me: I think those criticals could be "unlockable" depending on the research made on the aliens and the armors
You: Perhaps you could make so that the damage modifiers are unlocked on autopsies and armor bypasses on armor research?
Me : Huh ?
About damage localisation, afaik theres no support for that in the game source. Im not sure if the engine even allows it, nor if that would fit the game design. Theres just a small % chance, when you do a critical, that the enemy will drop his weapon.
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What else does Mind do right now?
i thought it might make the soldier learn faster. and maybe there will be some psionics some day. strength, afaik, does not do anything either, but some day it probably will.
what i thought of as not so nice was to bring this 'supernatural perception' thing into the game.
i got the impression that this is not this type of game where such thing would sound good.
btw is there some explanation of damage randomness in ufo:ai somewhere where i could read it?
or is there none at all?
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*talk*
About damage localisation, afaik theres no support for that in the game source. Im not sure if the engine even allows it, nor if that would fit the game design. Theres just a small % chance, when you do a critical, that the enemy will drop his weapon.
Sorry about that. I have a bad habit of jumping over small amounts of text; in this case, specifically over that "and armor" part.
What I was basically saying is that I think it would be better if that crit would cause normal damage in addition to dropping the gun.
what i thought of as not so nice was to bring this 'supernatural perception' thing into the game.
i got the impression that this is not this type of game where such thing would sound good.
How else are we going to explain XVI and future psionics?
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depending on whether or not the AI "cheats" and has access to your unit stats when determining its tactical actions
I think the AI already cheats like that because my troops can al be in the field and one may of still be wounded from the last battle i had and the AI usualy just tries to kill him first with their first few shots i think it cheats >:(
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::)
Maybe the aliens just see your soldier bleeding & not being really fit ? ;)
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Ya that could be true
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::)
Maybe the aliens just see your soldier bleeding & not being really fit ? ;)
they would need to research 'live human' for that.
how would they otherwise know that we are not supposed to bleed?
or even what this red thing is.
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what i thought of as not so nice was to bring this 'supernatural perception' thing into the game.
i got the impression that this is not this type of game where such thing would sound good.
This is hardly "supernatural perception." This is "learning about your enemy and applying what you know in combat." The only time anything possibly-supernatural is involved is when a character has a Superhuman (90+) MIND stat (go check it out in game; stats over 90 are described as "superhuman" by the game itself.)
Let's look at it this way: You point a gun at a human, and you know that if you put a bullet in his head or the center of his chest, he's liable to be dead meat, because that's where the brain and heart is, respectively. You also know that if a human is pale and covered in blood, he's liable to pass out or die from blood loss. If a human is staggering around, clutching his head and doesn't respond coherently when you talk to him, he's likely stunned, in shock, seriously drunk. If you look at a person, you can get a rough idea of how healthy or hurt they are. Basic anatomy and the study of human nature, right?
Well, if you apply that to aliens, it's not gonna work so well. What if that alien keeps his heart about where we keep our intestines? Or if they've got a heavily-protected braincase, like the Shevaar? What if they don't react to blood loss like humans do? Or have significantly more blood in their bodies? In any of these cases, if you try to make judgements based on what you know about human anatomy, you're going to be wrong. Maybe not terribly wrong, but wrong all the same.
With this feature in place, your troops will be able to use the knowledge the R&D department has gained about alien physiologies to judge your foes accurately. This gives them a tactical benefit in combat (knowledge about the enemy's condition) that does not affect damage or to-hit calculations in any way shape or form, which means that it doesn't affect game balance at all.
After all, you may have a soldier that's capable of telling you that one of those three Ortnoks are half-dead and another is about to pass out from stun damage, but it still doesn't matter if it's their turn and all three have particle beam cannons pointed your way; you're probably gonna get turned into chunky bits regardless. Now, if it's your turn and you want to know which Ortnok to shoot first, that's a different story.
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Maybe a 'decrease until researched' would fit better? The point of the early game is to cope with superior alien technology, anyway. It would also fit in the storyline, the aliens slaughtering human armies at first, later losing to small spec-ops squads.
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Advantages To This Idea: Requires no rebalancing; has no effect on battle beyond providing the player with information.
... something that improves quality of life and gives the player a tactical advantage, but requires some skill and planning to use and does not directly affect game balance.
IMHO, I'd rather deepen gameplay and provide a more subtle advantage than simply slap a few extra numbers onto that damage roll.
This gives them a tactical benefit in combat (knowledge about the enemy's condition) that does not affect damage or to-hit calculations in any way shape or form...
People keep coming into my thread and suggesting stuff that directly affects game balance; combat rolls, accuracy, damage calculations, statistics... it's starting to get to annoying.
I ask you all this: how many times, and how many ways do I have to say it before someone gets the hint? Look, if you want to suggest your own idea of a benefit to autopsy research that affects game mechanics directly, go ahead. However, please do it another thread.
My idea focuses around a tactical benefit to autopsy research. Something that directly and meaningfully affects what tactics you use in the battlescape (how you pick and prioritize targets, and how you choose to deal with them), not something that changes which weapon is the latest FoTV (Flavor of The Version). I'm trying to suggest something that encourages players to think in terms of variety and not simply spam whatever combination is most uber. And unfortunately, when you just play with damage values, that's just what you do; you're simply changing the name and model and availability of the latest ubergun.
My side-goal is to introduce an idea that does not affect game balance, requires a minimum of testing, and hopefully takes a minimum of coding to pull off (preferably by leveraging existing functions whenever possible.)
I realize that simply slapping a modifier onto a damage roll under certain situations is easy to code. But that's not the point of this thread. Anybody could've suggested that. In fact, it seems that since I brought up this topic, everyone and their mother has. The point of this thread is to provide a benefit to autopsy that totally avoids that line of thinking. On a personal standpoint, I'm very sick and very tired of "Nerf this! Buff that!" thinking, especially in strategy games.
I'm not trying to say you can't suggest counter-ideas. But I am saying they should at least accomplish all the same things as mine in a better way, if not more. I'm tired of repeating myself.
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ok, no talking about how knowledge of vital organs might be useful for aimed shots and what its natural effect might be :X
i think the solution you propose is too abstract.
better understanding of alien health condition is nice, but stubbornly excluding damage bonus for aimed shots is unnatural.
i admit i am thinking from a research strategy and roleplay point of view rather than abstract chess-like tactical gameplay rules point of view.
i would call it 'trying to figure out how the game could become more consistent and immersive' rather than 'senselessly slamming damage bonuses and penalties here and there'.
maybe the reason you got so many "offending" posts was that other people had similar concerns, who knows, you might want to ask them.