UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: Viento on December 29, 2009, 04:23:10 pm
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Hiho!
I'm later in the game (2.3) and have researched all weapons (heavy needler is the last one). The choice of weapons in most maps is clear (lots of coilguns, small snipers and a few attackers with stun grenades + PB-launcher) but sometimes you need to get into ufos, which means deadly close quarter fighting.
I should point out right here that I am no fan of using alien weapons (I just think they are made for aliens). I love to use the ones developed by humans (using alien technologies) or even standard weapons.
Observation + Problem: I realized that the best weapon for close quarter combat is the coilgun because it is the only weapon that stands a chance to kill the enemy with just 1 shot. If aliens are allowed to fire (at this close range) my soldiers are almost always killed. I find this frustrating because my soliders have 60+ skill and I don't like to lose many of them. I didn't care about losses at the beginning but after a long time I can't just let 3 of them die in a terror ufo. I retry. Retry. And quit quite often.
Personal Opinion: It just doesn't feel right for the most powerful, huge, bulky sniper rifle to be the best close quarter combat weapon in the game.
Consequence: I think we are missing a human close quarter combat weapon that takes the described function of the coilgun. The sniper skill should not be the most important inside a ufo. I expected the assault and close quarter skills to be important but there are no human weapons that are suitable in this phase of the game (laser rifle + pistol are just ridiculous against medium armour mutons).
Or am I missing an existing human weapon that is well suited for active close quarter fighting (+ deadly reaction fire) against muton + sheevar in medium armor?
Andy
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please, try flametrower and grenade launcher :-)
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Grenade launcher is fine. :) (but not very useful in cqc, I find. Too much damage for myself with PB grenades)
Flamer: good idea. Never even tried it. :)
Still: Something like a human short assault rifle or a machine pistol that does decent damage would be great! ;)
Andy
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Yes, I've noticed the machine pistol and the SMG in some cases do about no real damage at all, sometimes even with a full-auto spray up close where every shot hits, far too weak... (in 2.3)
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Since machinepistols, shotguns and all the laser weapons are nicely balanced in the first part of the game (before aliens have medium armor I used most of them) but become useless later on, I would suggest the following:
After the medium armor is researched, Phallanx realizes that some of its weapons have almost become useless.
Consequently they improve them... (new research options)
Just my ideas that sprang to my mind:
> new kinds of ammunition for the standard weapons specially designed to be armor piercing. One could for example use alien material to make the bullets (which would give "alien materials, 3 credits" some importance in the game) or rebuild the weapons with alien material, so that they can stand more stress.
> better energy source for the laser weapon => more power => more damage. Plus a good opportunity to make the heavy laser a bit stronger. :) It's too weak compared against the machine gun in 25 round burst.
Just a few ideas that came to my mind after I read Destructavator's posting.
Andy
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New weapons are out of the question IIRC, devs have said that no new human weapons for official campaign. Human-alien hybrids might have hope though.
But one idea is that PHALANX invents something to replace the gunpowder in normal guns. A new type of round that, for example, uses alien plasma tech to propel itself out of the barrel. Or gunpowder more similiar to high explosives. Or something.
Also try the flamer. It has not failed me yet.
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I agree with Viento, it would be nice to re-engineer the old weapons to make them better, after a certain point in the game - and that may be a key point, to have such a thing but only allow it after a certain "milestone" is passed. Otherwise the player could un-balance things by starting research on improved human weapons right at the start of the game.
It could be after something is researched, or some other trigger that an email comes in the player's inbox from one of his/her staff (game characters) where someone thinks newly discovered technology should be used to remake human weaponry to keep up. It wouldn't need to be complex or hard to code.
As Hertzilla said though, perhaps new ammunition would be enough.
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Perhaps we could have a few things in conjunction required for upgrading the old weapons.
Some of the alien materials are obviously stronger and denser so using them along with propelling bullets in a different manner would allow for new slug/penetrator rounds to be used. Imagine it being sort of like extremely advanced depleted uranium rounds.
Also don't rule out the idea of using biological and chemical weapons for such things. After all the only good alien is a dead alien. Perhaps another heavy weapon could be a sabot style armour piercing round loaded with a chemical deadly to the aliens.
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...After all the only good alien is a dead alien...
Most of your post I agree with, but not this point - One goal that comes up and becomes more important as the game progresses is capturing live aliens for interrogation and research. At the start of the game, yes, shooting them dead works fine, but later on this is not as true.
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Hello,
I believe that is the purpose of modding, and is what I was trying to do (experimenting with adding a new grenade launcher ammo) and I had partial success that resulted in [what i call] 'not working ammo'. This experimentation exposed modding attempt to be complex. :o
I initated a post in forum in modding section asking for information, because I could not find information nor locate any shared tidbits on the wiki or other forums in relation to modding the scripts.
Later I killed the post promptly, because the replies is starting to become insulting. :(
Apparently Dev's are busy and focus is still on the development of 2.3. :)
Toodles.
Roy
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Most of your post I agree with, but not this point - One goal that comes up and becomes more important as the game progresses is capturing live aliens for interrogation and research. At the start of the game, yes, shooting them dead works fine, but later on this is not as true.
Well... yeah I suppose thats true. So perhaps the chemical/biological weapon idea can continue into more things that can incapacitate them. Perhaps even an area of effect weapon that will KO them similar to the stun baton/electrorifle thing.
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for closer combat, I uses flamethrower sometimes, but it isn't quick enough for me. and grenade launcher doesn't suites me. I also feel the need of a one shot kill close combat weapon. in most time I try with shotgun :(
i like the idea about chemical/biological weapons, hope to see great features in future
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My grenadier always has a reload of flechette shells ready to go for entering a ship. I find that those are fantastic for CQC, don't know how they stand up to medium armored aliens yet, but you can have your grenadier do reaction fire with them, and so far, it pretty much turns any alien they hit into a big pile of pulp.
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As for chemical agents, I'd believe it would be more like a hasty way how to even the battle at the beginning. These things would usually take at least a few seconds to kick in, giving aliens some time to return fire.
For CQB, I'd imagine a multi-barrell short coilgun that would allow full auto fire.
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Sure that sounds cool and viable, though I am not sure if it is going to be a clone of particle beam rifles.
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- Industrial Diamond Shot Shells (i.e. Buckshot made of diamond shards instead of lead pellets). Industrial Diamonds are relatively affordable, although they certainly cost more than Lead.
- Standard buckshot fired from the in-game Coilgun would have more range and cause a lot more damage considering the speeds involved.
- I agree with an earlier post that improvements to Laser power sources would be a feasible option. After all, you're studying alien Plasma and Antimatter technologies, among other things. Same weapon, different ammo cartridge, different color beam...
- An electromagnetic Assault Rifle is theoretically doable with a good enough power source, but this falls into the realm of a new weapon. I can see this happening before a five-barrel coilgun in the real world. Actually it would probably go Sniper, then Semi-Auto, and then 3-Round Burst, but anyways... The way I imagine this would be solid metal bullets/slugs/whatever with a basic automatic feeding mechanism as used in modern weapons. The difference would be that the barrel would be a rail or coil accelerator and the ammo would probably feed in as far back as possible, potentially having the magazine attach to or near the shoulder stock. The weapon could release several projectiles each time the accelerator "fired". Full auto wouldn't be possible unless you had the power to keep the accelerator on for several seconds, but firing a 3-shot burst wouldn't take any longer than firing one. The rounds would probably be smaller than those used in a sniper weapon.
- Chemical liquid or gas grenades would certainly work. Biological possibly as well. Biological darts as in X-Com Apocalypse probably wouldn't be a good option since the darts would have to penetrate the alien armor to be effective, which kind of nullifies the whole idea. A toxic gas would probably be rendered harmless since aliens use a breathing aparatus. Something that could quickly be absorbed through the skin and lead to violent convulsions or temporary paralysis (once it kicks in) would probably work best. We have plenty of such nasty things in the real world today so Phalanx would certainly have access to it. Although, a Concussion grenade might work even better. Armor won't offer much protection with those.
Just some thoughts after reading this thread.
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- Industrial Diamond Shot Shells (i.e. Buckshot made of diamond shards instead of lead pellets). Industrial Diamonds are relatively affordable, although they certainly cost more than Lead.
- Standard buckshot fired from the in-game Coilgun would have more range and cause a lot more damage considering the speeds involved.
Erm...don't you need magnetic projectiles for coilgun? AFAIK pure diamond are not magnetically active, altho it might be possible to create irom projectiles with diamond coating.
Speaking about hi-tech projectiles, what about actual hybrid projectile weaponry, that is projectiles propelled by more than one way, for example chemically and electromagnetically? Or...laser propelled projectile? I've heard about experiments with this method used on lager scale...
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Hm, looking at this post again, after I've reached the same stage in game again, when all my laser rifles and the standard ones can't even scratch the medium armour aliens.
I actually don't care much what exactly (e.g. regarding technology) happens to change the fact that most weapons just lose their right of existance once medium armour comes into the game - as long as there is some kind of change.
I find it (again) very annoying, even more annoying this time because aliens are much more deadly at my difficulty setting now and even though they have no needlers or heavy needlers yet, it's very hard and sometimes really disillusioning. With the excellent laser weapons rendered useless, small sniper rifles seem to be the only remaining tool at the moment for medium and long range fighting. :/
Viento
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Heavy laser still performs good against medium alien armour, and you can use plasma blades and kerrblades in close combat. Even laser pistol kills them if fired long enough :)
Coilgun is great too, but i don't think it's "best weapon in Close Combat", as stated by the OP. Plasma blades are definitely better, and heavy needler is no worse too.
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No new weapons... and yet weapons currently under development or actually in use make the game milieu of what was once "current weapons" pale in comparison. D/F lasers wouldn't stand a chance against solid state laser rifles that out-range and out-power them. Weapons that use plasma for propellant or even use it as a power source for advanced projectiles once they reach the target. Current thermobaric 25mm shells that make the grenade launcher's pb rounds look ridiculously weak.
UFO:AI is a great effort but it wouldn't hurt to admit that it's background tech is a bit dated in some respects.
But, working within said milieu, the infinitely sharp broken shards from the first attempts to make monomolecular blades gives some bright tech an idea and he improvises a process to make even smaller pieces which he puts edge-on into a nanocomposite cup sabot round for a shotgun... and a very deadly short range weapon results.
But shotguns aren't a new weapon, so... ;D
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Another proposed CQC upgrade for an existing human weapon...
... but this would actually require a model change so I don't know...
... using all the new materials tech to replace the handle of the monomolecular blade with a telescoping shaft that extends instantly upon command. The result would be akin to the naginata of medieval Japan and would multiply the damage and the range of the blade.
No, it's not a Minbari fighting pike and I don't know why they'd pick a fight with a fish anyway...
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- An electromagnetic Assault Rifle is theoretically doable with a good enough power source, but this falls into the realm of a new weapon. I can see this happening before a five-barrel coilgun in the real world. Actually it would probably go Sniper, then Semi-Auto, and then 3-Round Burst, but anyways... The way I imagine this would be solid metal bullets/slugs/whatever with a basic automatic feeding mechanism as used in modern weapons. The difference would be that the barrel would be a rail or coil accelerator and the ammo would probably feed in as far back as possible, potentially having the magazine attach to or near the shoulder stock. The weapon could release several projectiles each time the accelerator "fired". Full auto wouldn't be possible unless you had the power to keep the accelerator on for several seconds, but firing a 3-shot burst wouldn't take any longer than firing one. The rounds would probably be smaller than those used in a sniper weapon.
There's already an electromagnetic rifle just like this. Perhaps if the 3-shot burst cost less action points it would be quite effective in cqc.
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If you wanna talk real...I don't think that rapid fire e-mag powered rifle is the way to go. You'd need high temperature superconductors to keep the gun from overheating and extreme power consumption, and I think that is far beyond Phalanx's ability to create.
A hybrid e-mag and laser or plasma propelled gun might work.
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I'm firmly of the opinion that unless ammo count is a concern, the Coilgun is hands down the best weapon in the game overall. If you make your shots count, you need never look to any other weapon ever again (barring perhaps the grenade launcher for indirect, aoe fire support, and flashbangs). That said, plasma blades are invaluable for close combat as mentioned; they're guaranteed, reliable, TU efficient instant death.
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I'm firmly of the opinion that unless ammo count is a concern, the Coilgun is hands down the best weapon in the game overall. If you make your shots count, you need never look to any other weapon ever again (barring perhaps the grenade launcher for indirect, aoe fire support, and flashbangs). That said, plasma blades are invaluable for close combat as mentioned; they're guaranteed, reliable, TU efficient instant death.
I have to agree with this. The problem is that there are no short-ranged firearms that is equivalent to what the coilgun does at long range. The flamethrower can, yes.....but it isn't *better* at it, and it should be. If nothing else...it's a heck of a lot easier to raise Sniper skill than Close, in my experience.
And yes, I make extensive use of plasma blades. I can afford to: they require no skill whatsoever.
Also, flashbangs ftw.