UFO:Alien Invasion

Development => Artwork => Topic started by: Destructavator on September 04, 2009, 09:05:21 am

Title: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 04, 2009, 09:05:21 am
I really wanted to get that second soldier body model out the door, to go with the new animations and so that others could base things upon it, but I've re-opened the file and found that its still quite messy from being hacked apart and put back together again, as well as having un-needed polys in strange places.

I found it was actually quicker and easier to start over with a body from the newer MakeHuman software.

This model only took an hour, is much simpler, is very clean, and has many less verts and polys, and I think will work better once polished a little in a few places.

Yes, I know this is the third time, but I think it'll work much better.  (They say "third time's the charm...")

Here's what it looks like so far.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 04, 2009, 09:06:49 am
Here's what it looks like scaled (almost but not quite right) with one of the new heads.  I know it looks a bit funny right now, but when I'm done it should look nicer.

P.S. - I decided to go without any armor for this one, so it can work as a base for the others, I think no armor is a better starting point.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 04, 2009, 10:12:22 am
Re-did the scaling, enlarged and worked on the boots and feet.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 04, 2009, 05:41:44 pm
A little more work, made some texture corrections in places where I messed up previously.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 12:09:26 am
I think I finally got the boots and feet about right...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 05, 2009, 02:05:26 am
Just a heads-up, the head's still quite small in comparison to the body.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 02:16:41 am
Just a heads-up, the head's still quite small in comparison to the body.

Regards,
Winter

OK, I'll make some minor adjustments.

How do these new ones look for a vest?  (This would be if no armor was equipped.)

Edit:  In the last one I re-did some scaling, this should be closer to the proper head-body ratio size.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 07:32:41 am
Got a working skeleton for animations!  It just needs a little tweaking with vertex groups, but mostly the skeleton is done for a few basic poses.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 05, 2009, 07:48:33 am
if we could get a rigger to do a quick rigging job, that would be awsome.
If not, then I can take over and stop my slacking
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 07:59:18 am
Glad to see you're still around, Vedrit!

I actually created the skeleton for this one by studying the one you made for the older, second incarnation of the soldier body.

Would you still be up for creating the animations?

I know this doesn't have handles that you mentioned - As an alternative, if you don't like the idea of animating in Blender, I could start some animations, as I'd like to learn anyhow and think it would be fun, and you could watch and comment on how they come out, guiding me and telling me what they would need to look more realistic.  I know Winter would of course still give final approval/disapproval, but I could show them to you first and learn that way.

Otherwise, when I'm finished attaching the skeleton I'll just upload the Blender file and you can get to work on it.  (And I can practice animating other stuff...)

What do you say?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 05, 2009, 08:10:13 am
I encourage learning animation. I think its fun, and not all that hard to do. You just have to understand how the body moves, and how the clothing will impeed movement (Normally, something called Paint Weighting would be used, and that would affect how the clothing moves and bends, etc, but its very complex, far beyond my comprehension)
Handles are only there to aid in animation, but arent necissary. We can split up the list of animations. That way, the list gets taken care of a little bit faster, you learn to animate, and I stop slacking
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 08:16:16 am
Great!  Sounds like a good plan.

I'll upload the Blender file shortly - I just have to fix how the bones attach to the fingers in the hands, the rest pretty much works.

Regarding the model:  Winter hasn't given final approval to this particular model for a soldier, but it could still be animated and other soldier models (all the armor types and such) could be based upon it, and should work with most of the animations - altering the model may just mean re-attaching the skeleton to changed areas.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 08:33:17 am
Actually, I realized you would probably want to re-do the hands of the skeleton anyways, since I did the hands from scratch and probably didn't do it the best way, so here it is:

http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/Soldier_Armor_v3_30.zip

~1.5 MB download, around 4.5 MB uncompressed.

This also contains a lot of textures, the older second soldier model (which is quite messy, please don't use it), all the camo textures, and one head.

The head will eventually be replaced with an MD2 tag, but for now it is in there to make animating where the heads will be in the game easier.

I almost forgot: The upper and mid torso bones are attached a little funny, I didn't finish those yet.

Last, this model as it is is GPL, with no restrictions on use in other games and such.  (I might actually also use it in one of my own little pet projects.)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 05, 2009, 09:39:49 am
The head proportion looks better now. Just one more thing niggles at me now -- the neck looks very thin for that size head, and it doesn't have quite the right shape.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Bartleby on September 05, 2009, 10:42:53 am
this is looking better and better. even though i am not able to help i would like to know if its possible to change the width of the model without the need of an animationchange? that way it would be possible to have different builded bodies (hm.. as a feature the strength of the soldier is seen ^^). just dreaming :P.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 02:49:22 pm
The head proportion looks better now. Just one more thing niggles at me now -- the neck looks very thin for that size head, and it doesn't have quite the right shape.

Regards,
Winter

OK, this should be easy to fix, the neck right now is actually one of the least complex parts of the model and very easy to change.

this is looking better and better. even though i am not able to help i would like to know if its possible to change the width of the model without the need of an animationchange? that way it would be possible to have different builded bodies (hm.. as a feature the strength of the soldier is seen ^^). just dreaming :P.

Yes, it's very easy to scale selected parts of the model on a specific axis to make it look stockier or more slender, and the skeleton can easily be scaled with it, so no additional animation work would be needed.  This would only take a few quick minutes, and is actually something I thought of before in the past, so the soldiers don't look like clones from the neck down.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 05, 2009, 07:00:45 pm
The bone connections, or lack thereof, at the hips is whats concerning me most about the skeleton. How it is now, the bones in the hip will move in relation to the entire scene, rather than to the bone that it stems from. Did you start making the skeleton from the waist up?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 07:24:11 pm
Yes, it was made from the waist up.  Thanks for pointing this out, I missed this issue.

I actually found a "connect" button for the hip bones that almost fixes this - only the program wants to connect the hips to the top of the torso bone instead of the bottom when I press it.

Edit:  I did a quick test, I found that extruding from the other end of the first initial armature bone doesn't work - it won't connect on that end of just that first bone.  Funny how Blender is designed to do that - I had no idea the developers of Blender would do something like that.

Do you want me to try to re-build a new skeleton?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 05, 2009, 07:41:04 pm
@Winter:  I did some work on the neck, how does this look?  (The posture will of course change when the animations are done.)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 05, 2009, 09:20:51 pm
add more muscles to the arms and legs please.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 05, 2009, 11:32:37 pm
I find that working from either the neck  down (Preffered) or the feet up works best
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: MXcom on September 06, 2009, 01:54:18 pm
add more muscles to the arms and legs please.

Is the model shared between male and female actors? I wouldn't add too much then. Or consider seperating it.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 06, 2009, 04:03:16 pm
Is the model shared between male and female actors? I wouldn't add too much then. Or consider seperating it.

No, this is just the male version - I'm just working on them one at a time, with the goal of finishing one completely before starting the other.  If I were to do both at the same time, it would be slower because when changing features I'd have to go back and re-do parts of two models instead of one, and it would take more time and work.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 07, 2009, 08:26:35 am
Yeah, the neck is better like that. Maybe increasing the side of the head a tiny bit would be good as well, at least the width. There's something still ever so slightly off about the proportions, although nothing so bad that we couldn't use it as it is.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Imposeren on September 07, 2009, 12:03:10 pm
There's something still ever so slightly off about the proportions, although nothing so bad that we couldn't use it as it is.

I think that hands are little bit short
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 08, 2009, 03:57:55 pm
hands should not be modelled in high detail anyway - currently we don't even have fingers. and as we don't have bones it wouldn't make sense to add to much detail there.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 09, 2009, 02:18:42 am
Like I said before, if the game will support individual fingers, they can be made
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 09, 2009, 02:54:10 am
I remember the previous discussion about the fingers - IIRC they were decided to be OK for cinematic cut-scenes and movie clips (high-detail), but the models for in-game battlescape missions during gameplay (lower detail) would *not* have fingers, just "mittens."  Did I remember correctly?

Anyways, It'll be a few days before my computer is fixed - the one I have the models on anyways (details posted elsewhere in the forum).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 09, 2009, 09:19:26 am
I remember the previous discussion about the fingers - IIRC they were decided to be OK for cinematic cut-scenes and movie clips (high-detail), but the models for in-game battlescape missions during gameplay (lower detail) would *not* have fingers, just "mittens."  Did I remember correctly?

yes - that correct
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 12, 2009, 04:21:35 am
OK, I heavily re-did much of the model, keeping in mind all of the suggestions here - The scale of everything is driving me crazy, I beefed up parts of the limbs to look more muscular, and kept trying to adjust all the scaled parts here and there, not to mention also to match the head.

I've been re-scaling and adjusting the thing for so long that now its hard to tell what would look right.

On a positive note, I was able to glue the fingers together for this version, I'll save the high-detailed version for video clips for later.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 12, 2009, 07:37:18 am
Very nice work on the head, and good thinking on the fingers. But, when its all said and done, The hair looks like theres a tower growing out of his head.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 12, 2009, 08:13:26 am
Very nice work on the head, and good thinking on the fingers. But, when its all said and done, The hair looks like theres a tower growing out of his head.

Yeah, the Flat Top haircut did come out a little funny (strange).  The funny (Ha-Ha) part is that I used to style my own hair in real life like shown in the pictures, I'd cut a Flat Top and let it grow upwards *long* like that.  I don't do that any more though.  (The secret to that is using un-flavored gelatin mix, mixing it very thick with less water than you normally would if you were to eat it, and keeping it in the refrigerator.  It works much better than commercial gels and hair spray and also doesn't have those nasty chemicals.)  Or, if you want hair like that you could stick your finger in an electrical wall socket...   ;D

Anyways, I don't think it looks that bad, and players won't see the model up close very often in the game anyways.  At the very least I don't think it looks worse than some of the old heads in the game...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: bayo on September 12, 2009, 03:30:49 pm
Yeaa it is very nice; the hair cut is a little strange, but with the body it look cool.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 13, 2009, 01:02:51 am
Please also keep in mind that I've re-made this body a number of times - By comparison that soldier head is still my first completed one.  The next time I make a soldier head it should hopefully come out better.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 13, 2009, 06:46:09 am
The secret to that is using un-flavored gelatin mix, mixing it very thick with less water than you normally would if you were to eat it, and keeping it in the refrigerator.

So....you made augar? You know, that stuff that they grow bacteria on?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 13, 2009, 07:00:47 am
So....you made augar? You know, that stuff that they grow bacteria on?

Huh?  No idea what you're talking about, unless "augar" is a typo for something else - When I say "unflavored gelatin mix" I'm basically talking about un-flavored Jello, the food served cold as a dessert, except purchasing it without any flavor or color added to it.  Here in America where I am it can be found in a common grocery store, typically near cake and brownie mix and other cooking ingredients (such as sugar, flour, corn meal, vegetable oil, muffin mix, etc.).  I don't really know where you're from - I apologize for putting you on the spot - but I'm guessing you're from somewhere where you think I'm talking about something very different.

P.S. - I Googled "augar" and didn't get any results anything like what you were talking about, although my results from Google are custom-tailored for Americans because I'm accessing their site from the United States.

P.P.S. - I also searched Yahoo and the Wikipedia, I only found an agricultural drill-like tool and A number of famous people whose last name is "Augar."
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: bayo on September 13, 2009, 10:32:47 am
maybe he type 'a' instead of 's'
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 13, 2009, 02:50:35 pm
maybe he type 'a' instead of 's'

If you mean "sugar" then that would also be different than gelatin, although in the flavored and colored mixes, like most Jello, sugar is typically mixed with the gelatin in the mix.  Un-flavored gelatin I don't think typically has any sugar in it.  Therefore I'm still confused here...   ???
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 14, 2009, 03:24:20 am
my bad. Its agar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar_plate), you can understand my mix-up.
I did a science project that required the use of agar, and we used Knox, which is a brand of unflavored geletin, and yes, there is sugar in agar. What else is the bacteria going to eat?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 14, 2009, 04:38:55 am
Ah!  That solves that little mystery, thank you...   :D

As far as hair styling, gelatin is actually common among people with punk-style haircuts all the way to mohawks, it works better than regular hair gel or spray if its done right, and as I said it doesn't have all those chemicals that can build up and cause hair loss down the road.  All one has to do after mixing it is take it out of the refrigerator and apply it, using a hair dryer on a low setting to make it stick once the hair is shaped in whatever wild style is desired.  (At some point, now or later someone is going to stumble across this thread post on the net and have to try it out just for kicks...)   ;D

Anyways, in the interest of steering back on topic, do you have any other comments for improving the soldier's body model before I add little details and another skeleton?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: bayo on September 14, 2009, 10:35:34 am
Then, can we redone the head with regular hair gel?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 16, 2009, 09:31:53 am
I discovered I messed up the hands in the last one when I glued the fingers together, I fixed this issue in this version.

Also, I figured out how to add the Phalanx badge/patch without too much hassle.

If this looks OK, I can add a skeleton, vedrit and I can work on animating it, and this could be the body version if the player doesn't equip any armor (either because they forgot to add armor, or some other reason).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 17, 2009, 03:19:57 am
Well, I put together a skeleton for this model, and screwed up - on the other hand, I learned quite a bit about how Blender does skeletons and got much closer to a working one.

One little irritating thing about Skeletons in Blender is how it only lets you rotate one end of each bone, and it isn't always the end you would want.  I also found that if I put the first bone in the head and worked down, then if I wanted to rotate the head the program would instead rotate the whole rest of the body and keep the head stationary, the opposite of what I wanted.

I have to build another skeleton anyways, what I might do is place a "base" bone in the torso that isn't connected to anything, so that all the other bones are child bones of that base bone.  I think that would make the animations much easier, if everything rotated out from the center torso area.

Of course adding such a base bone shouldn't affect the end-resulting MD2, since as far as I know the export doesn't include the bones with the MD2 anyways, just the vertexes that the bones moved, and the bones are only used within Blender for assisting in moving and positioning vertexes.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 17, 2009, 05:25:45 pm
By the way, why you can't use old animation? Just asking...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 17, 2009, 06:59:24 pm
By the way, why you can't use old animation? Just asking...

Several reasons:

- The existing animations for the older (current) soldier models don't include new things we would like them to do down the road in the game's development, such as lying prone, crawling, climbing ladders, etc.

- We don't really have complete source files in the data_source folder for loading the original meshes for those soldier models, before they were exported to MD2 format.

- Vedrit and I both tried to import the MD2s of the old soldier models and attach a new skeleton for new animations - It didn't work, and we concluded that new replacement models would be needed.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 17, 2009, 09:24:17 pm
- We don't really have complete source files in the data_source folder for loading the original meshes for those soldier models, before they were exported to MD2 format.

that is not true ;)

we have the source, we have the bip and figure files for 3dsmax - and it would be easy for someone familiar with 3dsmax to add new animations and apply them to the max source files to reexport them into the md2 format. the problem is that we don't have someone who is familiar with 3dsmax

switching to blender is the best step here, as it is free source, too. so we are trying to get our hands on a mesh + animation in blender.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 18, 2009, 12:20:29 am
that is not true ;)

we have the source, we have the bip and figure files for 3dsmax - and it would be easy for someone familiar with 3dsmax to add new animations and apply them to the max source files to reexport them into the md2 format. the problem is that we don't have someone who is familiar with 3dsmax

switching to blender is the best step here, as it is free source, too. so we are trying to get our hands on a mesh + animation in blender.


Whoops!  I remembered incorrectly, thanks for clearing that up!

@Winter:  If you happen to be reading this thread (and I'm hoping you are), how does the body model's shape look?  If the shape is OK, then we can move onward to getting a good skin texture for the model.  I asked Migel for help with the skin, since myself I have a lot of trouble with making good skins, and Migel seems much more capable in this area than I am - But before the skin is really worked on, the shape needs to be finished.  Again, this specific shape is for a soldier with no armor at all, the armored versions are coming up soon.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 18, 2009, 03:24:50 am
I've been reading the thread, mate, and I have no complaints about the model. It's fine as far as I can see. We'll still need a female version though!

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 18, 2009, 04:41:02 am
I've been reading the thread, mate, and I have no complaints about the model. It's fine as far as I can see. We'll still need a female version though!

Regards,
Winter

OK, I'll export and send this model to Migel as soon as I have a chance sometime tomorrow, and while he's working on texture skins for it I'll start working on building a female mesh as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 18, 2009, 01:47:54 pm
By the way, Destructavator - if you making a new animation you have to make a tags or you can just waste your time. And it is time to think what it will be - separate helmet or IR goggles will need a new tags...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 19, 2009, 06:27:14 am
I could start on the animations while Migel is texturing.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 19, 2009, 08:45:14 am
helmet and irgoggles needs a separate head - no tags please. we've discussed this earlier already, the goggles wouldn't fit every head out there. it would look bad. the same is true for the helmets imo. it would also be a waste of vertices to render all those hidden head details.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 19, 2009, 08:46:05 am
oh - and i think there was a tag exporter script for blender in our repository - not sure whether it works though.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 21, 2009, 07:07:32 am
I think I was misunderstood about the "seperate helmet" idea, Mattn is right except that what I was suggesting is a different concept - Allow me to clarify:

As helmets get more advanced and protective, they cover more of the head and especially more of the face, until the point where the whole head and face is covered.  When they get to this point, the soldier heads all look the same with that type of armor because the helmet covers everything and from the outside it isn't possible to recognize the soldiers or distinguish between them.

The aircraft pilots are already an example of this, with their helmets.

The Fix, which would also work for the pilots as well:

In the pre-mission equipping screens only the character, meaning a soldier, pilot, whatever, would not be wearing the helmet and hold it in one of their hands, so the player can see the entire un-covered head and face and easily still identify a somewhat unique look for that character.  This means the pilots could also have randomly selected unique faces just like soldiers.

During missions on the battlescape, there would only be *one* mesh which is exactly the same as how it works right now for the older models, the helmet and head model combined as one head model.  If the player zooms in or re-equips inventory in the middle of a combat mission, they would see this one, single head model - which again is exactly the way it already works for the old head models.  It would appear to the player that between the time they equipped the soldier before the mission and when the mission began the character apparently had put on the helmet, but the game program just replaces the un-armored head with the version wearing the helmet, just like how it already works now, one single model.

I never meant to suggest that there would be two models for the head during missions, one covering up most of the other, because yes, that would be a waste of graphics resources for the game, as well as being a sloppy design with the models even if it appeared to work.

This means that for the fix I'm suggesting the "helmet-only" model that the soldier holds in their hands before missions in the equip screen would not be used at all during missions.

As for making the soldier hold the helmet, its only a matter of attaching the un-worn helmet to the off-hand with a TAG, which the body that has the hand already should have anyways (for holding items in the off-hand).

Edit:  Attached is a quick-and-dirty depiction of how this fix would work for a pilot, just in the pre-mission equip screen only.  During a mission, if a pilot was in a ground battle for a special mission or something, that head in this screen shot would not be rendered or there at all, and the helmet model would not be in the hand but instead on the body's neck.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on September 21, 2009, 07:47:34 pm
I like the idea.
I never really understood why I cant use the pilot in a mission. Pilots always have atleast a pistol, incase they get shot down, so I could atleast use the pilot for a supporting role, such as a medic.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 22, 2009, 06:23:38 pm
Just to show - I add fabric-like texture and draw simple belt... Actually I ask Destructavator to upload model without PHALANX signs, so maybe I'll start over this work. I also have an idea to discuss - I want to add some dummy weapon to the model, like gun in the holster on the leg or knife on the belt.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 22, 2009, 07:00:19 pm
I want to add some dummy weapon to the model, like gun in the holster on the leg or knife on the belt.

that could confuse the player imo.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 22, 2009, 07:32:38 pm
I'm afraid I have to agree with Mattn about a dummy weapon - if one was in the model I think we would eventually get people coming to the forum and IRC channel over and over with questions such as "I ran out of ammo, why can't I use the (whatever) that it looks like my soldier has..." or "How do I equip the (whatever) that it looks like all the soldiers carry?" and so on...

I personally like the texture - Winter of course makes the final decisions, but as someone who worked for and has seen real S.W.A.T. people in a past job I can say that I like the fact that the material in these screenshots isn't as bright or high-contrast as the more lousy texture I had come up with.  After all, part of the idea behind camo and such is to *not* stand out with something overly flashy, but to intentionally blend in more and not be as noticeable.  As a small point, on my screen the belt looks a little bit greenish (Edit: The screen shot looks more brownish on another one of my computers, different display), by comparison a SWAT guy would use a dull black, but then again these characters - correct me if I'm wrong - are supposed to be more "military," as opposed to "law enforcement," aren't they?  Of course, the setting is also 80-some years in the future, so I have no idea what type of material would be used by then.

Thanks for mentioning a belt buckle, I forgot to put it in the model myself!

Yes, I can re-build the UV map for the texture, without the logo patches being seperate - I'll get to work and upload it as soon as possible.

I have a feeling that when this is finally done, it'll look really good, I think it has potential.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 22, 2009, 10:46:45 pm
The texture is okay, but the PHALANX patch stands out in a bad way. It needs more work to make it look like it belongs on the uniform rather than just being a badly copy-pasted slab. Also, I think you should keep the patch in the original gold colour.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 23, 2009, 12:26:48 am
The texture is okay, but the PHALANX patch stands out in a bad way. It needs more work to make it look like it belongs on the uniform rather than just being a badly copy-pasted slab. Also, I think you should keep the patch in the original gold colour.

Regards,
Winter

Actually Migel and I did discuss the patch in the texture - If I understand correctly, I believe Migel intends to re-do the patch anyways after I fix a technical issue with the UV-map texture seams, and once he's done I think it would look better.  (Sorry I forgot to mention that, my fault.)

Regarding the color, do you think they should all be gold, or just the ranking officers with all the "grunts" having silver or a different color, kind of like how it is with police and other non-civilians in real life?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 23, 2009, 01:42:11 am
They should all be gold. It's not really practical to alter the patch on the model itself, rank insignia will only be displayed as an independent emblem on the soldier's portrait/paper doll.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 25, 2009, 07:36:10 pm
Some more screenshot - I make an Y shoulder belt with copper buckles. Don't know if you like it, but I think it is better that way.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 25, 2009, 09:41:10 pm
the more skins - the better ;) keep in mind that we can even declare skins per campaign - so if winter doesn't like it for reason i would like to see such stuff in the game.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 26, 2009, 06:08:55 am
Looks good Migel, I'm glad you agreed to help out with the textures.

Sorry I was out for so long, normally I check in to the forum here several times a day, or at least once - I've just been much busier than usual lately and my birthday also just came around again.

Regarding the message you sent me, yes, you're welcome to change where the texture seams are, and yes, with Blender I can always re-import from MD2 for the animations, as well as import OBJ, DirectX, COLLADA, and many others (most of the common ones).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 27, 2009, 11:17:13 am
I was thinking how to make this model a bit better and decide to make a buckle and a radio on the back (there will be hands-free microphone on neck collar and a cord to this radio). The texture of course will be different - I'm still not finished this skin even on half of what I want... But I think it's up to Winter to accept this changes or not.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 27, 2009, 02:46:30 pm
Radios, over time get smaller, lighter, and easier to carry with modern technology, and in the game setting (~80 years from now in the future) I'd imagine they would be smaller than that, although it depends on how far the range is supposed to be and what type they are.

From when I worked briefly in the law enforcement area, I know that in present day real life we have had for some time now (at least 10 years or so) SWAT radios that are rather small and have a cord that goes to a small thing attached to an officer's neck.  The radio actually picks up sound directly from a person's throat, allowing them to talk on the radio with barely a whisper, sub-vocally, and also includes an in-ear earpiece.  I forget where the "talk" switch is located, I think it can be placed on the chest somewhere or other places, just a tiny button.  I wish I had a picture handy, we've had these things since back in the 1990's.

These are very different from the standard patrol radios that are on a belt or something and sometimes have a cord that goes to a mic on the shoulder for someone to use to talk.

Of course range is also something to consider - If smaller radios are used, they would rely on some type of extender unit in the dropship to talk to headquarters.  Even smaller radios today can go for miles, although they would not be anywhere near capable of transmitting all the way back to the home base on their own without more gear in the dropship.

If the soldiers are to carry some type of military radio that can transmit all the way back to base all by themselves (if the dropship goes "boom" for any reason), I don't know much about those types or what they would be like in 80 some years into the future.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Different sub-topic:  On the "Y" shaped part of the clothing, could you add some pockets, pouches, perhaps a holster somewhere, so it looks more like an equipment vest?  Places where grenades could go might also be nice.

...And yes, if it is for the official campaign, Winter does have the final say.  If by chance he has to reject something, please don't throw it away though.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: geever on September 27, 2009, 03:27:56 pm
I think the radio on the back has the same problem as pistols. Users could ask: "How can use the radio on my soldiers back? Can I ask for reinforcements on it?" and so..

-geever
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Kildor on September 27, 2009, 04:16:38 pm
User can use the radio to command to the soldiers, and soldiers are able to exchange about aliens positions and so on.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 27, 2009, 04:41:44 pm
I'm behind Kildor on this one - I'd think that radios would be standard equipment, something all units should have to coordinate with each other.

However, the back is a poor place for it - It would make sense to have it on the belt or chest on a vest, so it could be easily reached to change channels, adjust volume, etc.

I don't know about military radios, but police radios commonly also have extra functions which can be controlled only if an officer's hands can reach it (which doesn't work on the back) - As an example, some police radios have a "man down" emergency button.  Adjustments could also be necessary if there is interference from other equipment, or if the signal is weak because of the environment (thick walls, some types of terrain, etc.).

Edit:  Found a few old circa 1990s pictures, notice the earpiece, the microphone on the band around the neck (He can talk in a whisper and be heard clearly on the radio) and the talk switch on the chest attached to his vest and gear.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 27, 2009, 05:26:56 pm
No visible chunky radio, please -- it's just not appropriate for the setting when you can buy a bluetooth headset over the counter today at a fraction of the size.

Other than that the uniform is okay, although I should stipulate that green should be reserved for forest camo. The main uniform should be either blue, grey or black for urban engagements (or a combination; either way you don't see SWAT teams wearing coloured camo), and it just makes a more appealing standard colour.

Regards,
Ryan
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 27, 2009, 06:12:49 pm
(Radio) I'll remove the radio, but the reason I add it is because it's actually visible. It can be a previous age technology, but for me 1st priority is to make a model look more interesting. I'm not a big fan of realism in games... It is like that - player don't think that soldier has a bluetooth codec in the ear, he see the big chunky thing (that surely is a radio) on the back and know that soldier have a radio.
(Camo) I always think that the "Forest" and "Urban" is some kind of basic of camouflage. Just then I finish this one I make an urban and it will be different somehow. All other can be clones - just change the texture, leaving all shoulderbelts, pockets and pouches...
(Grenades) Nice places for grenades is that shoulder belt. So good idea - make an addtitonal tag for grenades and pistol maybe - if soldier have one it is showed on model!
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 27, 2009, 09:03:00 pm
And a few words about chevrons. As I know on the left hand it should be soldier side (IRL it's country) - in our case it's a PHALANX. But on the right hand it should be soldier speciality - it's different for soldiers, pilots and scientists (if only they have a uniform somewhere in their lockers  ;) ). So I suggest crossed alien for soldiers and crossed ufo for pilots.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 29, 2009, 09:16:48 am
And that's about radio on the back. And I'm sure that's how the light armour must be look like.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 29, 2009, 10:09:03 am
And that's about radio on the back. And I'm sure that's how the light armour must be look like.

OK, now I see how it works.  I also think that yes, something like that would be very good for light armor, although I think the uniform-only (no armor) version should probably be finished first.

BTW, as soon as you get a good model and texture that Winter is happy with, please attach it to a post or upload it, so that Vedrit and I can get to work on animating it.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 29, 2009, 12:57:23 pm
And a few words about chevrons. As I know on the left hand it should be soldier side (IRL it's country) - in our case it's a PHALANX. But on the right hand it should be soldier speciality - it's different for soldiers, pilots and scientists (if only they have a uniform somewhere in their lockers  ;) ). So I suggest crossed alien for soldiers and crossed ufo for pilots.

That alien-head-with-a-strike-through-it patch looks awful, please return it to the original globe and crossed spears. It's too silly, too Ghostbusters. Alien heads/UFOs don't make for good military badges, and it would require extra code to implement support for what is a graphical detail so tiny as to be pretty much invisible, so please stop adding stuff like this. We just need one generic catch-all uniform for ground soldiers. That's all.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 29, 2009, 05:50:41 pm
Quote
as soon as you get a good model and texture that Winter is happy with, please attach it to a post or upload it, so that Vedrit and I can get to work on animating it
I don't think you need to wait me. In the end I just set texture a bit different and add the buckle and that's all. No radio, no dummy weapons. The last thing is pouches and holster you ask, but you see - big objects must be modeled and small can be drawn. If you want something like pouches and holster it must be modeled (like the one on the belt and legs), or eye will see the fake in any angle, different from 90. I can make them if you want, but I think there is enough of that stuff already. I just draw a few more pockets.
About texture set - you can't use your old skins anymore. What I did is set all parts more separately - it's easier to draw like this.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 29, 2009, 11:50:29 pm
I probably should have been more clear about this before, but there is still something about that brown "Y" shaped part that bothers me - As it is right now it looks rather...historical, making the whole thing look more like something archaic from one of the world wars of the mid-20th Century.  It strikes me as looking the opposite of something that I think would work better, something sleek and futuristic of the future setting of the game that would be high-tech.  I think the color especially adds to the problem, the brown with copper buckles.  Again, if it was different, something for equipment and was black with either chrome or black metal buckles/snaps, or perhaps something with some shade of grey, it would look much better IMO.  As it is right now I just see suspenders that make it look like something that isn't even contemporary of present day, it doesn't look like a modern, clean-cut uniform of an elite soldier with the best Earth-based technology available.

I do, however, also think you're right about the fact that for it to be for equipment it should be modeled differently instead of painted on.

If we're going to replace the soldier models we need to have something well-done and futuristic, high-tech - but not fantasy-ish, and something that we would be comfortable with in the game for quite some time.

Here's what I'm going to do:  I'm going to try working with the model again, and come up with at least one other version of the mesh that might work better, I've already got some ideas of how to go about it - in particular with the equipment vest.  We may have to try this several times and then pick out the one that came out the best.  I'm not trying to be an extreme perfectionist, but I'd like for there to be a new soldier model that really fits well with a good amount of time and thought put into it.

Winter of course is welcome to disagree with me, but these are my thoughts so far.

Please don't throw anything out though, anything we don't use for the standard soldiers we could likely always use for something else.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 30, 2009, 12:45:48 am
Winter of course is welcome to disagree with me, but these are my thoughts so far.

Please don't throw anything out though, anything we don't use for the standard soldiers we could likely always use for something else.

I think you're right on the money, actually. The brown strap makes it look antiquated. Modern SWAT teams don't wear much besides black/blue plastic, and that's the kind of look the PHALANX uniform should be reminiscent of.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 30, 2009, 01:09:48 am
Well, going back to the mesh shape this is what I was able to do quick-and-dirty, It isn't finished and needs a lot of adjustments, plus I only did the front so far, but this is close to what I was recommending.  If I clean this up and finish it, I think this might work better, once a detailed texture is applied.

Perhaps some "D" rings could also be put in between the equipment "boxes" on this one...  I'm still working on it...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 30, 2009, 03:41:54 am
Still not finished, but a little more work...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 30, 2009, 04:38:29 am
Careful you don't make it too monotonous/monochrome, mate. The uniform should never be boring.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 30, 2009, 06:48:32 am
Careful you don't make it too monotonous/monochrome, mate. The uniform should never be boring.

it's just a sample - Migel is doing the texture, no?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 30, 2009, 02:38:21 pm
it's just a sample - Migel is doing the texture, no?

Yes, that is correct - I need to make a few more adjustments to (this version of) the mesh, and then I'll upload it for Migel to build a texture with all the little details and such.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 30, 2009, 03:50:38 pm
Quote
As it is right now it looks rather...historical, making the whole thing look more like something archaic from one of the world wars
Well, I think I should tell the truth - I want it to look that way from the beginning. It's not just brown Y belt (which is real WW2 equipment) and copper and sweater and buttons instead of zippers - the uniform itself is old style. I agree with all you said, but I was thinking it will looks cool. And that is why I wanted to make the "urban" one whole different - it would be modern style. One in the old style and one in the new style -  isn't it better than just full set of clone skins with different camo texture?
PS - So, need I finish this one or not?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on September 30, 2009, 04:21:14 pm
So, need I finish this one or not?

Yes - as i've said - even if Winter and BTAxis don't want it for the campaign, i want skins for multiplayer and skirmish... please finish the work in every case.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on September 30, 2009, 05:11:13 pm
Quote
Quote
So, need I finish this one or not?
Yes - as i've said
I really get tangled...  Destructavator is changing the model right now - this skin may not fit the new model. So let's do it like this - I'll wait until Destructavator make his work and only then finish this skin (and make new one so everyone will be happy :D)

2Destructavator - I have a few wishes =) Whatever you make, please leave some spase between model parts in the skin. And one more thing - I'm waste a hell of a lot time to make texture joints less visible, but when you assign material in blender he solve this problem itself. So maybe I'll just use your skins as base or (and) upload few camo patterns I want to see on this model?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on September 30, 2009, 06:14:38 pm
Yes - as i've said - even if Winter and BTAxis don't want it for the campaign, i want skins for multiplayer and skirmish... please finish the work in every case.

Seconded. It'd be useful for non-PHALANX soldiers with a few adaptations.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on September 30, 2009, 08:26:55 pm
Yes - as i've said
I really get tangled...  Destructavator is changing the model right now - this skin may not fit the new model. So let's do it like this - I'll wait until Destructavator make his work and only then finish this skin (and make new one so everyone will be happy :D)

2Destructavator - I have a few wishes =) Whatever you make, please leave some spase between model parts in the skin. And one more thing - I'm waste a hell of a lot time to make texture joints less visible, but when you assign material in blender he solve this problem itself. So maybe I'll just use your skins as base or (and) upload few camo patterns I want to see on this model?

Yes, if you have camo patterns that already loop in 2D, I can easily apply them in Blender so they don't have seams, Blender does this very easily.  You can upload them, attach them to a post, whatever.

Yes, when I finish the latest version of the model I will redo the texture seams and UV map, and have more space between areas, so it will be easier to work with.  I admit the older version was UV mapped a bit poorly, I apologize for that.

...And yes, If I create a better UV texture map with the camo already there (applied without the texture joint seams visible), then yes, you're welcome to paint over the rest with details and such, I think that's a good idea.

Also, sorry for the confusion I may have caused...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 01, 2009, 01:02:04 am
http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/soldier_v5_9.7z

OK, here is the Blender source file, along with two TGA graphic files, one with the UV texture as I created it, and the other is an outline-map of where the UVs are.

This UV map was created mostly manually, I hope it came out organized better than the old model.

@Migel: If you want, you're welcome to change the UV map of where parts of the texture are, I can always re-import the model.

If you have a copy of Blender you can export it to almost any common format, or if you want a specific format again tell me which one and I can do it for you.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 01, 2009, 01:09:36 pm
Thanks for that fix, Destructavator. The model now looks much better. But there is a few more things to do...
1 - how about a buckle?
2 - UV map is fine, but can you please make the hands in one part (like the previous version), not in two.
3 - can you upload some more skins with different camouflage...

I can do this changes by myself, but it only make chaos then I make one thing while you make some other thing.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 01, 2009, 02:59:24 pm
Thanks for that fix, Destructavator. The model now looks much better. But there is a few more things to do...
1 - how about a buckle?
2 - UV map is fine, but can you please make the hands in one part (like the previous version), not in two.
3 - can you upload some more skins with different camouflage...

I can do this changes by myself, but it only make chaos then I make one thing while you make some other thing.

1 - Yes, once again I forgot about this, thanks for reminding me!

2 - Sure, no problem.

3 - Yes, I have upwards of 30 to 40 or so different camo patterns actually.  How many can you handle?  I could also re-arrange the UV map so that all the camo parts are together in one area, and that one area could be re-placed swapping camo in and out, so that you only have to work on just one texture and not have to do the same work over and over again many times.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 01, 2009, 03:33:14 pm
Quote
Yes, I have upwards of 30 to 40 or so different camo patterns actually.  How many can you handle?  I could also re-arrange the UV map so that all the camo parts are together in one area, and that one area could be re-placed swapping camo in and out, so that you only have to work on just one texture and not have to do the same work over and over again many times.
OK, let's skip that part for now =) First I need to make at least one. Drawing is about layers - I don't need to do the same work, I need only to change backgrounds once it's done.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on October 01, 2009, 04:34:58 pm
which reminds me - please always deliver the source images (gimp or photoshop or whatever) with all the layers included, too
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 01, 2009, 06:32:10 pm
All right, here is the new Blender file, with an updated model and new UV map:

http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/soldier_6_11.7z

Included are TGA files of the map and a sample texture.  I grouped all the camo parts into one section of the UV map, to make it easier to swap in and out different camo patterns without affecting any nice details you paint on the other parts.

I added the belt buckle and also found I had to re-do the hands, the hands in the old model were actually quite messy.

Attached to this post are preview JPGs so everyone else can see how the UV texture is mapped, but please use the TGAs for working as the Jpegs are lossy.

Also, when you export the model from the Blender file, just use the default scene that comes up, with the grey camo.  The other scenes are other stuff I'm working on.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 02, 2009, 08:10:55 am
I have one more question (must be for Mattn) about texture size - leave 2048x2048 or make 1024x1024? IMO 2048 it too much...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on October 02, 2009, 02:54:03 pm
you can submit them in 2048x2048 if you have it in that size

we would store that in data_source - for the game we would use 1024x1024 or 512x512 (depends on the size of the mesh, too)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 03, 2009, 03:35:35 pm
Well I think it will be something like this...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 03, 2009, 04:17:23 pm
 8)   Nice!

It looks great so far - to me at least,  I can barely wait until you finish it!  (But please don't rush it.)

BTW, Just an idea - Would you be able to put in "D" rings in-between the pouches on the straps, for attaching more gear?

Of course, I tend to be an easy grader - Winter may also have more suggestions.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on October 03, 2009, 09:41:11 pm
Actually, I like it. The zip looks a little bit grainy, but that's the only complaint I can come up with it. Well done, Migel.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 04, 2009, 12:12:49 pm
Thanks! I just afraid that skin will be less detailed after compression, so I made all parts bit bigger than they should be. Now it's 2048, and probably will be 1024.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 05, 2009, 07:05:06 pm
Um, Destructavator, can you please change UV a little. It's about back pouches - there is only a few pixels for them now, so move them separately from the belt to the center of skin and make them bigger. I'm not updating new md2, or it will spoil your animation work (you know - set it to the bones again). Once you do it, please upload new md2 - I don't need source, it's only to test the skin. And I will be sweet if you leave all other parts in their places - skin is half-ready.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 05, 2009, 11:58:16 pm
 :-[

Migel, I owe you an apology.  A big apology...

I'll get back to that in a moment.

I re-opened the UV Map for the un-armored soldier and found that either Blender doesn't have the capability of adding a new seam and splitting a mapped section, or if it does have such a function I can't find it or figure out how to do it, not without re-unwrapping the whole thing and having to manually place all the texture areas by hand all over again.  (I wouldn't want you to have to start over.)

I was, however, able to expand the ends of the belt section so that the pouches in the back were much larger and easier to work with, I'm currently uploading a new zipped package with the changes.

The embarrassing part is that while looking through all the tools, I found some features in Blender to easily map out areas in nice and neat sections, with straight edges instead of crazy distorted angles everywhere.  If I had found this feature earlier it would have made it a hell of a lot easier for you to paint over all the areas and make your job much easier.  I used this feature on the ends of the belt where the pouches are, you can clearly see the difference in the attached screen shot, nice and neat squares, all even and everything.

So, I'm sorry I didn't do this before, making the whole UV map nice and neat like this, it would have meant a lot less work for you.

I'm going to re-do the other model's UV map, the armored one, with these tools, so that by the time you get to the other model with the armor it should be very quick and easy.

Again, I'm sorry I didn't do this before.

Edit:  Here's the modified un-armored one, changed like how you wanted: 
http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/s6_20.zip
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vidarn on October 06, 2009, 09:02:13 am
I re-opened the UV Map for the un-armored soldier and found that either Blender doesn't have the capability of adding a new seam and splitting a mapped section, or if it does have such a function I can't find it or figure out how to do it, not without re-unwrapping the whole thing and having to manually place all the texture areas by hand all over again.  (I wouldn't want you to have to start over.)

Hi!
This is actually possible, by selecting the faces you want to deattach and hitting alt+L.
If you don't mind me asking, that feature to automaticaly lay the parts out with neat borders seems great, I have been looking for something like that as well, could you explain how you did it?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 06, 2009, 10:15:36 am
Hi!
This is actually possible, by selecting the faces you want to deattach and hitting alt+L.

Ah!  Thanks for the tip!  That's one of the things about Blender that I find very impressive - the fact that there's always something new to learn or figure out.

If you don't mind me asking, that feature to automaticaly lay the parts out with neat borders seems great, I have been looking for something like that as well, could you explain how you did it?

Actually after a little digging it seems that such a feature is from a third-party python script I downloaded some time ago.  I'm afraid I don't recall where I got it from, except it came as part of a bundle.  In addition there's also the "snap to pixels" option which also helps.

If I ever remember where I got that script from, I'll let you know - it came with a lot of other great plug-ins as well.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vidarn on October 06, 2009, 04:58:02 pm
That's one of the things about Blender that I find very impressive - the fact that there's always something new to learn or figure out.
Yeah, although sadly I guess that's also one of the things that many people find frustrating about blender, that some settings and features are near impossible to find ;)

If I ever remember where I got that script from, I'll let you know - it came with a lot of other great plug-ins as well.
Appreciate it!

Btw, don't know if you've tried it but a function that I love when unwrapping is the "follow active" unwrap option (u->"Follow active(quads)"). I found out about it not long ago, but it's really helpful when trying to keep the lines straight. Documentation can be found here: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:Py/Scripts/Manual/UV/UV_Calculate/Follow_active_quads
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 06, 2009, 05:41:48 pm
Quote
Here's the modified un-armored one, changed like how you wanted
Thanks Destructavator, that's much better!
Quote
If I had found this feature earlier it would have made it a hell of a lot easier for you
That's for the future. I'm sure it will be come in handy, but now I can make it like this.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 07, 2009, 07:05:10 pm
Just few more screenshots... Feel free to tell me if something need to be changed.
BTW does someone have a PHALANX sign in hi res (more than 100x100)? I want add it to the back and didn't find it in the repo...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 07, 2009, 08:00:39 pm
I think the texture looks fantastic!  If Winter approves I think it will work quite well.

In the "base" of the main trunk SVN somewhere there is a larger graphic, you can try this one (attached).

Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Rogz on October 08, 2009, 07:49:31 am
Just few more screenshots... Feel free to tell me if something need to be changed.
BTW does someone have a PHALANX sign in hi res (more than 100x100)? I want add it to the back and didn't find it in the repo...

This is REALLY impressive work. Both the new model and the texturing. Keep it up and the new version will be a huge leap towards perfection  :D
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 08, 2009, 04:20:02 pm
Thanks everyone. And Destructavator personally for the sign. It's almost done...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on October 08, 2009, 09:37:44 pm
Thanks everyone. And Destructavator personally for the sign. It's almost done...

Hi Migel,

It looks good; my only concern is the huge big logo on the back, I think it's unnecessary with the logo already on the shoulder, and it's just too obvious to be in combat. Other than that niggle, it's excellent work.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 10, 2009, 07:24:03 pm
Well, here it is. (sorry for rapidshare, but skin is too big) http://rapidshare.com/files/291210374/Texture.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/291210374/Texture.zip.html)
I was trying to make a folds on clothes, but not quite happy with result... To tell the truth I'm in the bad mood now, and can't see if I making skin better or only worse... So, Destructavator, you can check the skin itself instead of screenshots, maybe find anything else to fix. I leave the PHALANX sign on the back for this one, but I'll remove it in the low-res version as Winter wants... I think big-res is good for making video and low-res will be directly for game.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 10, 2009, 08:27:48 pm
Now this looks *amazing* - and I really mean that, this really is beautiful work and I'm glad you agreed to do it.

Logo or not on the back, I think this will work rather well.

Eventually we'll also need a female version - although you can take a break for a bit because the female model mesh isn't done yet, so it'll be a while before it can be textured.

One question: Do you have the source files in layers, so that your work can be put on top of other camouflage colors?  If not, it's not a big deal really, I or someone else could always put the texture through GIMP and colorize parts of the skin, but it wouldn't look quite as pretty.

Thanks again.

(Pics are attached for everyone else to see.)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 10, 2009, 08:55:43 pm
Thanks!
Quote
Do you have the source files in layers
Of course, I just fix these folds on clothes and upload it all...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on October 11, 2009, 10:28:31 am
Ha, I just realised something -- Migel, would it be possible to put a zip on the front of the trousers? It looks just a little bit off without any method of . . . access.

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 11, 2009, 02:43:51 pm
Quote
would it be possible to put a zip on the front of the trousers?
Will do. I just forget about it ::)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 11, 2009, 04:50:49 pm
Just FYI, I slightly messed up with the skeleton on this model, I just fixed it and now it is almost animation-ready.  I put the knees in the wrong place - Migel got it right with the texture - I didn't, but I've adjusted it and slightly changed a few vertex groups, now it works, and it looks OK to me in any (normal, human) pose.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 11, 2009, 04:59:04 pm
Quote
would it be possible to put a zip on the front of the trousers?
Here. Now it looks like one-piece suit.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on October 11, 2009, 06:04:14 pm
can you add a little more mass to the thigh? a soldier should have at least some muscles imo ;)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 11, 2009, 07:58:46 pm
can you add a little more mass to the thigh? a soldier should have at least some muscles imo ;)

Maybe.  Blender does have texture deform capability, I'd have to take a closer look at it to see how it works.  Normally - as far as I know - the shape is finalized first, before texturing starts, and altering the base shape can be a bad idea after the texture is done and in some cases means re-doing the texture later, but for a minor tweak to fatten the thighs just a little I think it can be done (so Migel would not have to start all over with a new texture for a new shape).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Winter on October 12, 2009, 12:06:31 am
Here. Now it looks like one-piece suit.

I meant more adding a separate crotch zip for the trousers. One-piece suits tend to be impractical and difficult to get into. Would that be possible?

Regards,
Winter
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on October 12, 2009, 01:06:55 pm
Maybe.  Blender does have texture deform capability, I'd have to take a closer look at it to see how it works.  Normally - as far as I know - the shape is finalized first, before texturing starts, and altering the base shape can be a bad idea after the texture is done and in some cases means re-doing the texture later, but for a minor tweak to fatten the thighs just a little I think it can be done (so Migel would not have to start all over with a new texture for a new shape).

the texture coords should not change if you only move the vertices a little bit. adding new ones might break it - yes.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Migel on October 14, 2009, 09:52:38 am
Well, that's it. (Rapidshare once again) http://rapidshare.com/files/292793449/New.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/292793449/New.zip.html)
Separate zip, more muscles and PSD. Only problem is that making new camo will take more than just change of background layer... Folds and muscles drawn right on camo (meaning it will take more time than ctrl-c/ctrl-v).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: misiek on October 14, 2009, 06:14:35 pm
It looks great, when we will see it in game? ;)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 14, 2009, 06:17:36 pm
Looks good, Migel.  I'm going to play with it in GIMP with colorization options on selected layers to try to make alternate camo colors.

It looks great, when we will see it in game? ;)

Well, for one thing we at least need a female version, something I'll get ready as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 14, 2009, 07:56:41 pm
...Only problem is that making new camo will take more than just change of background layer... Folds and muscles drawn right on camo (meaning it will take more time than ctrl-c/ctrl-v).

I figured it out!

Thankfully you left the original Blender-created image inside the .PSD as a non-visible layer, and I've found that by combining that old image with the layer that has the folds and specular highlights on the camo, I was able to blend them in a special way that just gave me the difference between the two, in other words, just the fabric folds and the highlights and such all by themselves against an alpha background.

I then found I can apply this newly created layer to new Blender-generated textures with different camo colors, and make it very easy to make different versions of the completed texture with different camouflage while preserving all the details and all of your hard work.

I just need to tweak some stuff, but when I'm done I'll upload some new files, and making new camo patterns with the completed texture should be easy (as long as anyone who wants to add camo patterns grabs both the PSD and the .Blend file together).

Thanks again, Migel.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 15, 2009, 04:39:49 am
I'm done (at least for now) re-working the skeleton, so if vedrit is prepared to start animating, here's the updated .blend file:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/Soldier_Armor_v6_31.zip

I'm still working on putting more camo colors in Migel's texture for alternate skins, but that shouldn't affect the animation process, more skins can always be applied after/during animation.

For backup, could someone please put this file in the data source with a note that it is in a pre-animation but animation-ready state?

Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on October 15, 2009, 09:57:56 pm
Sweet. I'll get on that. Just to make sure, every animation cycle has to start with the default pose?
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 15, 2009, 10:33:04 pm
Sweet. I'll get on that. Just to make sure, every animation cycle has to start with the default pose?

If I remember right, every animation intended to loop should start and end with the same pose, other "play-once" animations obviously start in one pose and end in another (such as standing up from crouching, for example).

A few notes regarding animations with Blender, using the skeleton (forgive me for the parts you already know):

- The blender file I provided is set to 30 FPS.  Blender uses a keyframe system and fills in the in-between frames automatically, and the game engine IIRC goes even further by automatically animating the mesh smoothly between frames.  If memory serves, with the MD2 format you can have different animations at different speeds in the same file, the text file that goes with the MD2 - also read by the game - lists in an index the starting, stopping, and animation speeds of each animation the game's code calls, along with names for the animations (I think the wiki has an example).

- The file I provided also has a snap-to with the grid and rotation of everything, I think rotation snaps to increments of 5 degrees.  You can override this when dragging by holding down CTRL while dragging.

- You can specify rotating a specific axis only by left-clicking an axis arrow-head in pose mode.  You can also use the keyboard, press "R" for rotate then the letter of the axis, X, Y, or Z.  You can then type the number of degrees you want to rotate, and use a minus sign or decimal point if needed.

- I'd recommend selecting the axis with the keyboard so you can choose between rotating on a *global* or *local* axis.  When you first press "R" and then the key for the axis, it defaults to global rotation, pressing the key for the axis a second time switches to local axis of rotation, which is cool because it then rotates related to how the parent bone is, giving you more control and making proper rotation much easier.

- I've found in quick tests that if you plan to twist a limb and hand/foot, it helps to split up the rotation among the different bones (part of the rotation in the shoulder/hip, part in the mid-joint, part in the end, for example).  I've also found this works better for the head and neck as well.

- Before final export the head will be replaced by an empty to become a TAG, and TAGs will also be placed in the hands, don't worry about that for now, you should be able to animate without them for now.  (The TAGs tell the game where to add the head and carried in-hand objects/weapons.)

- If you accidentally add a keyframe in the wrong place with "I" you can delete it with "CTRL-I" if I remember right.  There are also buttons in the upper bar right below the model view for copying, pasting, and mirroring poses, which helps sometimes.

- You can also tweak things in the Action Editor panel for each bone if you know how (If not, don't worry about it).

- Pressing "W" then "clear user transform" will reset all the bones.

- Remember that individual bones can have independent keyframes, you can set them for the whole mesh by selecting all the bones at once and then adding a keyframe.

- The arrow keys navigate between keyframes.  Changing frames resets the bones to the last pose, so after making one keyframe, *first* advance to a new keyframe and *then* work on a new pose, otherwise you can lose all your changes for the next pose (I've suffered this mistake myself...   :P  ).

Have fun!

Edit: If I'm wrong on any of these points, anyone is free to correct me.

Edit(2): If the skeleton needs work or should be re-done, please let me know...


Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on October 16, 2009, 07:03:36 am
Im going to add to your list, though I believe that deleting key frames is alt + i, though my fingers know it better than my mind, heh.
For cycle animations, such as walking, the IPO Curve window in the Animation mode helps. ctrl+r. click to add a sort of key frame (have yet to figure out how to delete it though....)

Edit: After completing a very fast (visually and work-wise, under an hour to do, and 6 steps in 3 seconds) walk cycle, I started to play more in the IPO window. I find that adding a point by ctrl+r. click was not the right way to do it, rather, i works better. hitting tab allows me to adjust the IPO curve controllers, giving me finer graphical control over the animation.
Within this mode of adjusting the controls, is where the ctrl+ r. click comes in. I can add a point, move it, and adjust how it curves the line
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on October 16, 2009, 07:24:10 am
Yes, you're right, it is ALT-I and not CTRL-I, I remembered that it was one of those but forgot which one when I typed all that - thanks for clearing that up.

I haven't actually tried this in the IPO editor, but lots of stuff can be deleted just with the "Delete" key in various views.  That's just a guess for the answer to that one.

...Actually, for animating bones and not whole meshes, don't you want the "action" editor instead of the "IPO Curve" editor?  I've found that when I add keyframes for poses the bones all show up in the action editor with key points for adjusting things.

Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: vedrit on October 16, 2009, 07:58:49 am
Depends on what your doing. For cycles, you can first do it through action, and that gives you a good stating point. But IPO is where you can line up the starting and ending poses so it repeats seamlessly.
The animation teacher I had for 2 years said that there are more ways of doing animation and modeling than just one or two. And none of them are wrong.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on October 23, 2009, 05:16:58 pm
maybe this can help a little, too
http://opengameart.org/content/blender-humanoid-rig
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: TrashMan on November 16, 2009, 10:15:42 pm
Say, would it be possible to get this mesh in some other format?

I want to try makign a few armor/soldier models and this would make a good basilne
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on November 17, 2009, 01:17:25 am
These (screen-shot below) are the formats Blender can export to, more are also available from extra plug-ins.

Is there a format you would prefer?

I have this (un-armored) version and just one version with some type of armor done (It hasn't yet been decided which armor type to replace yet), so it would be a great help if someone else were to also do some of the modeling work here.

It would also speed up development - I'm personally split working on a number of projects right now.

Once vedrit finishes animations, I should be able to import the skeleton into almost any other new soldier model (with some occasional tweaking and adjustments).
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: TrashMan on November 17, 2009, 09:48:54 pm
3dmax, lightwave, wavefront, direct X - any one of them should do.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on November 17, 2009, 11:04:32 pm
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/data_source/models/characters/destructavator/body/

I exported several common formats and they are now in the data_source folder, so anyone who wants to can download them and build more armor types and soldier models.

This only includes a male model for now, a female one is coming later when its ready.  There's also a mesh for a head, but you don't have to use it - head and body meshes are kept separate anyways.

Exporters can be buggy with Blender, I can't guarantee that all of these exported correctly, but I'm sure at least one of them is good to work with.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: TrashMan on November 19, 2009, 07:37:38 pm
thanx :) IT works fine. Fiddling with it now.

EDIT:
Just to give you a general idea of what I'm aiming at:
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on November 20, 2009, 01:53:06 am
Not a bad concept - for a start.  I think it has potential, when more parts of the body get covered.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: TrashMan on November 20, 2009, 07:44:58 am
Tehy will. I'm aiming for something similar to a police riot gear, but more futuristic.

I still have to add the back armor, abdomen protection (I can do that with just a texture tough..found a few neat ones), sin guards and leg guards..and possibly some kind of gauntlets/arm protectors.

After this one, I'll try a power armor
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Mattn on December 06, 2009, 05:49:49 pm
Dave, we now have lod support in our engine - it would be really sweet if you could provide different levels of details for the character models (especially higher res for menus and very very high zooms in the maps - does blender has support for this? (i highly suspect it does - but i don't know blender at all)
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on December 07, 2009, 05:17:11 am
Yes, Blender does indeed support this - I've been very busy (again) the last few days, although I expect to be able to do more modeling work and such this coming week.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: theotherhiveking on December 07, 2009, 01:10:06 pm
Yes, Blender does indeed support this - I've been very busy (again) the last few days, although I expect to be able to do more modeling work and such this coming week.


Care to explain how? I have been looking for it without luck.
If you mean multires, then that afaik requieres you to use it from the very begining.
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on December 18, 2009, 05:51:08 pm
Sorry I didn't respond to this until now - The last few weeks have been crazy,

I'll do some more looking into this and how it works with Blender, but IIRC aren't there several ways of doing LOD models?  Would I just make several versions of a model and leave it to the game engine to swap them?  I'm getting better with Blender but I admit I'm a bit new to this LOD stuff, although I'd like to learn it.

Also, I haven't heard from Migel in a long time and don't know if he's coming back or not.  I remember he only did a few head textures and just the male version of the un-armored soldier, and I can't match his skill to fix the female texture.  Although I do have some versions I haven't shown in this forum yet of a higher-detail soldier model that could be used instead, I'd really hate for Migel's work to go unused...
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: Destructavator on January 01, 2010, 09:28:07 am
@vedrit: I tried to fix a few things with the crouching walk animation, take a look:

http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/sAnim4.zip
Title: Re: Redo of Soldier Body model
Post by: MCR on February 24, 2010, 01:12:45 am
Hey !
Just wanted to point out that there is a lot going forward with MakeHuman.
Tried the latest alpha & the latest nightly build & they seem to work really great  :o
The latest nightly build could even generate models with hair & different cuts  ;D
The models generated really look great !!!

Check it out:

http://makehuman.blogspot.com/