UFO:Alien Invasion

Technical support => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Colamann on April 23, 2009, 12:36:58 am

Title: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Colamann on April 23, 2009, 12:36:58 am
Hey guys!

There are two things I'd like in the game, so I'd like to know if there's a chance of them being realized.

First thing: This came up in some thread in the tactics forum, but AFAIK there was no comment on this by the D-team. Will civilians in future releases run away from the aliens, instead of walking around randomly? That would make the whole situation feel a lot more like an emergency and add a sense of urgence. As well as a sense of realism :D

And now for something completely different: Are there gonna be stun gas grenades for the grenade launcher, or some other ranged stun weapon? The gas grenade for the laucher should be easy to realize, unless ranged stun weapons are left out on purpose due to balancing reasons.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 23, 2009, 12:52:26 am
I'm of two minds about civilians running away. On one hand it makes sense for them to do so, but on the other hand it would effectively mean that the civilians would migrate to the edges of the map every time, and that's bad.

Stun gas ammo for the launcher isn't planned... It doesn't really fit the weapon, nor the spirit of PHALANX' combat operations. I feel gearing the equipment towards stunning too much sends the wrong message.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 23, 2009, 05:15:50 am
I'm of two minds about civilians running away. On one hand it makes sense for them to do so, but on the other hand it would effectively mean that the civilians would migrate to the edges of the map every time, and that's bad.

Hi BTAxis and Colamann,

I agree that running away for civi = most logical thing to do.

Question is why is running to edge of maps bad??
Maybe AI could set the civi to run towards the firebird instead if there is a valid reason for line above?

Stun gas ammo for the launcher isn't planned... It doesn't really fit the weapon, nor the spirit of PHALANX' combat operations. I feel gearing the equipment towards stunning too much sends the wrong message.
I was wondering abt the stunning aspect..... afterall, should we not stun as mani enemies as possible so as to 'interrogate' em? lol.

I guess with heavier armors coming up for aliens, this might put restrictions and hesitations into mani players, trying to stun onli after punching a round or 2 into the alien before stunning?
Afterall, we do want them alive, dun we? Or are we aiming to kill em all w/o understanding the plans of these evilings?
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: geever on April 23, 2009, 04:01:52 pm
We have an unfinished LUA based AI system in our pocket. Once pathfinding and tracing could be fixed and speeded up (maybe threaded) we can think about finish it. If it's ready anyone with some LUA skills will be able to script the civilian ai for himself. Not in the near future though.

-geever
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: scamp on April 23, 2009, 04:07:38 pm
The most logical thing a civilian would do in the real world would be to run away from the aliens and towards their defense ( not the edge of the map but your squad members ). They would feel 'safe' behind your squad members. But ofcourse civilians would panic and do irrational things, perhaps some would carry small firearms or knives and try and kill the aliens themselves ( the 'hero type' civilian ) or they would kill themselves rather than being eaten alive ( the 'suicide type' civilian ) or perhaps they would just freeze and do nothing ( the 'terrorized' civilian ). Plenty of things that civilians can do. They could ( should really ) be seen as a third army ( aliens / civilians / squad ).
Also some civilians will run towards churches / hospitals rather than edges of maps.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 23, 2009, 04:39:16 pm
Question is why is running to edge of maps bad??
Maybe AI could set the civi to run towards the firebird instead if there is a valid reason for line above?

I knew someone would be suggesting that. The thing is that it fixes the symptoms while not addressing the basic problem that civilians running away is a fundamentally flawed concept. It's not good to try to work around such a flaw, because it adds complexity, which in turn might throw up new sub-problems requiring further fixes, all of which serve to further complicate. It's better to just come up with something else, something that will simply work.

As for the question of why civilians running to the edges of the map is bad, that's because the middle of the map won't be used anymore. The civilians run to the edges and the aliens follow the civilians. That means battles would boil down to "cleaning the edges", and that is bad.

Quote
Afterall, we do want them alive, dun we? Or are we aiming to kill em all w/o understanding the plans of these evilings?

We do want live specimens, and in quantity too, but we don't want them ALL alive. Not by a long shot! The aliens are trying to kill us, and we're killing them right back. That, in a nutshell, is what the game is about. Capturing alive is part of the game too, but it is not the most important part.

The most logical thing a civilian would do in the real world would be to run away from the aliens and towards their defense ( not the edge of the map but your squad members ). They would feel 'safe' behind your squad members. But ofcourse civilians would panic and do irrational things, perhaps some would carry small firearms or knives and try and kill the aliens themselves ( the 'hero type' civilian ) or they would kill themselves rather than being eaten alive ( the 'suicide type' civilian ) or perhaps they would just freeze and do nothing ( the 'terrorized' civilian ). Plenty of things that civilians can do. They could ( should really ) be seen as a third army ( aliens / civilians / squad ).
Also some civilians will run towards churches / hospitals rather than edges of maps.

This has been said many times before. I'm set against civilians running towards the soldiers because this would be EASY. All you'd need to do is set up a defensive line for the civilians to cross, and wait until the aliens come in range. That's not UFO:AI as I want it to play out.

Running towards special locations is possible, but pointless as the aliens aren't going to discriminate (they won't stay out of churches).

Civilians shooting back is a possibility, but civilians killing aliens is not. If a civilian could kill an alien, PHALANX would have no reason to exist.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Borsti67 on April 23, 2009, 07:28:27 pm
As for the question of why civilians running to the edges of the map is bad, that's because the middle of the map won't be used anymore. The civilians run to the edges and the aliens follow the civilians.
Is this necessarily so? I would think of a behaviour like the ghosts in PacMan (u remember? :D). Normally, they'd render you chanceless. But by chance, sometimes they took the wrong corner and you got out of trouble...
Brought forward to the civilians: When they see an alien and aren't "frozen by shock", they turn around and run away (whichever direction this may be), perhaps even in some zig-zag-course, until they can't come forth or the alien gets out of sight.
Especially in the latter case, the civ will again start moving randomly (may be not THAT realistic, but a limited map isn't, too).
So may be the next time the alien will arrive from another side, forcing him to flee - eventually to where he first came from...

Just a few thougts about the problem, not a solution. I agree with you, this should be handled as one step, not in many "workarounds"!
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 23, 2009, 09:12:25 pm
On a more global note, I don't consider "it's realistic" a valid argument for a game mechanic that hurts the game.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Borsti67 on April 23, 2009, 09:36:02 pm
*grin*
Sometimes I really enjoy your comments, BTAxis. Short and sweet.

Of course you're right. Anyway, we're trying to keep as realistic as possible WITHOUT breaking the game, aren't we? ;)
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 23, 2009, 09:42:11 pm
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: s300pmu1 on April 23, 2009, 10:13:14 pm
it would effectively mean that the civilians would migrate to the edges of the map every time, and that's bad.

Not necessarily. If i remember correctly, aliens do avoid PHALANX guys and try to stay our of their fire zones. They, however, do this without migrating to map edges. What would make that impossible for civilians?

The logical thing would be to make civilians stay avay from aliens in their LOS within a certain distance. That is, they run, for as much as their own civvy TUs allow, avoiding being in aliens' LOSs. If they have a PHALANX vehicle in their sight, they run towards it, as well, but only if so. And certainly not even half the civvies on map would have a firebird in their LOS at the same time, would they?

As for gas grenades, from the logical point of view, I do find their absence stupid, considering that similar weapons do exist IRL. At least a taser would be helpful, because if a game gets all unrealistic, it does begin to suck, balance or no balance. You could have all guys swordfighting with no gunpowder and energy weapons just the same, for the sake of some illusionary balance, and turn the game into some idiotic world of warcraft clone. No offence to both balancemongers and WOW lovers intended.

A logical thing would be to make distance stun weapons less accurate and more costly, perhaps, even, allow them to be inconsistent in effect - sometimes stun, sometimes ineffective even on hit, sometimes - killing the target instead of stunning. This is, actually, how non-lethal weapons do behave IRL. I do understand that doing as I suggest would mean some additional work, but after all, if you said A, gotta say B or just plain admit you're not up to the task.

Repeat, no offence intended.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 24, 2009, 04:34:12 am
I knew someone would be suggesting that. The thing is that it fixes the symptoms while not addressing the basic problem that civilians running away is a fundamentally flawed concept. It's not good to try to work around such a flaw, because it adds complexity, which in turn might throw up new sub-problems requiring further fixes, all of which serve to further complicate. It's better to just come up with something else, something that will simply work.

As for the question of why civilians running to the edges of the map is bad, that's because the middle of the map won't be used anymore. The civilians run to the edges and the aliens follow the civilians. That means battles would boil down to "cleaning the edges", and that is bad.
Yupz, i agree with this point of 'cleaning the edges'. So the current AI for civi is simply to run to edge?

Can i suggest that they simply be adopting 2.2.1 style - run opp direction of aliens, towards PHALANX members if possible, staying out of LOS of aliens. 3 simple concepts.

If we dun like running away concept, we can have simply a hide and seek stuff, simply staying out of LOS of aliens.

Unless of course we are thinking of planning to arm these civi, then KILL those aliens-bas@#&*
Then the way i propose is:
1) Arm those civi with basic wpns (like pistols and max M16 like wpns aka assault rifles).
2) AI - Tactical guerilla style shoot those bas*&*s
3) Stay out of Alien LOS.

What do u think BT? :P


We do want live specimens, and in quantity too, but we don't want them ALL alive. Not by a long shot! The aliens are trying to kill us, and we're killing them right back. That, in a nutshell, is what the game is about. Capturing alive is part of the game too, but it is not the most important part.

This has been said many times before. I'm set against civilians running towards the soldiers because this would be EASY. All you'd need to do is set up a defensive line for the civilians to cross, and wait until the aliens come in range. That's not UFO:AI as I want it to play out.

Running towards special locations is possible, but pointless as the aliens aren't going to discriminate (they won't stay out of churches).

Civilians shooting back is a possibility, but civilians killing aliens is not. If a civilian could kill an alien, PHALANX would have no reason to exist.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 24, 2009, 11:00:37 am
Unless of course we are thinking of planning to arm these civi, then KILL those aliens-bas@#&*
Then the way i propose is:
1) Arm those civi with basic wpns (like pistols and max M16 like wpns aka assault rifles).
2) AI - Tactical guerilla style shoot those bas*&*s
3) Stay out of Alien LOS.

This is pretty much how I think it should happen, though only the occasional civilian would be armed (this isn't the wild West), and civilians should never be able to kill an alien that isn't severely weakened.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 24, 2009, 11:34:08 am
Then the way i propose is:
1) Arm those civi with basic wpns (like pistols and max M16 like wpns aka assault rifles).
2) AI - Tactical guerilla style shoot those bas*&*s
3) Stay out of Alien LOS.

This is pretty much how I think it should happen, though only the occasional civilian would be armed (this isn't the wild West), and civilians should never be able to kill an alien that isn't severely weakened.

Ahhhhhh..... now its making sense. So in other words we should get some civilians to help us gun stuff...

PS: Perhaps u can consider this: With aliens coming down on us fast and furious, all citizens are now encouraged to keep some form of armoury in their home - resulting in all civi being able to get their hands on guns (and basic guns onli, mind us). :P
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 24, 2009, 11:42:31 am
That doesn't make much sense... Governments would never encourage its citizenry to bear arms. Even in America, it's only the "right" to bear arms.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Destructavator on April 24, 2009, 01:56:38 pm
Quote
Even in America, it's only the "right" to bear arms.

...which is actually an intentional misinterpretation of our Constitution, thanks to a *minority* of "gun nuts" who are very vocal and want to carry guns, while the majority of citizens are actually against guns but don't have the lobbyists and organized movement as powerful by comparison.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: scamp on April 24, 2009, 02:41:59 pm
Governments would never encourage its citizenry to bear arms. Even in America, it's only the "right" to bear arms.

They would if aliens landed on earth  :D
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 24, 2009, 09:44:00 pm
That doesn't make much sense... Governments would never encourage its citizenry to bear arms. Even in America, it's only the "right" to bear arms.
My dear BTAxis,

There is no more America here in UFOAI. Just Aliens and Earth. We are united against the bastards. Hence, Governments in their desperation, gives this appeal:

The united governments now appeal to all citizens to take up whatever arms to fight this onslaught, until Phalanx come up with an ultimate plan to end this threat permanently. Its THE fight for survival, earthlings. Fight!
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 24, 2009, 09:45:22 pm
What do you mean, there is no more America. It's right there on the geoscape. It's called United America.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Destructavator on April 25, 2009, 03:44:18 am
Perhaps Odie didn't mean it literally - maybe he meant that individual nations and their issues with each other were no longer as important in the face of the new, greater threat from the aliens.

...which I think actually makes sense.  After all, kind of as an analogy with the same idea, if you're trying to work out a relationship issue with a friend so the two of you don't become ex-friends, and suddenly a third person walks into the room from out of nowhere, pulls out a shotgun, and tries to drill both of you, priorities change.  Chances are that when that happens you and your friend will be much more worried about the third guy and not getting killed by him, and the disagreement you two had becomes petty by comparison and can wait.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 25, 2009, 04:44:23 am
What do you mean, there is no more America. It's right there on the geoscape. It's called United America.
Perhaps Odie didn't mean it literally - maybe he meant that individual nations and their issues with each other were no longer as important in the face of the new, greater threat from the aliens.
Nods nods. Destructavator is spot on. Tks.

Yupz, the issue with individualities here is no longer a concern. Nations basically do not get concerned about their existance as individual states, rather, they are now united against a common front - using any means (including arming even 12 year olds.) :P


...which I think actually makes sense.  After all, kind of as an analogy with the same idea, if you're trying to work out a relationship issue with a friend so the two of you don't become ex-friends, and suddenly a third person walks into the room from out of nowhere, pulls out a shotgun, and tries to drill both of you, priorities change.  Chances are that when that happens you and your friend will be much more worried about the third guy and not getting killed by him, and the disagreement you two had becomes petty by comparison and can wait.
:o Nice example! Haha. Very nice.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 25, 2009, 12:03:30 pm
But that's not what we were talking about, is it? The game setting already provides for nations not having any big conflicts among each other (the two friends in the analogy) and they do work together to fight the aliens in the form of PHALANX. The argument was about governments handing out weapons to normal citizens, which would NEVER happen, not even during an alien invasion.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Destructavator on April 25, 2009, 02:16:20 pm
But that's not what we were talking about, is it? The game setting already provides for nations not having any big conflicts among each other (the two friends in the analogy) and they do work together to fight the aliens in the form of PHALANX. The argument was about governments handing out weapons to normal citizens, which would NEVER happen, not even during an alien invasion.

That's true, handing out weapons like that probably wouldn't happen, I agree.

Actually, this thread was originally about something to do with "Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons" and got pulled off-course in a different direction more than once.  In the interest of bringing it at least somewhat back towards being on-topic again, I'll say that ranged stun weapons do sound like a good idea and it would be nice if they were in the game.

I don't know if advanced taser-guns could be in the game, or something based upon them, or perhaps something that works differently?  Or how about a short-range launcher that fires a net that wraps around an alien then discharges a current to stun them?  These are quick off-the-top-of-my-head ideas, but with some creativity and thought I'd imagine something could be put into the game for capturing live aliens without having to be directly next to them.

Also, regarding AI, people have different personalities, I think it would be important for more than one reaction - meaning some people would cower in fear not knowing what to do, others would run in terror, etc.  Whatever ends up being in the release when that day comes, I think it would make sense if not all of the civs acted the exact same way.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 25, 2009, 02:17:53 pm
Well, there's the electrolaser. It's a taser-ish weapon that delivers an electric shock guided by a laser beam.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Destructavator on April 25, 2009, 02:20:18 pm
Well, there's the electrolaser. It's a taser-ish weapon that delivers an electric shock guided by a laser beam.

Nice.  That seems like a reasonable solution, especially since it wouldn't require lots of additional coding and such.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 25, 2009, 03:35:20 pm
It's in the 2.3-dev trunk, and should work already, actually.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 25, 2009, 06:55:26 pm
Well, there's the electrolaser. It's a taser-ish weapon that delivers an electric shock guided by a laser beam.
Oooo, tats nice. BTAxis, whats the wiki link for this pls? Or the proposal link? Wanna take a lookie. ;)
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 25, 2009, 07:01:10 pm
Actually, this thread was originally about something to do with "Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons" and got pulled off-course in a different direction more than once.  In the interest of bringing it at least somewhat back towards being on-topic again, I'll say that ranged stun weapons do sound like a good idea and it would be nice if they were in the game.
Ops, i guess i was one of the culprits in moving thread slightly away from main discussions. Sorry.

But back to stun weapons - sounds good: Adv Tasers. I remember loving the way it works when i was playing Siphon Filters...... and i love to hear the enemies scream when fried. lol. *ok, i am NOT a saddist*...... hmmm... then again, i might just be one.....

Ranged stun guns...... tazors sounds perfect fit for this. AND power of this can go up higher using dual batteries (maybe even the laser rifle's D-clip.)
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 25, 2009, 08:32:07 pm
There is no writeup yet, I'm afraid. You can view the current stats for it in the script files, but they're kind of I-made-it-up and not tested at all.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: vedrit on April 26, 2009, 02:58:08 am
Heck, even the modern-day tazer would be good. Max range is a couple tiles, low accuracy, 1 charge. But any ranged-melee is awsome.

Sorry to pull the thread off course again, but I had a thought: No nation is EVER going to stand by, protected by a global protector, and NOT pick on someone weaker. If UA were having particular problems with alien invasions, someone, say CO, is going to march in on the weakened nation and say "The old government wasnt doing its job. We claim this as ours, and will proect it as such."
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Colamann on April 27, 2009, 03:59:39 pm
I'm of two minds about civilians running away. On one hand it makes sense for them to do so, but on the other hand it would effectively mean that the civilians would migrate to the edges of the map every time, and that's bad.ยท
Alright, that's a pity. I can't come up with a solution for this, though, so I won't complain. ;)

Quote
Stun gas ammo for the launcher isn't planned... It doesn't really fit the weapon, nor the spirit of PHALANX' combat operations. I feel gearing the equipment towards stunning too much sends the wrong message.

[...]

Well, there's the electrolaser. It's a taser-ish weapon that delivers an electric shock guided by a laser beam.
Sounds great to me. Though modding a stun gas grenade for the launcher into the game is tempting... Shouldn't be impossible, as well.

As for the 'wrong message' part: I'm still influenced by the old X-COM games, where you pretty much had to stun as many aliens as possible to be able to research everything in the game. Has this changed (or at least lessened)?

The argument was about governments handing out weapons to normal citizens, which would NEVER happen, not even during an alien invasion.
Especially if even the regular army fails miserably at fighting the aliens. Authorities would advise people to run like hell because you and your trusted shotgun can't kill what a platoon of marines can't kill.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 27, 2009, 04:05:58 pm
No, capturing live aliens is vital for completing the game (or will be at any rate). It's just that, well, stunning shouldn't be too EASY. If it's easy, you could just go around stunning every alien on the map, and then what are all those weapons that kill good for? Stunning should be possible, but only when the conditions are favourable, to make live captures more valuable.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Colamann on April 27, 2009, 04:45:53 pm
Let me rephrase the question. In XCOM, there used to be a bazillion different versions of every alien, like soldier, engineer, navigator, pilot and commander. Thus you'd have to capture 50+ different aliens alive. To complicate things, there was no way of telling which one is which.

What I wanted to know is whether you reduced that workload, or not. Because if you didn't, then the player pretty much would have to stun every alien if at all possible. I read in the wiki that the longer you play, the more pressure you will get from the aliens. So a player can't just do hundreds of missions stunning an alien from time to time, you know?
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 27, 2009, 05:40:11 pm
I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Colamann on April 27, 2009, 07:10:52 pm
Simply put: If the game requires players to stun huge amounts of aliens in order to win the game, then the game needs a good (ranged) stun weapon. So my question was: Will I have to stun huge amounts of aliens?
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on April 27, 2009, 07:51:57 pm
Depends on what you call huge. Dozens, certainly, but not hundreds.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Colamann on April 27, 2009, 08:24:10 pm
Alright. Thanks for the info (and your patience! ;) ).
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 28, 2009, 08:37:06 am
Let me rephrase the question. In XCOM, there used to be a bazillion different versions of every alien, like soldier, engineer, navigator, pilot and commander. Thus you'd have to capture 50+ different aliens alive. To complicate things, there was no way of telling which one is which.

What I wanted to know is whether you reduced that workload, or not. Because if you didn't, then the player pretty much would have to stun every alien if at all possible. I read in the wiki that the longer you play, the more pressure you will get from the aliens. So a player can't just do hundreds of missions stunning an alien from time to time, you know?

BTAxis,
Well, let us refresh our memories for X-Com 1.

There are basically Sectoid, Snakeman, Etheral, Muton, Floater, Celatid, Chryssalid, Reaper, Sectopod and Cyberdisc.

For most of those, we have leaders (usually the Etheral or higher intelligence creatures). Then engineers (across most race except Sectopod Cyberdisc or Chryssalid or Celatid). Then Soldiers (for most). Then navigators and pilots... -.-"

Let say based on those 5 classes, we are talking abt at least variations of some 10 types of possible soldiers, 4-5 types of leaders and 4-5 types of engineers, then 2-3 more types of pilots and navigators....

That brings us to at least some 20-25 types of different types of race/vocations. Even if u managed to capture 2 each, you will have some whopping 50 aliens alive already. (And i am sure u will get more of those.... since we are aiming for leaders)

I remembering capturing a whopping 200+ aliens in X-com1. lol.

So, yupz, are we going to emulate this in UFOAI, thats the original question.



I think this original style of aliens-vocationing, is nice and puts depth and practicality in the game. :) Personal opinion opening up for discussion (not quarrels. :P)
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: geever on April 28, 2009, 11:21:48 am
There are basically Sectoid, Snakeman, Etheral, Muton, Floater, Celatid, Chryssalid, Reaper, Sectopod and Cyberdisc.

You left Silacoid out! Shame on you! :P

For most of those, we have leaders (usually the Etheral or higher intelligence creatures). Then engineers (across most race except Sectopod Cyberdisc or Chryssalid or Celatid). Then Soldiers (for most). Then navigators and pilots... -.-"

In fact the first 5 were the main races other were "terrorists", each main race had a terrorist race (Floater had 2)... There were no pilots only navigators, and some commanders on battleships or bases.

-geever
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on April 28, 2009, 11:52:30 am
You left Silacoid out! Shame on you! :P

In fact the first 5 were the main races other were "terrorists", each main race had a terrorist race (Floater had 2)... There were no pilots only navigators, and some commanders on battleships or bases.

-geever
Muhahahhaha!!
Woot!

geever, geever...... lol..... ok ok, silacoid.... my bad ok? lol.

Yupz, mainly alot are terrorist, and a couple of commanders alright. Lol. :P Basically i captured so mani i dun remember em all........ oh yar, silacoids are bad idiots, dam hard to capture...... i will usually shoot on sight. LOL.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Xenotron on May 19, 2009, 05:41:02 pm
There were simple ways to discover the nature of alien - by Mind sphere(or reader?) and Psi-amplifier.

But, let's think once more about Civs AI. What will you do if encounter alien in your town? I think you will run and cover somewhere. And I will not run definitely towards PHALANX troops! What's for? After all these operations, I think all population over the world will soon know that PHALANX troops could hit civs as well as aliens. Because it's battlefield, not rescuing mission! So, It's silly to move towards either alien or trooper. The best way - to run from LOS and just cover.
By addition to possible civ characters: they could also be "suicidal fanatics" who could both runs toward aliens(Long-time waited gods from the sky!) or fight against the PHALANX(their relatives was killed during past missions or they are helping aliens due to their faith(Apocalypse Day)).
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: odie on May 21, 2009, 11:16:52 am
There were simple ways to discover the nature of alien - by Mind sphere(or reader?) and Psi-amplifier.

But, let's think once more about Civs AI. What will you do if encounter alien in your town? I think you will run and cover somewhere. And I will not run definitely towards PHALANX troops! What's for? After all these operations, I think all population over the world will soon know that PHALANX troops could hit civs as well as aliens. Because it's battlefield, not rescuing mission! So, It's silly to move towards either alien or trooper. The best way - to run from LOS and just cover.
By addition to possible civ characters: they could also be "suicidal fanatics" who could both runs toward aliens(Long-time waited gods from the sky!) or fight against the PHALANX(their relatives was killed during past missions or they are helping aliens due to their faith(Apocalypse Day)).

O.o
Wow, tat AI would be pretty strange to code (though its simply a couple of conditions preset with a random counter). But why not lets make this game more 'standard' by having a standard behaviour for the civis ? (i.e. such as running towards a certain point.)
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Nightranger on June 08, 2009, 04:41:43 am
Guys, I am REALLY ENJOYING this game!


Okay.  I agree with Xenotron.  My thought was that they would try and hide.  Wandering aimlessly in a battlefield is not advisable.

I've had enough experience in 2.2.1 where the CIVILIANS would congregate in a hallway, blocking it for several turns.  My desired solution was to shoot one, but I didn't want any bad press.  Guess I could have stunned one of them if I had a stun rod.

The aliens do a good job of hiding between turns.  The civilians just need to stay out of the way.  Running to the map edges would just make them better targets in a lot of cases.

There's my $.05.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: PhilRoi on June 15, 2009, 11:00:48 am
Hand thrown grenades are generally larger in effect then anything launched.   Given the stated size of the Launcher round Keep in mind how much actual payload of "Gas" can be fit into the round.    Not much would be my take.  certainly far less then a hand thrown gas grenade.  The area of effect would be smaller and the concentration and thus effectiveness of the irritants dispersed would be less.  Can it be done for "realism"?  yes certainly.  But i think it would need to be "nerfed" appropriately/legitimately to avoid upsetting the game balance.  in short.  I am opposed to it on the grounds of gamebalance/flavor.  The excuse being that the  GL round is too small to provide adequate dispersion of THIS SPECIFIC MIX of chemicals needed in a quantity sufficient to be "combat effective."

Civ's on the battlefield? people are going to have one of 3 responces,  and they are the same basic behaviors you see sheep doing: Hide, Herd, Hysteria.

1. Hide - Run from aliens, and PHALANX both.(possibly other civ's too.)  "There are people with guns shooting!  OH MY GOD!  If I Hide then maybe they won't notice me. I don't want to get shot!"  (simple LOS check,  move only when needed to get out of LOS of others.)

2. Herd - Civ's will look for other Civ's and cluster/follow them.   Some may chose to "Herd" with PHALANX soldiers, But only till they see other Civ's to be with.  In times of trouble they go with who they know.  "Where are my Children!?  Where is my Husband? Stay with me! I don't want to be alone!!!" (check targets seen and move to closest "friendly" inside certain range.  otherwise Hide/hysteria as appropriate.)

3. Hysteria-  If an alien gets too close they might attack the aliens.  when up against the wall, what else do they have to lose? they will die horribly but they might try.  "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  Wheres my BABY?!?  WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY BABY!"  (Check targets and if alien too close, say 2-3 tiles and if injured,  attack!  otherwise  move randomly.)

If I had to code behaviours for a CIV AI those are the ones that I would do.  You can just give every Civ one of the default behaviors for the map and have them stick with it.  The HERD responce can lead to some realistic interactions.  Lady HERDS to guy with HIDE responce.  HERDS with HYSTERIA.  could be someone trying to calm down family member....  HERDS and HERDS = 2 kids holding each other frozen in place.  or simply script a few basic conditions where a person can shift AI modes.  start them all in a random mode  but then let it shift as needed.
If i had to code all the behaviors into 1 AI behaviour set.  Hide when alone, Herd with other CIV's prefered or PHALANX if close enough and nothing better.  And hysteria if aliens too close,  RUN if possible,  Fight only if cornered.

I can provide evidence to support these behaviours.  and setting it up this way wouldn't unduely influence gameplay.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: Destructavator on June 15, 2009, 05:11:05 pm

Civ's on the battlefield? people are going to have one of 3 responces,  and they are the same basic behaviors you see sheep doing: Hide, Herd, Hysteria.

1. Hide - Run from aliens, and PHALANX both.(possibly other civ's too.)  "There are people with guns shooting!  OH MY GOD!  If I Hide then maybe they won't notice me. I don't want to get shot!"  (simple LOS check,  move only when needed to get out of LOS of others.)

2. Herd - Civ's will look for other Civ's and cluster/follow them.   Some may chose to "Herd" with PHALANX soldiers, But only till they see other Civ's to be with.  In times of trouble they go with who they know.  "Where are my Children!?  Where is my Husband? Stay with me! I don't want to be alone!!!" (check targets seen and move to closest "friendly" inside certain range.  otherwise Hide/hysteria as appropriate.)

3. Hysteria-  If an alien gets too close they might attack the aliens.  when up against the wall, what else do they have to lose? they will die horribly but they might try.  "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  Wheres my BABY?!?  WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY BABY!"  (Check targets and if alien too close, say 2-3 tiles and if injured,  attack!  otherwise  move randomly.)

I agree with this - Civilians are not clones and don't always react the same under pressure or panic-inducing situation.  I only spent three years in law enforcement, and in a grunt position at that, but I'd say this is pretty accurate for how people behave when it hits the fan.

Civilians really need to have more than one way of reacting, I'd imagine it shouldn't be too hard for the game to randomly assign one personality type to each civ for how they react.

I also think there should be a separate personality type for how police and other armed and friendly but non-player-controlled characters behave.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on June 15, 2009, 06:06:25 pm
You may want to have a look at our LUA AI scripts.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: PhilRoi on June 15, 2009, 08:55:01 pm
I'd love to.  but I'm stuck on a FOB in the Sandbox.  When I get home I'll love to dig into your LUA AI scripts...  Right now the connection can't take it.  unless someone cares to zip the appropriate files and e-mail them to me.
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: BTAxis on June 15, 2009, 09:11:01 pm
Get them from the repo:
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/ai/
Title: Re: Civilian AI and ranged stun weapons
Post by: PhilRoi on June 16, 2009, 02:13:13 pm
got them.  working it out now.