UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Design => Topic started by: Saboera on March 28, 2009, 12:39:42 am
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Hello, I wish to be helpful with the game development especially with texturing, concept art and maybe a bit of modelling but unfortunately, I am already pretty busy with a few personal projects of mine. I might be able to provide a bit of help when I am done with my own projects somewhere around late summer. In any case, I must say that UFO is awesome and thank you for making and developing this game, I would still like to be able to contribute despite my lack of time. I might possibly have time to do a few reskins (mostly for amours because we need more of them!) however, I am new to open source development and I would need a quick explanation as to how it truly works, what needs to be done and where I can find the skins.
As an aspiring game designer, nothing stop me from brainstorming a bit about what I would possibly like to see in UFO:AI, I am more than sure you must have seen similar suggestions but I just recently joined the forum and haven’t had time to browse threads a lot.
Take those for what they are, possible suggestion, like them or not I don’t really intend to bash my head against the wall if you think they do not fit the vision of what you wish to accomplish with the development so feel free to dismiss them. I’m warning you, this is a long read! I am mostly writing this because as said, I wish to contribute and give something back considering it entertained me for many hours and totally deserve attention.
1: Squad creation or team creation.
Purpose: Roleplay flavour, possible statistical boost and easier soldier management.
Implementation: The way I would see this is that you can create squads of X men (subjective number). This would make it easier to hire/unhire and affect a squad of soldiers to a dropship rather than scrolling across the list of potential soldiers.
The Squad leader could possibly give a small bonus to accuracy or TU when he his near his troops, if a squad leader die during combat, a negative bonus or effect could take place, this would be to simulate leadership upon the squad. A squad leader should technically be higher ranked than his squad members for the bonus effects to affect them the most, this would allow the fresh recruits to ‘’profit’’ of the experience from the veteran soldiers. A co-leader could possibly be made as well to be able to keep this bonus while spreading forces across the field. If a Squad leader fall or his stuck in the hospital, the co-leader could take over for the next mission. A squad with a dead leader need to appoint a new one before engaging a new mission, possibly requiring training and possibly temporary blocking access to this squad while the leader train. This would allow the players to actually make uses of multiple teams and all those soldiers who are stuck in the rooster unhired.
Members are just your core soldiers. There are seven or six (co-leader or not) of them which can be swapped in and out with the Reserve (remaining soldiers). Those soldiers are the core of the Team and could possibly once again receive a small bonus when the core team is sent on the field together.
Reserve are the remaining soldiers affected to a squad, the reserve is existing for the purpose of replacing wounded members or to call upon more specialised roles. The reserve could contain between two and five members.
2: Cryo weapons? Support Weapons?
Purpose: Those weapons could be use as lethal force but their main role is to support teammates or fill specific roles.
Implementation: The way I envision this is that cryo weapons could be use in a way similar to how the flamethrower currently work for damage, it would be an alternative to heat damage and could actually slow down aliens reaction time or drain a bit of their TU. Frost could be more effective at slowing down heavily armoured targets crippling their gear and be an overall nice support weapon addition to the game. I already see the grenade launcher as some sort of support weapon but it would possibly need more variation, possibly cryo grenades or more non lethal effects? In overall I think having support weapons would contribute greatly to create strategic interest amongst the players.
3: More non-combat items requiring to be used
Purpose: Allowing scouting and giving a nice range of combos with one handed weapons such as pistols.
Implementation: I think that scouting should be a very important part of the game and being able to properly localize alien position before engaging should be a crucial tactical advantage. How many times did you lose a member because you had to blindly rush in a room only to find 3 aliens waiting for you there, I lost many members because of this and members should be as precious as they can be, the loss of a member should have a drastic effect.
But where am I getting to with this you might ask? Scouting gadgets, handheld scanner, binoculars, things that need to be used similar to how the medkit is used, things that can be equipped with a one handed weapon. A handheld scanner for example could be used to scan a certain amount of squares within a close localisation, for example your scout throw a scan in the next room before sending your main forces in, this would allow the players to have an approximate evaluation of what is waiting within that room. Some counter items worn by aliens could exist as well, maybe some kind of anti-scanning device which would make them undetectable at the exception of naked eye.
Binoculars could be used for scouting, allowing a scout to see farther than they really can with naked eye, from what I read across the board, there will be an implementation of sight in the future releases and this would be a good start to use this mechanic. Some variations could possibly exist as well, night vision or maybe X-ray.
Radio? It could be possible to have radio contact with an aircraft, allowing a surgical strike from whatever aircraft came along the dropship upon the field, with limited uses of course but it could be a nice addition attempting to strike down aliens without exposing your soldiers. Of course a scout would be needed to locate alien positions before calling down an airstrike or the actual airstrike could take a turn before coming down upon your foes.
Deployable cover maybe? Something that can provide you with a defensive bonus, things like force fields, gadgets that can be thrown or placed upon the ground either permanently or temporary.
4: More Aliens
Purpose: longer mission, less Alien hunting across larger maps, more action, more epicness and more strategy.
Implementation: I think this speak for itself, they possibly could use alternate tactics either hunting or defending in packs or solo, swarming you, coming from behind while keeping you busy in front. The downside is that you have to wait longer during enemy turn for them to play but most of the waiting in the current form of the game is due to alien hunting and wasting turns doing nothing but carefully moving across the map only to find them all entrenched in the same place. The idea of a small elite group of soldiers taking upon larger groups of foes should be something appealing to any gamer, I should feel cautious, afraid and overwhelmed when I’m fighting aliens. I would possibly like to see an alien dropship either land or teleport reinforcements on the field. See them use airstrike maybe? It would be important to have ways to counter and alien airstrike, once again maybe gadgets.
Possible Alien tactics
Rush: This is basically what it says, aliens attempting to push at you running straight under fire, maybe using tougher armoured units to soak damage followed by some serious firepower or melee troops.
Death line: This is a tactic I actually use with my own soldiers, the death line is basically a slow advance from 2-4 soldiers with full reaction fire standing side by side. It’s vulnerable to AoE effects but it is a great way to make a tactical push upon a position killing anything that pokes their noses where they shouldn’t.
The circle: This tactic is about swarming the opponent coming down from every side. Troops could possibly be teleported everywhere around you, requiring the player to take defensive positioning.
Death from above: Carefully laying down snipers on high positions covering the troops advancing and using scouts to spot your soldiers.
5: More armour
Purpose: While there is a nice selection of weapons, the armour selection is pretty limited, I would like to see heavier armour restricting movement for more protection or the total opposite.
Implementation, I don’t think it could be very hard to implement a few more type of armours, I can provide new textures for existing armours or provide a few concepts or futuristic looking protection, I can model alright and unwrap the texture but I have no experience implementing models in a game yet.
What I would like to see is mostly more protection at the cost of movement, something allowing a soldier to take a few shots or pushing upon an enemy position, something to use close combat or heavy weapons with, basically a slow walking juggernaught opening the way for your troops or an entrenched impenetrable wall. The movement effect should be drastic to compensate so you don’t want to outfit every soldier with this type of protection. Possibly some very heavy power armour with shoulder mounted weapons, like a railgun cannon or laser cannon, maybe a Gatling gun with an ammo box mounted on the shoulder.
Lighter Armour should be used as well, either for lightning strikes or for scouts, they should allow an increase in movement speed over heavier protection and make your troops fragile but quick on their feet. Of course at the opposite of a heavy power amour, you could have lightweight power armour accelerating the movement rate and strength of a soldier even more maybe making them efficient at rushing in melee combat. Something like power armour that isn’t thicker than a second layer of skin or clothes, it could possibly be a miniature, expensive and complex layer of exterior machinery.
More medium protection options would be nice as well, something that is the bread and butter of most soldiers in a team, unlike light or heavy armour, this provide an average ground while the others provide specialization, it would allow some serious strategic assets if a player can adapt his playstyle to the game by using a combo of armours and weapons.
I might add some more possible ideas later, or develop upon an idea if requested but I feel that 4 pages worth of text is enough for now :P
Thanks for reading and maybe considering some of theses.
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Point 4: maps can already contain more than 8 aliens now, and a future AI will make them hide less so you don't have to hunt so much.
Point 5: See the design documentation. We plan on 7 equipable suits of armour in total.
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Hey BTAxis will the armors also provide benefits beyond protection (and strength bumps)?
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The way I have it in mind, armour will have two effects:
1) Increased protection.
2) A hit to TUs. The heavier the armour, the less TUs the soldier has available every turn. Strength will serve to offset this a little.
Basically, it's a protection/speed tradeoff. There is only one exception to this setup, which is the Jumpsuit. This armour lets you travel through the air for short distances (the soldier must always end his movement on a solid surface).
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Point 4: maps can already contain more than 8 aliens now, and a future AI will make them hide less so you don't have to hunt so much.
Point 5: See the design documentation. We plan on 7 equipable suits of armour in total.
No offense but i was expecting maybe a bit more discussion around the points i brought up, im aware that there is more armors on the way but before this last post, no one had any idea what they were doing. The design notes are only found on the Wiki and contain nothing beside the name, if you were refering to the post stickied with links, they are giving out Error 404 and don't exist anymore.
As far as aliens goes, i have not really seen a single map out of my playtime that struck me as an invasion with more than 4-10 aliens. What i wanted to discuss is the possibility of seeing more of them and possibly see more troops appear on the map as you progress aka: reinforcements.
As i said as well, if you wish to know more about something just ask and i will give proper development upon the concept.
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The armour system is documented on the wiki. There's also a list of the armours we want to implement. I don't know what you were expecting, but that's the design as far as the current established plans are. What I'm outlining in this thread is fairly tentative and hasn't even been properly written up yet.
The amount of aliens is limited by two things: a time-based value and the amount of aliens allowed on agiven map. The amount of aliens you will encounter is whichever of those numbers is smaller. As for alien reinforcements, they won't feature prominently. I have plans for something like that in the final mission, but not on regular ones.
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The armour system is documented on the wiki. There's also a list of the armours we want to implement. I don't know what you were expecting, but that's the design as far as the current established plans are. What I'm outlining in this thread is fairly tentative and hasn't even been properly written up yet.
The amount of aliens is limited by two things: a time-based value and the amount of aliens allowed on agiven map. The amount of aliens you will encounter is whichever of those numbers is smaller. As for alien reinforcements, they won't feature prominently. I have plans for something like that in the final mission, but not on regular ones.
You need to help me out a bit here, im puzzled by your answers in general since they are not clear but simply dismissive.
I posted this thread as a brainstorm, the point of a brainstorm is to throw out ideas without going in specific details, it's a discussion without any boundaries. I am not expecting any of those said ideas to be part of the next release, the design should already be finished for 2.3 unless im mistaken. If the design is not finished for 2.3, i don't think we have the same definition of ''design'' because it should no longer be in design phase but production considering 2.3 is already somewhat playable.
I already wrote a fair bunch of design docs for my own stuff and i know a fair share about game design and game development in general. I have been in the modding scene for 8 years, i came here to discuss about the potential future of the development ''beyond the plans''. Being an open source development and seeing how there is a Design forum, i was expecting to maybe be pointed out in a direction where i can help. Which is why i posted this thread in the first place, to be helpful with the potential design of this game. What i am offering is potential mechanics or content for the near future unless 2.3 is meant to be the final version.
What i am actually expecting is
A) If any of the ideas provided show any sort of interest out of the design team (it can be anything, from a global idea to something like the handheld scanner mentionned).
B) If you answered yes to A, which ones, so i can start going more into details as to how it could be implemented.
C) If there is anything in the current design that need more development. Armours are oviously fitting here but if i can ask, why do they have names but no technical information, it should be the opposite, know what you want them to do first and name them after, placeholder keywords should be placed in the description at least. When they have nothing but a name, they might as well not exist at all, it would make it easier for everyone to come up with ideas.
The wiki itself is not really helpful in it's current form, it has no real structure and contains only fragments of information about the mechanics or design in general. This is mostly why i am asking here.
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It's an open-source game, yes, but that doesn't mean anyone can throw in bits of design as they please. We have quite a qualified design team, of which BTAxis is a part, and we don't take input from the forums. Everything we want for the campaign has already been considered in our own brainstorms and is being acted upon in a manner that we think will make the game as awesome as possible. That's our job in the project.
Also, upon reflection, your rant about the definition of 'design' being laid down ironclad beforehand and then yourself wanting to go 'beyond the plans' seems a bit contradictory.
Regards,
Winter
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It's an open-source game, yes, but that doesn't mean anyone can throw in bits of design as they please. We have quite a qualified design team, of which BTAxis is a part, and we don't take input from the forums. Everything we want for the campaign has already been considered in our own brainstorms and is being acted upon in a manner that we think will make the game as awesome as possible. That's our job in the project.
Also, upon reflection, your rant about the definition of 'design' being laid down ironclad beforehand and then yourself wanting to go 'beyond the plans' seems a bit contradictory.
Regards,
Winter
Thanks for the answer, i don't actually see what contradiction you saw in my words if you wish to elaborate. Let me explain my context, what i said in a nutshell is that the design for 2.3 should be done and the design for a possible 2.4 be in the work, that way when the production of 2.3 is done the team can start the production of 2.4 without having to wait on the design team or the possibility of having work going in the waste because the design changed halfway in.
It is simply a time efficient method of developping something. In no mean do i meant to sound like a jerk or insultive so don't take my words in the wrong way, i know im a nobody poking my nose in this since i have not contributed to anything, but design should be the first step before production and done before the production start. Sure, you can add a thing or two that were not planned there and there as the production goes on but it should be layed down so the production team already know exactly what needs to be done. If you say ok we are making armours, we don't know what yet but start moddeling and texturing armours! How is the production team supposed to know what you have in mind? It is frustrating for a modeller and texturer when suddenly his work no longer fit in the game and is dumped because there was a lack of information or lack of communication.
What i said by going beyond the plan refered to a possibility of seeing a 2.4 or another release after 2,3, it is already far too late for someone like me to take part in 2.3 as it should be layered out so i aimed to suggest a few things for the near future aka: 2.4 or whatever is coming after 2.3. I don't think there is any harm in that is there? I merely gave out some ideas, which your team is free to dismiss or wish to see elaborated but i would at least like some sort of feedback on it. You must understand it took time to write all this stuff up simply to be somewhat ignored and dismissed as if my first post was not even read at all.
In any case, it does seem a bit silly to have a forum section dedicated for design opened to the public but taking nothing from it. What is the purpose of said forum? Don't get me wrong but it is confusing.
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In essence this forum is a relic from the early days of UFO:AI, when things were still in a very fluid state, nowhere near as crystallized as it is now. I'll change its description to something more in line with that; I can see how people might get the wrong impression.
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Well, a lot of these kind of discussion could be avoided if you would simply release your documentation of the design concept to the public.
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It's not closed to the public. It's all on the wiki. If it's not there, we basically don't have it ("it" being the documentation).
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There is a saying in product management: if it is not documented it does not exist.
The wiki is incomplete in places and seems dated in others.
So you are pretty much developing out of the blue of your heads?
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I don't know what you're talking about. We have articles about game features, items and vehicles, the UFOPaedia and an overview of the storyline. It's true that the whole story hasn't been written yet, and the "whole" game hasn't been documented or fully designed yet, but that's just how it works. We didn't sit down and design the whole game before writing a single line of code. The project evolves as it goes along. If you want to call that "developing out of the blue of our heads", so be it, but that's not how I perceive it. We have some very clear ideas on the direction we want to take, even if it's not written down.
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Hi BTAxis,
I'd find it quite sad if there'd be really no chance of letting user feedback come to further development. :(
May be the gamer could have really good ideas to make the game even better or alternatively point out some improvements which could make coding easier and so on...
But you sound to me as if this has been discussed more than once already? Could you tell me where I can find it, so I can get a better understanding for that decision?
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It happens again and again that someone makes some suggestions, often enough to fill in some blank spaces in the wiki or to redefine unclear passages, and you answer that they shouldn't bother, because it is already decided.
It appears (at least to me) that a lot of important information is passed between you Mattn and Winter, that is not as readily available to everyone else.
If you want to do the project alone that might be fine, but as it is now a lot of people, who just want to help get constantly rebuffed and more often than not, in quite a rude way.
The way you are answer sometimes, I wonder why you bother answering at all. (and I noticed I'm not alone there)
If you don't need or don't want to bother with certain kind of input you should take the time an remove the parts from the forum and the wiki that are not relevant anymore. And maybe add those parts that you agreed upon in thought, but haven't yet written down.
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Sad to say but I agree with the post above me.
But lets be constructive, not destructive. I invite all that want to brainstorm into the MOD section were developers only saying is how we can abuse what they have created :>
Lets not fight over how the game is done till it is done and we like it. I know from experience that to much documentation can drown a project :/ Plus, some ppl do such things like this one for free as they do not have to obey anyone, any time schedule, any strict rules of management. It is their free time.
This is an open source project but, like BTAxis pointed out, this doesn't mean this project belongs to the community. We all can copy the project source files and start our own 'branch' elsewhere. This is guaranteed by the license. The license however doesn't force the dev team to implement anything that they do not want, it is their project and we have to take this with all their good and bad implementations [not saying that there are any bad implementations,...hmm, maybe beside my MOD changes ;)]
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It happens again and again that someone makes some suggestions, often enough to fill in some blank spaces in the wiki or to redefine unclear passages, and you answer that they shouldn't bother, because it is already decided.
It appears (at least to me) that a lot of important information is passed between you Mattn and Winter, that is not as readily available to everyone else.
If you want to do the project alone that might be fine, but as it is now a lot of people, who just want to help get constantly rebuffed and more often than not, in quite a rude way.
The way you are answer sometimes, I wonder why you bother answering at all. (and I noticed I'm not alone there)
If you don't need or don't want to bother with certain kind of input you should take the time an remove the parts from the forum and the wiki that are not relevant anymore. And maybe add those parts that you agreed upon in thought, but haven't yet written down.
You quite possibly have a point, but it seems to me you (and many others) fail to recognize the position one is in as a developer. Everything you do is subject to feedback, and you quite simply can't go into involving discussions with everyone who "wants to help", which is all too often the same as "offer suggestions", which is the same as "I can't do anything except talk about stuff". Removing parts of the forum isn't going to help, either. This kind of input will just keep coming anyway, and besides we are trying to attract people who can contribute in a real way. So that's why sometimes we have to put it in no unclear terms that the game isn't made by the community.
As for the documentation, I already said that it grows as we make the game. Raw ideas aren't written down on the wiki. Why would they be? Doing it like that would constitute much needless overhead. Ideas come up and are shot down all the time. Forums or the wiki aren't practical for this, so it happens on IRC. There are logs of this, feel free to read them.
If the way we run our project and the way information is made available really bothers you, find me in the IRC channel and we can talk about how you can help to improve this.
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Good for you man!
I for one am grateful that I get to play a cool successor of x-com FOR FREE. Thats why I even bother to participate in the forums in the first place. I like the fact that Winter and BTAxis are kinda rude, I think it weeds out the emo people.
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Well considering how this seem to be a mature enough place to discuss, i will throw what i really think so far without being afraid of making someone butthurt. I'll give this as friendly advice.
Your position as a developer is to point us out (those who wish to help) where you need help.
It's fine that you choose to restrict design and major development for the team already working on the game and im cool with it, it's your choice. But you guys have real problems if you design out of the blue as stated. It's one of the major reason there is almost no ''people who contribute''. How the hell do you want people to contribute when all you do is push them away, refuse to give them a direction at which they can help and have literally NO design planned, it's all in your own heads but we're not in your heads. Might work if you are developping a project alone but if you want to draw people in you seriously need to give them concrete information. I find really silly the fact you would turn away help when you can't even complete your own stuff. I told this before but if your design is nothing but a name, you might as well scrap it because there is no purpose to it. If you read my first post again, i offered help with design, concept art, texturing and potentially modelling yet received no answer. Guys, where is the leadership in this Dev team? You need help yet im ignored, to be honest i think i see where this is heading and frankly, im feeling like it's not worth my time anymore.
I had my share of ''game projects'' who failed when i joined as a texturer and concept artist, why? Poor Leadership and poor design, when no one has any idea of what you want, how can they do something? If you don't point them out at something, they will leave or ignore you. I know for a fact that if you can't offer me solid design with information, i won't be modelling or texturing out something of my bottom so it can ''possibly'' interest you. If i model something or texture i don't want to waste my time. Modellers and texturers are one of the easiest thing to find. Considering how low poly this game is, almost anyone with basic modelling skills can contribute so it's not exactly a technical challenge to find artists. Any project i ever been part of and failed miserably had modellers and texturers yet no offense but i can hear crickets in your Artwork section. Give us real design and you will see people willing to contribute, so far the wiki is a piss poor way to express what you want when you don't even release complete information or keep it up to date.
Just an example, you have stats in the game. There is mention of strength affecting some equipment yet i never ever found how it affect them. There is mention of encumbrance but how does it work? How do i know when im encumbered? The stats in general don't even have an ingame description of what they do.
Another example is the particle weapons, they don't even follow the same structure as other weapons ingame, you can't even see what they really do and what skill they take because the only information displayed is the numbers of shot left in the weapon and a small description of how the weapon is made.
Again i don't want to be a jerk but seriously, why not simply make a structure to follow when your team is working on design, it takes literally 2 min and make sure everything are related. I know im a freaking nobody in this project but what im offering here is a piece of friendly advice that will simplify your life and those of your potential contributors in the near future. By having a structure you at least introduce the basic information you need ingame and the information to be provided when you design a new thing. All you need is Word, or if you have the proper softwares, create a .PDF out of the whole conception and pass it down to everyone on the team. That's how the designers work in industry and it is that way because it is an efficient way to communicate with everyone without having to pull meetings all the time and put everyone on equal ground. I seriously want this game to progress as i love it but i think it's a shame you are crippling yourselves that way. Hell if you guys are willing to start using structures i can even start pulling out every information on the wiki, start structuring it for you and hand you the whole thing in a bunch of nice pdf. The point is, you should have at least some design docs.
I might be a nobody in this place but i know how design work, i already wrote my own designs and they go around 40-50 pages in length just to give you an idea and those are just the basics.
That is a simple example of how you can establish a simple structure to follow for weapon design. Take the advice or not but trust me when i say you will hardly find anyone willing to contribute if you aren't providing them with any sort of organisation.
Weapon name
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Weapon Description
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Weight and required str
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Weapon Damage Type
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Type of ammo that can be loaded
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Numbers of shots
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Skills used and possible actions
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Your position as a developer is to point us out (those who wish to help) where you need help.
It's fine that you choose to restrict design and major development for the team already working on the game and im cool with it, it's your choice. But you guys have real problems if you design out of the blue as stated. It's one of the major reason there is almost no ''people who contribute''. How the hell do you want people to contribute when all you do is push them away, refuse to give them a direction at which they can help and have literally NO design planned, it's all in your own heads but we're not in your heads. Might work if you are developping a project alone but if you want to draw people in you seriously need to give them concrete information. I find really silly the fact you would turn away help when you can't even complete your own stuff. I told this before but if your design is nothing but a name, you might as well scrap it because there is no purpose to it. If you read my first post again, i offered help with design, concept art, texturing and potentially modelling yet received no answer. Guys, where is the leadership in this Dev team? You need help yet im ignored, to be honest i think i see where this is heading and frankly, im feeling like it's not worth my time anymore.
I call shenanigans on this. We have quite comprehensible lists of where we need help. We have requests for 2D art, models and maps in the artwork section. For coders, there is a list of features to implement on the TODO, as well as on the Proposals section on the wiki. Hell, people can even come up with stuff we didn't ask for, and we'd be happy to use it, testament Sitters' contributions in the past.
If you think the developers don't specify what they want from contributors, then that's because you haven't looked.
I had my share of ''game projects'' who failed when i joined as a texturer and concept artist, why? Poor Leadership and poor design, when no one has any idea of what you want, how can they do something? If you don't point them out at something, they will leave or ignore you. I know for a fact that if you can't offer me solid design with information, i won't be modelling or texturing out something of my bottom so it can ''possibly'' interest you. If i model something or texture i don't want to waste my time. Modellers and texturers are one of the easiest thing to find. Considering how low poly this game is, almost anyone with basic modelling skills can contribute so it's not exactly a technical challenge to find artists. Any project i ever been part of and failed miserably had modellers and texturers yet no offense but i can hear crickets in your Artwork section. Give us real design and you will see people willing to contribute, so far the wiki is a piss poor way to express what you want when you don't even release complete information or keep it up to date.
Now I'm beginning to really suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Not a challenge to find artists? Capital. Then, given the aforementioned existing lists of stuff we need, I cordially invite you to find us some artists. Seriously. We'd be grateful.
Just an example, you have stats in the game. There is mention of strength affecting some equipment yet i never ever found how it affect them. There is mention of encumbrance but how does it work? How do i know when im encumbered? The stats in general don't even have an ingame description of what they do.
There is currently no encumbrance in the game. I only described what I had in mind - not what was in the game! As for the exact effects of the weapon stats, it's basically just accuracy. I see no point documenting this in the game. The higher the stat, the better the soldier is at that weapon. How hard can it be?
Another example is the particle weapons, they don't even follow the same structure as other weapons ingame, you can't even see what they really do and what skill they take because the only information displayed is the numbers of shot left in the weapon and a small description of how the weapon is made.
The only difference between the PBWs and other weapons is that you have to research the ammo separately, and that you can't produce that ammo. The rest of your claims are bull.
Again i don't want to be a jerk but seriously, why not simply make a structure to follow when your team is working on design, it takes literally 2 min and make sure everything are related. I know im a freaking nobody in this project but what im offering here is a piece of friendly advice that will simplify your life and those of your potential contributors in the near future. By having a structure you at least introduce the basic information you need ingame and the information to be provided when you design a new thing. All you need is Word, or if you have the proper softwares, create a .PDF out of the whole conception and pass it down to everyone on the team. That's how the designers work in industry and it is that way because it is an efficient way to communicate with everyone without having to pull meetings all the time and put everyone on equal ground. I seriously want this game to progress as i love it but i think it's a shame you are crippling yourselves that way. Hell if you guys are willing to start using structures i can even start pulling out every information on the wiki, start structuring it for you and hand you the whole thing in a bunch of nice pdf. The point is, you should have at least some design docs.
Okay, I'll admit I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say with this last part, so maybe I'm missing the point here, but what you describe sounds like something we don't need. We're not some big corporation with 500 members that needs memos and distributed design. We're making a game, everyone knows what the game is about, and some people know more about some parts than others. As for the shape of the "final" product, we make that up as we go along, as I said. You say we're crippling ourselves, but I beg to differ. It's precisely the overdone beaurocracy you're suggesting that would choke the project to death.
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I call shenanigans on this. We have quite comprehensible lists of where we need help. We have requests for 2D art, models and maps in the artwork section. For coders, there is a list of features to implement on the TODO, as well as on the Proposals section on the wiki. Hell, people can even come up with stuff we didn't ask for, and we'd be happy to use it, testament Sitters' contributions in the past.
Im the one calling shenanigans on it. This is from the NEEDED MODELS post in the Artwork forum. It would seem like the proper place to look right? But this is how up to date it is.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 10:39:54 PM by Winter »
From the Armour types and their models - PHALANX
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 08:20:46 AM by Mattn »
The only topic up to date is the UFOPaedia images, the wiki and TODO list is listing some of the stuff as WIP since 2007, some of the requests are seriously lacking information.
If you think the developers don't specify what they want from contributors, then that's because you haven't looked.
That's exactly what im ranting about. Where should i be looking when there is outdated and incomplete information everywhere, why should i have to look and find it across the pile of stuff in the first place? It's extremely confusing for absolutely nothing. Why is it not simply organized in a simple way in a single place and updated frequently? I think it's time you guys do some serious cleanage with both the forums and the Wiki because for any newcomers, it's extremely confusing to know where to look for accurate information as to what needs to be done.
Now I'm beginning to really suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Not a challenge to find artists? Capital. Then, given the aforementioned existing lists of stuff we need, I cordially invite you to find us some artists. Seriously. We'd be grateful.
I can point you out ways to gather artists, you know they won't magically appear in your face, you have to look for them. Simple way, start advertising and sending private messages, you already have solid and playable material, it's extremely attracting to anyone practicing their skills. There is talent everywhere just waiting for such propositions, this is the project leader job to find the ressources he need. Two example really quick, just search a bit for communities.
Newgrounds.com
A community focussing on Flash development both in game and animation, there is coders, artists, voice actors and musicians in there.
Here is a thread containing work from various 3d artists from all skill level. http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/693236
Another pool of talent, http://forums.cgsociety.org/
Its a forum dedicated to modelling, animating and texturing, what else could you ask for? If you feel like it, attempt to enter in contact with the owners and try to get your project advertised for a modelling competition or something. As i said you have the playable material, go for it and exploit it.
Just with those two, you should have plenty of potential recruits. Those places are training grounds buddy, the talent is all over the place and it's just asking for projects like this. It gives the artists the practice they need, the application of their models in a game (which is good if they want to get in the industry) and the motivation to keep practicing their skills.
There is currently no encumbrance in the game. I only described what I had in mind - not what was in the game! As for the exact effects of the weapon stats, it's basically just accuracy. I see no point documenting this in the game. The higher the stat, the better the soldier is at that weapon. How hard can it be?
Once again it's kinda confusing because ingame, some weapons make reference at needing specialized equipment or requires strength but can be equipped. I don't know but when a piece of equipment is saying in the description ''assuming they can lift it'', the gamer is making immediately the link with strength. You know it kind of make you wonder what the hell is the point of strength in the first place from a gamer perspective. When i meant Stats, im not talking about Close, Assault, Explosives and weapon stats but the attributes, you know, speed, strength, mind. Unless you look at the wiki, you have no clue what they are really used for, why? They have no description in game, it's not documented anywhere, it's not even in the Ufopedia. You have to put yourself in the gamer skin there, seriously not everyone is going to look up the wiki and start digging information.
The only difference between the PBWs and other weapons is that you have to research the ammo separately, and that you can't produce that ammo. The rest of your claims are bull.
A load of bull? This call for screenshots, unless you never played your own game you can see what im speaking about here. One has no stats or description but can be used in combat and the other has every info needed. Also don't get me wrong but damage type would be a nice addition to the information of weapons. Im talking about the relation it has with the armours protection, i know you can guess what is what but in the case of some weapons like the Bolt Rifle, it's not exactly clear and is different ammoes changing the damage type? aka: plasma grenades vs normal grenades
http://img15.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=ufo1v.jpg
Okay, I'll admit I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say with this last part, so maybe I'm missing the point here, but what you describe sounds like something we don't need. We're not some big corporation with 500 members that needs memos and distributed design. We're making a game, everyone knows what the game is about, and some people know more about some parts than others. As for the shape of the "final" product, we make that up as we go along, as I said. You say we're crippling ourselves, but I beg to differ. It's precisely the overdone beaurocracy you're suggesting that would choke the project to death.
You are not a big corporation, you are a dev team relying on the help of others, if anything that just prove my point even more. A dev team of average size is maybe 50 people within a ''big corporation'' and requires organisation to keep everything flowing and make sure everyone is headed in the same direction. Here it is, how do you communicate your vision to those who are not currently part of your small team? The answer: you can't because you have zero documents or structure for the newcomers. That is alarming, why? Because the team as it is will not be eternal, people leave and people join, you need to leave some vestige behind for others to keep up. You see where i am going with this? If you fail to see the problem in that, i don't know what to tell you. Not having design documents = bad design, pure and simple. Its not bureaucracy, it's called a structure, a basic layout that anyone can at first sight know what the hell it is about and where they are going. You need simplicity, which is found in a basic structure that everyone can quickly identify. From my own experience, it's what you are doing that chokes projects to death, the only sucess i had was when i had a very clear focus, organisation and direction. Your methods scares any potential recruits away since whenever they want precise information they need to run up to you and ask about it or dig up the mess that is the wiki and forum. I challenge you to ask on any board about game design if developping within your head as you go on with a team around you is a good idea. Professionals and amateurs alike will tell you that you need some sort of documentation.
In any case, i don't think there is any point arguing with this anymore since your position seems to be what it is and won't change no matter what arguments i may bring to the table.
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Your methods scares any potential recruits away since whenever they want precise information they need to run up to you and ask about it or dig up the mess that is the wiki and forum.
And how would your 50 pages pdfs not scare ppl away then? Some ppl like it short and simple were everything can change if the tests go wrong.
Attitude of some replays is one thing, but bi***ing about the way a project is run is another. The project it self is a proof that you are wrong Saboera. Your words would make sense if the project was in a stop but it is updated pretty often, new features pop up like shrooms after rain. If you do not like the paste and the documentation then it is simply not a project for you.
I was pretty amazed when I visited the wiki for the first time. For me the documentation is good and I had no problems finding the 'to do' lists and 'how you can contribute' sections. Maybe you just have problems with reading, between the lines that is.
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Sigh. Well, I'll keep this short, since this discussion is fruitless. Saboera, you're basically wrong on all counts (except the last one), and you make accusations based on very old builds of the game, and some timestamps (just because something was edited more than a year ago doesn't mean it's outdated!). Nothing I say will change your idea that we're a band of blustering idiots who can't do anything right, so I'm just going to let you sit there and think that. In the mean time, you can try to put your money where your mouth is and document the existing game in whatever way you see fit. But you won't, will you?
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Everything you do is subject to feedback, and you quite simply can't go into involving discussions with everyone who "wants to help", which is all too often the same as "offer suggestions", which is the same as "I can't do anything except talk about stuff".
Have you considered an idea of employing a sort of PR man? Maybe one from those who cannot do anything except talking, but is mature ans sane enough to filter useless ideas, has good nerves and has lots of time to spend online? So that other devs would mind their own business, while users are provided with a polite feedback for all sorts of questions, e.g.: "Saving in combat? Thanks for suggestion, but after some consideration we decided to wait with implementing such. Lightsabers? What a wonderful idea! Sadly, it doesn't fit with the setting."
P.S. I'm NOT a volunteer!
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And how would your 50 pages pdfs not scare ppl away then? Some ppl like it short and simple were everything can change if the tests go wrong.
Attitude of some replays is one thing, but bi***ing about the way a project is run is another. The project it self is a proof that you are wrong Saboera. Your words would make sense if the project was in a stop but it is updated pretty often, new features pop up like shrooms after rain. If you do not like the paste and the documentation then it is simply not a project for you.
I was pretty amazed when I visited the wiki for the first time. For me the documentation is good and I had no problems finding the 'to do' lists and 'how you can contribute' sections. Maybe you just have problems with reading, between the lines that is.
Do you seriously think a document of 50 pages does not contain any sort of subsections? It contains precise and quick information to look at, you go to whatever is in your interests. If you are interested in characters, you take a look in the table, see where your section is located page 31-38, read what you have to.
And yes, ''reading between the lines'' is an extremely efficient way to find precised information right?
I actually found out it wasn't a project for me the instant i was answered in a cheap and dismissive way. It seems clear to me that the original team is no longer around and only a bunch of veterans are left, keeping this rolling mostly because of their friendship with each others. There is no way this project has gotten this far with the current philosophy of the current team. What i did is give constructive critiscism, advice and possible solutions, yet i was dismissed again and again and again. They won't find help if they can't even help themselves. You don't build a house without blueprints and im not a programmer because i declare myself to be a programmer.
Sigh. Well, I'll keep this short, since this discussion is fruitless. Saboera, you're basically wrong on all counts (except the last one), and you make accusations based on very old builds of the game, and some timestamps (just because something was edited more than a year ago doesn't mean it's outdated!). Nothing I say will change your idea that we're a band of blustering idiots who can't do anything right, so I'm just going to let you sit there and think that. In the mean time, you can try to put your money where your mouth is and document the existing game in whatever way you see fit. But you won't, will you?
I never said you were idiots, you are a bunch of guys quite capable in your respective areas. But somehow i give you the truth which is like a slap in the face to bring you back on earth and you dismiss everything has if it never happened. Keep floating in your imaginary world if it's your wish because im done after this post. Your counter arguments have simply proven everything i said so far.
Im warning you, this next bit is insulting.
So in summary, you sit there in your forum, waiting for people to contribute. When they show up, you dismiss them or point them out at the wiki and outdated threads because saying ''oh we need this, can you do that?'' is too freaking hard. Your design is in your head and it's gonna stay that way, you would rather send any artist back on the drawing board because their contribution didn't match the vision you had in your head than take 2 minutes to come up with some form of written documentation (that my friend is lazyness). Then you proceed to tell me ''finding artists is hard! boo hoo hoo!'' and you don't question yourself why or consider that the problem might not be coming from the lack of artists but your methods. The fact that you have 1 years old TODO stuff is a proof that no one is willing to work with you or have no clues this even exist, as i said the ressources you need won't pop in your face. I even provided you links to start at yet you ignored them and again dismissed it. How did you even got started in this project? Someone recruited you or advertised their project and you took interest, you didn't magically appear and started helping.
As for the old build excuses, it's your job as a designer to freaking make sure the game is polished for a release, don't come and tell me ''oh im sorry, we're still in development and what you played is a old build'' Old build that is the last release thank you, it should be polished and stable unless you take pleasure in releasing incomplete stuff. The timestamp should be an indication that no one is interested into it no? Maybe it would be time to rethink it and give out new info but again i guess it's alright, in 5 years maybe someone will show up and do it. What piss me off in all this is your attitude, i already offered to document everything and i asked you if i do it, will you use it? If i am to work on something i want results, i don't want a ''maybe'', im not a retard and i came here offering something for free as long as you are willing to take it and communicate with me. You never got to the communication part because you did nothing but dismissing everything i said ever since the first post.
I guess i missed the part where this was a private party when i registered to offer help. It looks like we are not worth your attention and you like to masturbate your ego dismissing everyone willing to help or giving feedback. It's not only me, it's a common trend. Im sorry that i can't be part of your small elite team because you refuse to speak with us, lowly newcomers.
Have you considered an idea of employing a sort of PR man? Maybe one from those who cannot do anything except talking, but is mature ans sane enough to filter useless ideas, has good nerves and has lots of time to spend online? So that other devs would mind their own business, while users are provided with a polite feedback for all sorts of questions, e.g.: "Saving in combat? Thanks for suggestion, but after some consideration we decided to wait with implementing such. Lightsabers? What a wonderful idea! Sadly, it doesn't fit with the setting."
P.S. I'm NOT a volunteer!
That is a great suggestion and should seriously be at the very least taken in consideration.
In any case, what i gave is critiscism and suggestions, if you are somewhat angered by them im sorry but im sure many think the same yet don't dare saying the real words. I offered help and was dismissed, i don't intend to waste time running after you or kneeling. Take care and good luck with the future development of the game.
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Saboera I have to thank you, you said a lot of what I wanted to say, but never found the right words for. If that doesn't wake him up, nothing will.
@BTAxis: You said sometime that you feel like 2.3 should have been out a long time ago, but you didn't manage so far and you can't even guess when it will be.
Saboera gave you a reason Why.
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DuKe2112, do not over exaggerate. Saboera had some points but his attitude is completely wrong. There are more ways to run a project and if it is not the way 'you' like it you should not try and force ppl on the only and righteous path of documenting every step.
Maybe this project would use a road map, a feature list for each release and some organisation in wiki sections. But, you can not do it by a revolution, it has to be evolutionary: Stay with the project, know its formal and informal relations, contribute some and see the response, feedback, propose changes and see it they fit in the whole picture.
Every one can have a bad day, every one can misunderstand a sentence, things happen. Posting a biach post about how they 'mistreated me when I wanted to help' is not something anyone can tolerate.
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2.3 should have been out long ago, yes, but that's not for lack of design. We know exactly what we want for 2.3. It's on the TODO. I've read it, and I don't think it's that unclear. It certainly shouldn't scare away anyone.
I've said before that you can come talk to me if you think you can improve our documentation, and that offer stands. It's easy to bitch on a forum about how badly run you think our project is. Why don't you try REALLY doing something about it?
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2.3 should have been out long ago, yes, but that's not for lack of design. We know exactly what we want for 2.3. It's on the TODO. I've read it, and I don't think it's that unclear. It certainly shouldn't scare away anyone.
I've said before that you can come talk to me if you think you can improve our documentation, and that offer stands. It's easy to bitch on a forum about how badly run you think our project is. Why don't you try REALLY doing something about it?
My offer still stand, ill do it assuming as i said that you are willing to let me help and will make use of it. Leave me a simple yes in here and ill get on it and come back later this week with it. I don't really see what there is to discuss but if you want to know more, send me your info via private message so i can either add you on msn or aim. I don't currently use any other chat system. Alternatively, you can ask me any question you want to know either here or in a message.
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Okay, sounds good. I'm on MSN, ICQ and Jabber. Info here (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/User:BTAxis). Forum PM works too.
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Okay, sounds good. I'm on MSN, ICQ and Jabber. Info here (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/User:BTAxis). Forum PM works too.
What are your usual disponibility? Im working right now and posted during small breaks so i can't really go in dept with everything for now because i have stuff to finish but we can appoint something tommorow or later tonight? Or as i said, just ask me your question in PM and ill answer everything when i have the time to.
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I'm GMT +1. I don't have a real schedule, but I'm usually at my PC in the mornings and in the evenings. It shouldn't be too hard to catch me.
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Yeah Ok I haven't been very clear, again. (that seems almost customary with me lately -,-)
My last statement wasn't so much about the documentation/design part. I agree that one shouldn't overdo it, but one shouldn't underdo it either. All I wanted to say is that it might not have been optimal, but gladly that's now dealt with and this discussion should be done.
What I really meant was the part about general attitude, that can scotch any help.
Surely one can have a bad day, but not regularly and it only means that you have to be especially carefull about what you do and say and maybe say nothing at all.
I'm probably not a good example in that case myself, but I at least admit it and try to adjust.
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Implementation: The way I would see this is that you can create squads of X men (subjective number). This would make it easier to hire/unhire and affect a squad of soldiers to a dropship rather than scrolling across the list of potential soldiers.
Jagged Alliance 2 allowed you to group your mercs into squads. Made management much easier. Not sure about the "leader" bonuses stuff. Maybe a "Leadership" stat (again, copied from JA2, though it was used differently in that game)?
2: Cryo weapons? Support Weapons?
Purpose: Those weapons could be use as lethal force but their main role is to support teammates or fill specific roles.
As you said, it's not much different than the flamethrower. Except for the TU-reduction aspect, which can already be done using flashbangs.
3: More non-combat items requiring to be used
Purpose: Allowing scouting and giving a nice range of combos with one handed weapons such as pistols.
JA2 and Silent Storm also have "sneaking" skills, IIRC. Neat idea, but would require a lot of work.
4: More Aliens
Purpose: longer mission, less Alien hunting across larger maps, more action, more epicness and more strategy.
The reinforcements idea is neat. The other stuff is kind of questionable. Certainly, there are strategy games were you can assign unit formations (Homeworld), but I'm not sure it's appropriate here. I guess it would be up to the AI scripters, but it sounds like a lot of work.
5: More armour
Purpose: While there is a nice selection of weapons, the armour selection is pretty limited, I would like to see heavier armour restricting movement for more protection or the total opposite.
Not sure if more stuff is needed. Anyway, it's something modders can do quite easily.