UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Design => Topic started by: baybal on March 08, 2009, 04:23:24 am
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What about that? It would burn enemies by burning the air itself with extreme temperatures of plasma.
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This reminds me of the real world weapons post. I think it is a cool idea to be able to get an advanced version of the flame thrower, in RL these weapons change chemicals use as more effective ones come out. Whether or not that manifests into a plasma thrower who knows.
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I think "Plasma throwing" is better than "burning the air itself", as burning the air would ignite the rest of the air. Oxygen has a tendancy to do that, ya know.
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Only problem is there is another psot in the real world weaponry (i think it is called) stating that there would be issues being in close proximity to plasma...*shrugs*
I just don't see the point, i'd rather see a rapid fire plasma blaster...oh wait they have those already. I am a fan of having the research tree include advanced versions of weapons such as ammo for rifles etc (not my idea). the problem would be that, as the dev's have pointed out....how can I put this...they do not want the player to only be able to use earthling weapons such as ARs and SMGs with the same efficacy throughout the entire campaign.
But with regards to the flamethrower...I could see there being an advanced version of it using some new fuel (plasma or otherwise) that has been gleaned from the aliens through research.
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It's termodynamicaly impossible. Air isn't so dense matter to ignite by nitrogen-oxygen reaction at natural pressure.
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A question to the developer team: Is it hard to add a new equipment to the game?
I mean, would it be hard to just copy/clone an equipment in the game using proxy models from the old weapons?
If it is only an ufo file change and not any real C code manipulation then could someone write a short tutorial for that?
Maybe there is something like tha tin the wiki?
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I think, for a new weapon, you need
* a model
* item definitions (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/UFO-Scripts/weapon_%2A.ufo)
* tech definitions (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/UFO-Scripts/research.ufo) for them
Check our Scripting (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Scripting) article for more info.
-geever
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and maybe new particles....
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You can actually do quite a bit now with just the .ufo files without touching the C code. I once played around with just the .ufo files and was able to add special versions of existing weapons, including a repeat-fire rocket launcher that I thought turned out very impressive. (I didn't upload it anywhere though, so don't bother searching for it.)
I was actually planning on releasing the package as an example MOD for people to play with, complete with details on how it was done, although I never got around to finishing it...
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You can actually do quite a bit now with just the .ufo files without touching the C code. I once played around with just the .ufo files and was able to add special versions of existing weapons, including a repeat-fire rocket launcher that I thought turned out very impressive. (I didn't upload it anywhere though, so don't bother searching for it.)
I was actually planning on releasing the package as an example MOD for people to play with, complete with details on how it was done, although I never got around to finishing it...
That is exactly what I was planning to do.
Now I have to make a request. Could we get a MOD subforum for such things?
Having such a forum for moders would have many advantages:
- You get a lot of requests and most of them are answered with plain 'No' or 'do it your self' - now you would only redirect that person to the MOD subforum
- it was mentioned in another topic, and I agree totally with it, that the dev team should focus on developing the framework, that means the game interfaces, phisicks, geoscope mechanics and battlescope, less focus on detail design and balancing as that will come later - for now inventing new stuff should be left for the fans [you could take what you want, disregard the rest]
- mods add variety, variety increases interest in the game, not to mention that is would be a wonderful playground for ideas
[hmmm, should I create a diffrent thread for this request]
Back to topic: I was thinking about creating a Mark II versions of the earth weapons that use the same models and projectiles. This would only require txt changes, later maybe I can go into tweaking some models but that will require learning some 3D.
As some suggested it would be cool to have a Mk. II Sniper rifle after researching the Kerblade [and Alien Armour]. The Plasma flamethrower mentioned in this topic is also interesting [after researching plasma wepons].
If everything will work as I plan then I have some ideas about tweaking the research tree.
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Mk II weapons would be cool. Expanded ammo selection would be even cooler. Expanded shells for grenade launcher, rocket launcher and shotguns should keep these weapons useful for much of the IMHO.
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Note that human weapons are SUPPOSED to be obsoleted by alien weaponry. Such expansions have been suggested (and rejected) before. Of course, it'd be perfectly fine to make a mod to that effect, but it won't be for the stock game.
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I understand this is your guys' baby so there is no point in comparing it to other settings...after all it would basically be apples and oranges anyway.
I think this and the armed civilian idea would be great for mods (as you have pointed out before).
I cannot ask you which weapons obsolete which because as has been mentioned before the balancing of weapons (and therefore the obsolescence) will not truly occur until the game is completed.
EDIT: A route you could take for a mod or the base game is to allow expanded human weaponry options and increase the lag time of researching alien ones. I understand it is a game, your game, but it is a little cliche being able to understand alien weapons within a month of capturing them. Being able to have several active research projects at the same time would be cool. PHALANX would have their own Area 51 (in addition to UFO Yard {great idea btw}) dedicated strictly to long term research of alien equipment...perhaps not all just maybe the weapons and gear...autopsy/biopsy easy *evil grin*
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Back to topic: I was thinking about creating a Mark II versions of the earth weapons that use the same models and projectiles. This would only require txt changes, later maybe I can go into tweaking some models but that will require learning some 3D.
As some suggested it would be cool to have a Mk. II Sniper rifle after researching the Kerblade [and Alien Armour]. The Plasma flamethrower mentioned in this topic is also interesting [after researching plasma wepons].
This is almost exactly what the example MOD I partially finished does. I didn't have the patience to create new models, so I played around and made advanced, improved versions of existing things, as well as advanced experimental (non-applied)* research-able things.
I made anti-matter and plasma warheads for aircraft weapons to improved armor and Earth-based weaponry.
*When I say this, I mean "applied" to refer to actual tangible things that can be produced (like an advanced shotgun), and "experimental" to refer to a technology that allows applied technologies (such as "advanced gunpowder weaponry").
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I like where this discussion is going. The rapid fire rocket launcher sounds especially amusing!
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I like where this discussion is going. The rapid fire rocket launcher sounds especially amusing!
I agree (to both of those last sentences, the second of which turned out to be true when I did testing).
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It would be scary to see how tough the aliens would have to be to keep things balanced with all sorts of rockets, grenades and razor flechettes flying all over the place.
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Yes the MOD I put together did un-balance the game quite thoroughly, especially when I tested a "shotgun mass rocket launcher" which was friggin' nasty! I didn't have the guts to try a "full-auto machinegun rocket launcher" though.
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But try to get your self in the minds of the command when you would face an enemy as fierce and with superior guns as the aliens at the beginning of the game. Unleas you use a really deadly weapon you can not be sure to kill the unknown. I would even immagine that the first alien encounters would look like: aliens spotted and identified as, well, aliens->first squad is send to stop them and is massacred, all cautch on video [a shoulder camera on each squad member] => next alien sighting -> carpet bombing the area, tell the civilians about a terrorist attack and pray that some of the alien technology survived that we can study and make new armour, guns to have at least slight chance in a squad encounter =>next alien sighting -> our guys with better weapons go in but chopters with rockets and a lot of 'safe' weapons are taken ['safe' means a weapon that does not put your soldiers in unnecesary risk, it is better to raze a building when you suspect that there is an alien than go in and risk a close encounter]
Of course this kind of thinking would go against the idea behind this game and I hope it wont ever be implemented. [also this kind of thinking applies to the first encounters, we can assume that his part is behind us and Phalanx is the child of those cruel times]
Note that human weapons are SUPPOSED to be obsoleted by alien weaponry.
I can not agree with this however. At first the alien weapons should be superior but then after we put the pieces together, know more about the threat, then we can prepare our self better. I think that the earth's only chance and its advantage is that humans are very creative in comparance of the 'hive mind' of the aliens that are driven only by the basic instinct of the virus. I mean that the virus in it self has a very low learning ability, it simply has no imagination and has to thrive on the base knowledge of the species it infected. I would think that is the main reason that it tries to infect earth and not just carpet bomb it with plasma and take its resources. It needs humans more for their knowledge than their resources. Humans having alien technology in their hands and a kernblade put to their throat should later in the game invent more advanced weapons that outmatch alien weapons. The same case is with the aircrafts. The only advantage that the alien will/should always have it the number and later in the game I would love to see a 3,4,5 :1 ratio against human squad. [especially in the human raids on alien facilities]
[another oftopic, sorry for that, maybe split it?]
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how about you geniuses test fire the 'plasma flame thrower' and ill stand 1000 meters away with my buddies and some binoculars and we'll laugh when you melt :-)
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Heh this discussion isn't really about plasma anymore DP.
What is your opinion about MKII weapons?
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What is your opinion about MKII weapons?
The machine gun should be obsolete-able by the xaw95 Gatling Gun in the equipment gallery.
Edit: Researchable add-ons/upgrades for equipment like scopes, new ammunition, & such would also be nice if unfeasible.
Just throwing it out there because most of the stuff in the thread probably won't get into the game anyway.
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The XAW95 certainly won't, nor will the minigun.
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The machine gun should be obsolete-able by the xaw95 Gatling Gun in the equipment gallery.
Edit: Researchable add-ons/upgrades for equipment like scopes, new ammunition, & such would also be nice if unfeasible.
Just throwing it out there because most of the stuff in the thread probably won't get into the game anyway.
Have to quote the whole thang...
Miniguns are multiplayer only...gatling=minigun (gatling being an early version of minigun...yeah yeah gatling =early machine gun..) PM Winter with your personal arguments (j/k)
scopes? besides super-duper x-ray magnum scope...other types of scopes already exist and are prolly factored into weapon accuracy except having some sort of IR goggle tech...oh wait that is in the works.
New ammunition and such...this I agree wid. I think that new projectile ammo should become available from kerrblade/alien material research...of course this already was covered.
It'll be in the game I think, just as a mod *whips Destructavator*
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A new mod forum has been suggested, but as long as it's all speculation I think it's too early for that. But if you come up with something concrete, I'll make it so you can put it in there.
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*whips Destructavator*
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Okay, Okay, at some point soon when I have the time I'll finish the MOD I almost completed and upload it somewhere for people to play with...
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I already did my modifications and I plan to upload it today. I need to test them first and as I have a little ;) hangover I want to wait till it passes so I do not deliver some ill code.
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Cool. If we're going to have Mods floating around, might as well have more than one to choose from.
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Cool. If we're going to have Mods floating around, might as well have more than one to choose from.
Off course, the more the better. We all will have different values and views and can learn from each other.
My mod is available under: http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=3388.0
Can someone test it? For now it is a version for 2.2.1 but later I will do a version for the latest trunk.
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As promised, a new mod board has appeared to accomodate your modding needs.
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A plasmathrower as a specialized alien close combat weapon would be pretty sweet, and plausible; short ranged, but getting blasted with it basically guarantees death. Would be great as an anti-UGV weapon, turning even those mini-tanks into useless piles of slag with relative ease.
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Hmm, like Fire Dragons from W40k universe with their Plasma torches ;)
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The plasma blade is a one shot version of this really and they are small enough to carry lots.
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The plasma blade is a one shot version of this really and they are small enough to carry lots.
Sure, but that's the thing; it's one shot despite the size. Its range is also significantly more limited, and certain loadouts simply do not have the space for too many PBs (things like flashbangs and GL secondaries are preferable beyond the first PB), though I am careful to always have enough for at least one. Further, like the Flamethrower, I'm sure it would have a 'Sweep' firemode that will allow it to kill multiple soldiers in a single attack. In balance it definitely has a viable role as a sort of anti-everything upgrade (alien-side, not an actual adaptation of human tech) to the Flamethrower. I would certainly use it on cramped maps with lots of cover and CQC.
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IMHO I think it would be more realistic to have an upgraded flamer with better chemicals. I see that as a more viable option because the wiki (which may be out of date?) does not list the flamer as a weapon slated for obsolescence and therefore no replacement. The flamer fulfills everything you would want it to do already. Perhaps it just needs an ammo upgrade later in the game.
To the devs: For the few human weapons that will remain useful throughout the game, does that mean there may be MkII upgrades for them? Or more ammo types?
http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Equipment/Primary_Weapons (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Equipment/Primary_Weapons)
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IMHO I think it would be more realistic to have an upgraded flamer with better chemicals. I see that as a more viable option because the wiki (which may be out of date?) does not list the flamer as a weapon slated for obsolescence and therefore no replacement. The flamer fulfills everything you would want it to do already. Perhaps it just needs an ammo upgrade later in the game.
Incendiary agents as effective and lethal as a stream of plasma versus heavily armoured targets? Good luck. Besides, it's a relatively simple matter to channel plasma for a relatively short distance with electromagnetism as contrasted to developing and incorporating plastics capable of safely encapsulating plasma for the distances specified in the UFOpedia. In fact we already have this (EM plasma channeling) technology albeit on a comparatively crude level. It is by no means a stretch to imagine the aliens could and would have weaponized plasma channeling tech to produce such a weapon. Further, the Machine Gun is not listed as an obsoletable weapon, though it ultimately is given the new needler series of weapons being rolled out, and the Plasma Blaster. The wiki list is by no means complete or comprehensive. In addition, I sincerely doubt the flamethrower's efficacy versus robots and heavily armoured units; enemies a plasma thrower would have absolutely no problem with, so it has a genuine tactical niche. Lastly the weapon also gives the aliens something they're desperately lacking; an answer to the flamethrower, and a specialized CQC gun.
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Ah but such is the way of the wiki, i am not even sure the flamer is not obsoletable. The machine gun is listed as possibly being replaced by the plasma blaster though the range is better on the MG the damage is less competitive.
Also heat shielded armor would be just as effective against plasma as it would incendiary chemicals. Plasma's damage comes from it's temperature period. BTW keep in mind in a rational universe the weapons you use most tend to also be the ones you can defend against the best.
Perhaps this means that flamers will go the way of the dodo later in the game.
The way I see it we are arguing over whether or not the flamer's ammo should change. Ask the devs.
As far as a specialized CQC weapon goes, the aliens have hand to hand characters, kerr blades, plasma and particle(?) pistols. At least in the 2.3 dev those alien buggers get a heck of a lot of reaction fire shots with those plasma pistols.
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Also heat shielded armor would be just as effective against plasma as it would incendiary chemicals. Plasma's damage comes from it's temperature period. BTW keep in mind in a rational universe the weapons you use most tend to also be the ones you can defend against the best.
Doesn't plasma also have an extremely high velocity? If the mass is sufficient, then it should be able to punch a hole through armor.
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Doesn't plasma also have an extremely high velocity? If the mass is sufficient, then it should be able to punch a hole through armor.
Most likely a cloud of plasma hitting a hard object would simply deflect and disperse unless it's flying at impossibly high velocity. And even then a solid object would do it much better.
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Ah but such is the way of the wiki, i am not even sure the flamer is not obsoletable. The machine gun is listed as possibly being replaced by the plasma blaster though the range is better on the MG the damage is less competitive.
Also heat shielded armor would be just as effective against plasma as it would incendiary chemicals. Plasma's damage comes from it's temperature period. BTW keep in mind in a rational universe the weapons you use most tend to also be the ones you can defend against the best.
Perhaps this means that flamers will go the way of the dodo later in the game.
The way I see it we are arguing over whether or not the flamer's ammo should change. Ask the devs.
As far as a specialized CQC weapon goes, the aliens have hand to hand characters, kerr blades, plasma and particle(?) pistols. At least in the 2.3 dev those alien buggers get a heck of a lot of reaction fire shots with those plasma pistols.
Kerrblades, plasma and particle pistols are not specialized CQC guns; certainly not on the level that a plasma thrower is. Further, a Kerrblade is really a glorified autopsy tool meant for organ harvesting rather than a true melee weapon.
Second, the difference between the temperatures of plasma (tens of thousands of degrees celsius), and those generated by a mere flamethrower (hundreds of degrees celsius, around 500, assuming a superior incendiary agent burning at thermite temperatures, 2400) is very significant. It is easy to imagine an armour that protects against the latter, but not the former.
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Operating at those temperatures would be pretty dangerous to the user as well.
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That's the beauty of plasma weaponry; the heat can be calibrated to an optimal value (with an obvious minimum).
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Yeah okay with you 10s of thousands of degress (btw the surface of the sun is 5000 degrees Kelvin).
How would you aim it? Also plasma would burn too quickly, flamethrower chems are designed to burn slowly enough so there is still something to hit the guy with. You are not just hitting the guy with flames you know, there is a good amount of burning chemical goo that sticks to the target.
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Yeah okay with you 10s of thousands of degress (btw the surface of the sun is 5000 degrees Kelvin).
How would you aim it? Also plasma would burn too quickly, flamethrower chems are designed to burn slowly enough so there is still something to hit the guy with. You are not just hitting the guy with flames you know, there is a good amount of burning chemical goo that sticks to the target.
Plasma temperatures are simply an output of controllable heat induction (typically via lasers relative to our technology, not sure what the aliens use), thus they can be calibrated to a desired level. At its highest charged states, it indeed features temperatures at tens of thousands of degrees centigrade, while 'cold' plasmas are thousands of degrees centigrade.
Second, I would assume the plasma is cohered for a short distance via a temporary electromagnetic field (it also occurs to me that 'marking' a target in an emulation of lightning phenomena, or an electrolaser/aerial conduction methodology could also work), the whole process of its projection, plasma generation and discharge being activated by a trigger. Aim the discharge port at your target, hold down the trigger, and you're done. Further, precisely because plasma is so hot, it doesn't require continual burning to annihilate its target. A short burst should be more than enough to destroy almost anything; the initial exposure is incredibly deadly.
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Note that human weapons are SUPPOSED to be obsoleted by alien weaponry. Such expansions have been suggested (and rejected) before. Of course, it'd be perfectly fine to make a mod to that effect, but it won't be for the stock game.
All human weapons or just standard ones?
Cause things like railguins/coilguns and lasers can be brutally effective ginven enough power and technical finesse.
And then you have "basic" weapons that are improved (with things like plasma rockets/granades)
Cause advanced human weapons are based on the combination of alien and human tech and know-how. I fail to see why they would be inferior. I for one don't use plasma guns at all cause I find lasers a better choice (amazing accuracy)
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Yes, sadly plasma weapons as is are pretty worthless. They're reasonably strong, but are largely TU inefficient, inaccurate, have a small clip size (Blaster aside), and are painfully short ranged. For all these reasons I too find lasers and even some conventional bullet based weaponry to be preferable to them. In all fairness though, lasers tend to be superior to most weapons, including particle beam weaponry due to their reliability save in cramped levels where more TU efficient but inaccurate weaponry is optimal.
I might consider using plasma weaponry in a niche CQC assault role if the damage were to be substantially increased.
EDIT: Looking through the most recent 2.3 stats, I find that the plasma weapons have been significantly improved. I'll have to do some more in game testing to determine if they're now truly viable. My only complaint is that their automatic (including burst) modes are horribly and blatantly TU inefficient as compared to those of their conventional counterparts.
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Your fancy words do not scare me.
You are describing the electro laser already in development. End of discussion. ;D
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The electrolaser projects an electric charge via one possible method that might be also used to channel a continuous stream of superheated plasma which is generally a lot deadlier.
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EDIT: This post was targeted at a post right before it. The account has been deleted by now, so the post is gone.
I think your post is rather unrelated and that you are a spambot.
Go ahead and prove that I'm wrong ;)
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I think your post is rather unrelated and that you are a spambot.
Go ahead and prove that I'm wrong ;)
No offense if we're wrong, but I am starting to agree, D. Viomo - especially with your profile's listed "website" under your name, which set's off a few red flags with me...
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Well, how about that...
That spam-bot was clever. :o
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BTAxis deleted the account.
It's an ELIZA-type bot that I've aleady seen on other forums. Would be quite interesting to learn how they do it.
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I figured someone deleted it.
I'm guessing it has some type of intelligent program that looks at common words and themes in posts and uses that to decide what type of post to generate, but it sounds like you know more than I do, considering I've never heard of ELIZA (as applied to a spam program) before - although I do have some idea of what a spam-bot is.
Side note: I've heard for years about programs that analyze text, to intelligently find common words and meanings of phrases, one fun thing to do is run such a program on a speech given by an American politician and watch with amusement as a big ZERO comes up, meaning the speech pretty much means nothing and is mostly inflated buzz-words...
EDIT: On the flip side, I've seen some programs that generate meaningless buzz-word phrases if you want to give such a speech, some of them are even web-based and can work on a website through the browser.
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Correction:
American politician ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA)
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Back pon topic tugh: Plasma weaposn are sorta alien shotguns. I find it better if they don't have longer range. Keeping the plasma together at all is incredibly difficult. It's basicly a waste of effort and energy.