UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Tactics => Topic started by: Doctor J on April 15, 2008, 05:33:33 am
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It is interesting to me to see if anybody uses the blades that are too big to fit in a holster or on the belt...
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i have used the combat knife in multiplayer. mainly for comedy value.
the knives are useful in that they do not require many TU. Pistols are in a similar category, so I am more likey to carry a pistol as a reserve weapon, as it has the advantage of working at a slight distance.
use of knives would mean failure to pack enough ammo
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I think he's referring to the 3 vertical space monomolecular blades. Personally I haven't used them, not even as secondary because you can't put in the holster. I really think it should get turned to use only 3 horizontal squares. You'll be able to use it in the belt and holster then, actually increasing the chance someone will use it. Melee is pretty hard to pull off too, I only melee with stunrods for capturing aliens. I have no idea how to modify it so they take up 3 horizontal squares though.
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I think he's referring to the 3 vertical space monomolecular blades.
That is exactly what i'm after here. The fact that the only place to put it is in hand or in the pack means it is that much less likely to even be brought. As to the Kerrblade, forget it. The only way to carry is in hand, which then means you can't bring carry a primary firearm...
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Kerrblade of course is too big to pack it somewhere, but it would be fun to see special holster
on the leg or somewhere to place a knife inside.
Come to think about it, I would like to punch or soccer-kick those alien dudes :)
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What about the plasma blade? I have noticed that even after I researched it I still can't see the stats for plasma blades. Are they better than the monomolecular knives?
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I used to equip soldiers with a combat knife very early on when I first started playing. One guy even got a kill with it once.
Later I moved on to using machine pistols as back-up weapons for the troops. The other blades simply didn't fit in the belt or holster, a requirement for a low TU last resort.
These days I'm simply playing it safe, without any blades. Covering fire, crouching, reaction fire, using two or four man groups, and lots of grenades.
I've found it safer to cover a doorway with a SMG or sniper while the grenadier lobs some explosives. Rather than send someone in and come face to face with a greeny and only 7 TUs left.
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Well you can use your passive coverfire technique atm, but once the engine is prepared for more complicated missions (attack/defend/turn limit/etc...) you'll have issues. Reactionfire has gotten nerfed and is a lot less reliable and more expensive in 2.3 too, so it won't be as effective as before. Personally flushing out aliens with flamethrowers while covering flanks with snipers/machine gunners is what I find most effective. Also keeping a medic for support. You just have to divide your team into two subteams and divide the map into "logical blocks" - divide and conquer.
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i have special troops setup to use it, kerblade in one hand pistol in the other, or pistol in the holster, you can still carry grenades and stuff.
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What about the plasma blade? I have noticed that even after I researched it I still can't see the stats for plasma blades. Are they better than the monomolecular knives?
The monoknife does 140 damage on a Slash, using 12 TU. Plasblade does 300 on a Lock, using 7 TU. Really the only downside to the Plasma Blade is that you'd better not need it twice, as it's disposable. Hmm, maybe i should have included it in the survey...
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The monoknife does 140 damage on a Slash, using 12 TU. Plasblade does 300 on a Lock, using 7 TU. Really the only downside to the Plasma Blade is that you'd better not need it twice, as it's disposable. Hmm, maybe i should have included it in the survey...
I thought it was better I just didn't know the exact stats. I use plasma blades only cause I have a crap load of them and they fit in the same space as a knife. I don't need it more than once so the fact that it is disposable doesn't really affect me. I think it should be included in the poll.
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I am thinking about equipping some dudes with kerr blades and one of the alien pistols probably particle ones. Just wait till they implement the heavier armors, I bet that combo would actually be feasibly (assuming the armor doesn't slow dude down).
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I really think it should get turned to use only 3 horizontal squares. You'll be able to use it in the belt and holster then, actually increasing the chance someone will use it. Melee is pretty hard to pull off too, I only melee with stunrods for capturing aliens. I have no idea how to modify it so they take up 3 horizontal squares though.
I seem to recall one of the .ufo files containing the data that the game reads to know what size and shape items are, although I might be mistaken. The .ufo files also contain data for weapons stats, base building stats, and all kinds of stuff. (They can be opened and edited with a text editor.)
What I personally don't know is how to rotate the model so it would look right in the game.
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At a risk of going against public opinion... I do not tend to use close quarter weapons at all. I figure, my advantages are concentrating fire and killing from afar. Getting up close and personal reacks of trading injuries, which apears to be a looser.
I suppose I should work on a tactic of sneaking up close and hitting first... But then a machine gun works darn well through windows and doorways, AND halfway across the map.
Am I missing some major point of blades?
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At a risk of going against public opinion... I do not tend to use close quarter weapons at all. I figure, my advantages are concentrating fire and killing from afar. Getting up close and personal reacks of trading injuries, which apears to be a looser.
I suppose I should work on a tactic of sneaking up close and hitting first... But then a machine gun works darn well through windows and doorways, AND halfway across the map.
Am I missing some major point of blades?
I feel you man, I certainly do not use close quarter weapons now except the stun rod which I hate doing but need to to get gas grenades. I don't think hand to hand as a regular tactic would really be feasible until the humies get the nastier armors that are supposed to be implemented in the game. Other than that, close quarter combat would probably play a lot like clearing a room with close weapons:
1.) spot alien
2.) Flashbang alien
3.) rush in and dissect the bugger
In open ground close quarters would be dumb, just like in real life.
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what, no "charge of the light brigade" with swords drawn against plasma guns? Bet it will scare them silly!
I see. Never used flashbangs, will have to practice, I guess.
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what, no "charge of the light brigade" with swords drawn against plasma guns? Bet it will scare them silly!
I see. Never used flashbangs, will have to practice, I guess.
Dude, I have NEVER used flashbangs. CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE=my soldiers moving forward ZAPPING alien-buggers with my LASER weapons on reaction mode.
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Oh, that I like! Need some armor and a bit better confidence in reaction fire. For now - the slow version - the crawl of the light bregade - with cover, crouch and reaction fire.
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Hey!
I have discovered that the aliens crave BLAZING ELECTRIC DEATH...
being the generous soul I am I oblige them...with autofire baby!
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STUN-RODS ALL THE WAY ;D
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I believe no bladed weapon is of any use if you have to pull off your pack and dig it out. A blade simply must be draw-able or it's irrelevant. I've never needed a blade, but I carry a plasma blade on each agent for a just-in-case situation. I'd rather spend the trouble and have them never need it, than save the trouble and have them lacking a knife even once.
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Amen to that, better to have one and never need it :)
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I'm in the no blade camp since I worry about encumberance. I tend to choose my soldiers based on accuracy, mind, and skills. So, they tend to be below average in strength. Anyway, if my guys get in melee combat, something has gone terribly wrong with the tactical situation. :-)
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TAZ
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encumberance is not implemented yet, I think.
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If encumbrance was an issue you'd have to have a weight stat for every item. This currently does not exist.
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OK, then let's say I'm playing under a handicap that simulates a possible later version. :-)
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TAZ
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Plasma blade. Great for close encounters, unexpected and otherwise, as they insta kill. In multiplayer, they're incredibly useful for much the same reason.
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In open ground close quarters would be dumb, just like in real life.
Though it would be funny to see 8 men charging across an open field with Kerr blades and Scottish kilts and woad war paint.
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Short cut scene of an armored soldier dueling with an Ortnok on Kerr blades. Another shot of a soldier throwing a plasma blade at a Taman and hitting him square in the head. A slightly longer shot of a wounded, kneeling Shevar and a soldier standing over it with a Kerr blade raised in two hands. The soldier yells: "In the end, there can be only one species!" As the blade begins to fall, the screen goes dark.
Highlander: Alien Invasion.
Coming soon to an Earth near you.
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well according to the game lore that soldier would stand no chance in meele combat with an Ortonok- its like fighting a super mutant from fallout - even more, as ortonok has no blood to spill- as someone said-
if it bleeds- i can kill it
Ortonoks dont. Nevertheless- they can be killed ;)
"In the end, there can be only one species!"
I dont like it- some folks would find a racist context and this would serve no one and nothing. Dont get me wrong- i like the idea of such cutscenes, but they should make sense- not like an army propaganda that makes people think war is fun.
It should rather show that the situation is dire- maybe a pillaged city, dead civilians, children crying over dead parents and than taken brutally on a harvester. Something that would show its not a spectacular epic battle of good and evil- but a desperate fight for survival of humankind, where the death can came from everywhere.
Enyone seen one of the old starcraft cutscenes- where marines blew up a science vessel taken by the Zerg
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I think blades can be useful especially when you make a turn and come face to face with an alien. Well, you could always shoot it at point-blank range, but what if there's another alien behind it? Judging from the previous posts, plasma blades seem to be a better choice over the monomolecular blade, costing less TU and dealing more damage. Also it looks cooler than always blasting the greys from long-range.
By the way, I don't seem to need to use secondary weapons. Usually, the mission ends before I even need to reload for any one of my soldiers, and I always for at least 2 reloads on each soldier. Will there be missions where there are like, 30-40 aliens? The most I've seen is only 8. An urban map against 40 aliens would really be challenging, not to mention exhilarating.
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I've seen up to 12. There was a promise of more. You are right on the secondary weapon, though - rarely needed if ever.
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What, no one go the "Highlander" reference? No one? The great 80's sci-fi movie with Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery. Immortals run around modern SF, cutting off each other's heads, saying "There can be only one!" and getting the power of the slain.
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I feel really young when you say (type) that. I was born only in 1990.
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Well, there was a show "Highlander: The Series" that was quite good - in the 90's. The original movie is really worth seeing. Stay away from the sequels, however. They are very bad.
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I think, unfortunately, melee is still not very popular.
I was thinking of some ideas why melee could still be a nice idea:
- diversity (more fun to need to use different weapons against aliens).
For example some aliens might have a good armour against bullets, but against slicing weapons they
might bleed more or something...
- There may be rescue missions where a captured guy can only use melee weapons.
From the outside, his friends shoot at aliens, but on the inside he can manage to sneak and
hit aliens
I am also thinking of some added advantages, like feats that one could pick or otherweise
train. This could make melee weapons deadly (i.e. because the feats raise the damage these
weapons can do), and might lower the required TU
Last but not least, there could be something like a monofilament whip.
Short range, but more than with knife, a bit difficult to hit the target, but if the target is hit,
it will deal enormous damage, i.e. cut away limbs.
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Anyway, unless its an urban map, I find it extremely difficult to sneak up for a melee. In the open, its much safer to take out the aliens with snipers.
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I dont like the idea of swordplay for UFO- its 2084 and we really have some decent weapons and range is our advantage- i doubt anyone will defeat Ortonok with melee it just makes no sense.
And i dont like forcing anything on players- if you like to play sneaker- do so. Ill stick to picking them from afar with a sniper. also, theres not much sneaking as the aliens use particle and plasma weapons and are REALLY trigger-happy
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I had to use a double stun, plus a stun to get an ortnock down once. The easiest way, as always, is to just head shot, hands down.
By the way, I found that the plasma blaster really sucks. I hit an ortnock from behind at point blank with ball, and he was still standing! Had to sneak a sniper in there and deliver the coup de grace execution style.
But as I always have a stunner with me, its pretty useful when a soldier spots an alien in the next room with only 5 TU left. You just got to send a fast soldier with stunner or plasma blade and finish the alien off, or its your head on the ground.
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And i dont like forcing anything on players- if you like to play sneaker- do so. Ill stick to picking them from afar with a sniper. also, theres not much sneaking as the aliens use particle and plasma weapons and are REALLY trigger-happy
Actually there's no sneaking period; the aliens cheat and know where your troops are at all times. There is however, placement and reaction fire oversight that safeguards you from their offensive actions such that you can close distance without dying.
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So its true that an AI always knows where my troopers are. I suspected that as aliens always rushed blindly from behind a corner and killed one of my man with a plasma torch or died trying from RF
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well, "dying from RF" works for me - they are allowed to do that. ;D
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The blades are pretty useless or hardly get to see action in my savegames. That's because the soldiers are so weak and vulnerable compared to aliens. Once I cut an alien with a kerblade and aside from losing some hitpoints, nothing happened. From what I understand kerblades are deadly. I guess mine was blunt.
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The only real reason to use blades (except as a last resort) would be silence, I would think.
Until/unless the alien AI is reprogrammed so that they are as unaware of us as we are of them until LOS is achieved, this is pretty moot.
Even then, of course, the aliens are going to be well aware of one of their number getting knifed so the silent kill would remain useless - although initially the player would not necessarily know this.
Unless they could be fitted as bayonets to rifles, of course, which might give a nice low TU attack for assault rifle troops doign house-to-house fighting.
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Another option would, with the advent of monomolecular tech and plasma blades, be the use of melee weapons for forced entry. If we had locked but destroyable doors to get through.
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Unless the aliens start deploying dune-style energy shields, of course. "The slow blade defeats the shield...". Or taking the Lensman series POV in which the energy output of hand-portable energy weapons is unable to keep up with the development of personal energy shields, leading to boarding actions taking place with big axes...
Both, however, are pretty blatant "melee is more exciting in fiction than duck-and-cover shooting" devices without much purpose beyond pure entertainment.
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I don't understand all this hate against melee weapons. Plasma blades at the very least are extremely useful given that they are instant death on all difficulty settings.
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I don't understand all this hate against melee weapons. Plasma blades at the very least are extremely useful given that they are instant death on all difficulty settings.
I believe the old adage is "Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight" ;)
The plasma blade is a pretty special case, being more like a shaped charge explosive than a melee weapon...
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While the plasma blade is a single use implement, it definitely qualifies as melee weapon. In any case, it is extremely deadly and effective, being amongst the best weapons for close range combat (it can also be thrown).
Now, criticisms against the other melee weapons are a little more founded. The Kerrblade while lethal (though typically not instantly so) is huge, while the knife and monomolecular blade are both somewhat TU inefficient given their effective range (or lackthereof). That said, despite their obvious shortcomings, the melee weapons do their job as back-ups very well.
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Perhaps moreso when/if weight considerations prevent the carrying of a pistol.
But if I'm going to give my grenade-launcher trooper a backup weapon, right now its going to be some form of pistol rather than a knife...
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Melee impliments are obviously meant to be tertiary rather than secondary weapons (with the possible exception of plasma blades).
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I agree that having a knife is a good idea, but honestly, I think melee combat against stronger aliens is a last-resort situation. It's cool, yes, and possibly necessary too, yes, but definitely not a primary or secondary modus operandi. Anyway, a burst from a submachine gun at point-blank range still works better than a knife slash. Disappointing, maybe, but true in the game and I'm sure in real life.
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Disappointing, maybe, but true in the game and I'm sure in real life.
The game does not simulate real life. Just look at the various complaints about grenade launcher threads.
Anyway, however to come "closer" to real life, a knife might be a great choice for "sneak & kill" assassins.
They could actually be trained in knife heavily, or even use stealth modes... but then again maybe this is
not the typical way for the phalanx to fight (the sneaky way)
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I think you've been influenced too much by media. The assassination of JFK was by the use of an accurate rifle, poisons are used to be placed into meals for thousands of years and traps(for eg. IEDs/bear traps) are often set to kill the said person. Assassins have always been "single-use" as they always hit their targets at the weakest, despite personal safety. Since ancient times, assassins have attacked their targets in public, not always successful, but they almost never gotten away.
Besides, if u look at Shevaars, they've got no eyes and ears but "The Shevaar see in infrared. This will make it difficult to hide from them or approach them undetected." I'd assume other aliens will also behave differently to we humans, and approaching undetected to melee range is extremely hard as it is. The modern day assassins are snipers, that hide from a location and take out their targets at 2000m and leave undetected. Thats why its important to have 1 shot 1 kill, the 2nd shot will be their undoing.
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I would think that the Combat Knife would have more application for defense against melee combat than offense. Ideally, in a situation of a soldier with a knife attempting a melee strike against another soldier with a knife, there would be a chance of missing, and a chance for reduced damage against the knife wielder. Of course, the Kerrblade thoroughly trumps the Combat Knife, and so miss/reduce chance would be almost zero, but once the Monomolecular Knife becomes available, the playing field evens a bit. Now, in the case of a block or damage reduction, there could be a chance that the defending blade is destroyed by the blow it is protecting against. There may also be some lesser consideration for this with soldier weapons; lighter weapons have a higher chance of reducing/blocking, but heavier weapons are more likely to absorb the entire hit and less likely to be destroyed. A Kerrblade in both hands, mind you, may make the soldier almost unattckable in melee, but that does mean sacrificing any ranged potential.
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Yes, I think that assassinations are accomplished more often with silenced weapons and poison than by managing to sneak up behind well-trained enemies and kill them with knives. It does happen, but it's no way to fight off an invasion by a superior foe with superior weapons and technology. I for one wouldn't have even a single agent wholly devoted to knife-fighting. Yes, I would like to have agents throw a knife or two and have that work, but for a modern special-ops, it just can't be a priority.
Now, if someone can successfully develop a ninja-based tactical method and use it successfully, I'd LOVE to see it - that would be great. As long as it's not too cartoonish. I know I'd be tempted to have assassins if there were a reason to silently assassinate any enemies.
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Now, if someone can successfully develop a ninja-based tactical method and use it successfully, I'd LOVE to see it - that would be great. As long as it's not too cartoonish. I know I'd be tempted to have assassins if there were a reason to silently assassinate any enemies.
I've done it. It's called spamming flashbangs then butt-raping the aliens with everything from combat knives to plasma blades. Once smoke grenades work, the tactic will be even more viable. Of course, there's no meaningful reason to do this instead of spamming rockets, laser and coilguns from beyond the effective range of the alien weapons short of creating additional challenge.
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I've done it. It's called spamming flashbangs then butt-raping the aliens with everything from combat knives to plasma blades. Once smoke grenades work, the tactic will be even more viable. Of course, there's no meaningful reason to do this instead of spamming rockets, laser and coilguns from beyond the effective range of the alien weapons short of creating additional challenge.
Perhaps "butt-raping" is not the ... best term to use in a forum. I'd be satisfied to slash their carotids quietly or incise their windpipe if it would help. I'll try that technique, though, Surrealistik.