UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: Wulf Corbett on April 23, 2012, 09:54:28 pm
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I'm not sure what question I should be asking here...
Back in 2.3.1 my squads were set to multiple Reaction Fire (except the grenade launcher...) unless I needed the AP. But in 2.4 restart, I can only set Reaction Fire off or on - no multiple shots. Thing is, I seem to remember that being the case in the past, when I started playing...
So, has this changed in 2.4? Do the squaddies need to have a minimum limit for multiple shots? Or am I missing something?
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2.4 RF will always be multi-shot until TUs are exausted.
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Hmm... that's good, I think. Can't think of a downside. There will be one, I'm sure...
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How is working the RF on the 2.4? My soldiers are very "slow" for reaction fire, even with full TUs. I don´t know why, because in 2.3.1, my soldiers almost every time react, if not at first time, they do it after the alien makes his shot.
Sorry for my english.
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In 2.4 reaction fire is calculated on a simple basis. If soldier A has enough TUs and reaction fire is set to ON, he will fire at an enemy he sees when that enemy has spent the same number of TUs, within view of the soldier, as the soldier's reaction firemode costs.
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So, set Snapshot as the reaction fire and you'll get more reaction fire... That makes sense, I'll have to take a look at my squads.
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Mmmm i understand now. I was using burst fire on my reaction fire. It make sense.
Thanks
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In 2.4 reaction fire is calculated on a simple basis. If soldier A has enough TUs and reaction fire is set to ON, he will fire at an enemy he sees when that enemy has spent the same number of TUs, within view of the soldier, as the soldier's reaction firemode costs.
Please explain how overwatch with a MG (LMG/SAW) is supposed to work with this. The firing costs are correctly set high so that the MG can't be used as a heavy assault rifle, but if I understand your explanation, that same high cost makes it useless for reaction fire.
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We currently have no mechanism for properly implementing a dedicated overwatch role. The same problem exists for our sniper rifles.
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How it works? You hope the enemy walks around and misses.
Basicly, alines walks into view.
It spends 4TU's moving in view, then 12 TU's to fire his plasma gun.
That 16 TU's so far.
He tries to get another shot off, but that puts his total at 28 TU's and the MG's fire costs 24 TU's. MG fires first.
So yes, this makes the MG not-so-optimal for reaction fire.
However, if supressive fire makes it in, it will make MG more usefull.
Another change that might be good is is the reaction fire/Owerwatch mode reduced the TU cost needed to fire (gun already raised, pointed and primed), but reduces ones FoW.
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We currently have no mechanism for properly implementing a dedicated overwatch role. The same problem exists for our sniper rifles.
See that is where I am confused. The earlier reaction fire model gave us overwatch. Now with this improved realism reaction fire model we lose overwatch and gain...??? Sorry but I don't see the gain.
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I think that isn't very realistic. First, if your soldier is crouching, it is supossed to be in guard, so, any thing that moves will come under a rain of bullets. That is the same for snipering.
So, i think that reaction time could be a measurement of TU, Mind and speed. For example, take the enemy TU spending and compare with the Speed units of the soldier x2 and divided for 10.
Soldier speed stats: 23 the reaction coefficient is 4.6 or 5 points.
Enemy walks three steps; 6 points TU
6 points are more than 5 points, so, the soldier react at this (speed). But, if the enemy walks only 2 steps (4 points), he can shot first. But now, the enemy uses 16 TU shooting, this will be 1.6 or 2 points. So, 2 for shooting plus 4 for walking are 6 points. Now, the soldier can react.
This could be a way to make the reaction more efficient. May be used the mind points, to make a "random" process, in order to apply the lucky factor.
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There are two major problems with RF:
#1: TUs for a shot comprise raising, aiming, triggering (==0) and reloading.
Of course this can be *very* different for different weapons. Think assault gun vs. RL. Those differences are NOT defined in the weapon scripts.
#2: oc aiming at a door where we expect an alien to come out would require almost 0 TUs to RF.
But what if the alien steps out of *another* door that is still in the viewing range of the shooter ??
That's why RF is like it is now...strictly according to TUs. Bare with me.
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There are two major problems with RF:
#1: TUs for a shot comprise raising, aiming, triggering (==0) and reloading.
Of course this can be *very* different for different weapons. Think assault gun vs. RL. Those differences are NOT defined in the weapon scripts.
#2: oc aiming at a door where we expect an alien to come out would require almost 0 TUs to RF.
But what if the alien steps out of *another* door that is still in the viewing range of the shooter ??
That's why RF is like it is now...strictly according to TUs. Bare with me.
Well...
In my proposal, the differences between weapons comes with the TUs required. It´s supposed that a reaction with a machine gun will do because the shooter is in ready position. By the way, it´s irrelevant because the game do not make diferences between a suprising alien walking in front of a suprised soldier, or a waiting soldier.
If you are aiming at a door, and the alien comes from another, the TUs needed to face to the door must be added to the sum. If it is less than the TUs used by the alien, the soldier react.
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In 2.4 reaction fire is calculated on a simple basis. If soldier A has enough TUs and reaction fire is set to ON, he will fire at an enemy he sees when that enemy has spent the same number of TUs, within view of the soldier, as the soldier's reaction firemode costs.
let's clarify something... if an alien spends 8 tu's to walk right in front of your soldier who has a 9tu reaction fire mode set, there will be no reaction fire because 8<9. Then if the alien sits on it's hands for the remaining 20 tu's that it had but didn't use, your guy won't take the reaction shot because the alien in front of him wasn't doing anything?
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let's clarify something... if an alien spends 8 tu's to walk right in front of your soldier who has a 9tu reaction fire mode set, there will be no reaction fire because 8<9. Then if the alien sits on it's hands for the remaining 20 tu's that it had but didn't use, your guy won't take the reaction shot because the alien in front of him wasn't doing anything?
As far as I understand it, that is correct.
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There are two major problems with RF:
#1: TUs for a shot comprise raising, aiming, triggering (==0) and reloading.
Of course this can be *very* different for different weapons. Think assault gun vs. RL. Those differences are NOT defined in the weapon scripts.
#2: oc aiming at a door where we expect an alien to come out would require almost 0 TUs to RF.
But what if the alien steps out of *another* door that is still in the viewing range of the shooter ??
Maybe someone should resurrect Yatta's ideas of weapon mobility an survey points (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,4564.msg35244.html#msg35244)...
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Maybe someone should resurrect Yatta's ideas of weapon mobility an survey points (http://ufoai.org/forum/index.php/topic,4564.msg35244.html#msg35244)...
*glances at DarkRain* So... got any plans after finishing the wounds system?
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Why, playing of course.
Wait, why are you looking at me that way...
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let's clarify something... if an alien spends 8 tu's to walk right in front of your soldier who has a 9tu reaction fire mode set, there will be no reaction fire because 8<9. Then if the alien sits on it's hands for the remaining 20 tu's that it had but didn't use, your guy won't take the reaction shot because the alien in front of him wasn't doing anything?
1. in 2.4 and current 2.5dev: yes.
2. *Very* good point. Your comment helped me to finally understand what that 'resolveRF' function was good for. I agree. Gimme some time ;)
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Interesting note here: As far as I can tell the RF actor will only shoot at the current moving actor.
I need to test this but...
Theory: If one soldier spots an alien ready to shoot, switch to another soldier and provoke reaction fire from a safer (further away/behind cover) point. When the alien RF is exhausted switch back to the first soldier and shoot the alien.
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Interesting note here: As far as I can tell the RF actor will only shoot at the current moving actor.
I need to test this but...
Theory: If one soldier spots an alien ready to shoot, switch to another soldier and provoke reaction fire from a safer (further away/behind cover) point. When the alien RF is exhausted switch back to the first soldier and shoot the alien.
I've been trying to do this, but my experience is that they'll RF shoot other targets as well, not only the currently acting one :^/
It seems though that both need to be in it's (alien's) line of sight, the acting soldier and the RF-targeted soldier.
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if an alien spends 8 tu's to walk right in front of your soldier who has a 9tu reaction fire mode set, there will be no reaction fire because 8<9. Then if the alien sits on it's hands for the remaining 20 tu's that it had but didn't use, your guy won't take the reaction shot because the alien in front of him wasn't doing anything?
I'm happy with that. If an alien wants to waste 20 TU's to end up in my LOS/LOF, I vote "yes" too. An "overwatch" mode would be rather handy though. It has to have some mild penalty attached though. Maybe a small TU requirement increase, or a small accuracy penalty, becuase the actor is snatching at the shot a bit (even if the fire mode is set to Aimed)?
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BTW, looks like current code just uses the first fitting firemode for the RF. It's very obvious with the shotgun -- single-barrel and double-barrel shots have the same TU cost, but RF is always the single-barrel.
IMHO, the firemode with the maximal delivered damage should be selected, I see no point in saving ammo in such a case.
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>> the firemode with the maximal delivered damage should be selected
I can think of cases where I'd want to use a cheaper fire mode. If I know there are multiple wounded aliens just around a corner for instance, I might prefer to set a snap shot, and hope for 2 kills, rather than fire 1 aimed, and definitely not be able to fire another. In general, yes, more is better, but it's nice to have options too
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Current code should select lowest TU firemode by default, but you can choose which firemode to use in reaction. I'm almost certain I've witnessed this in action in 2.5, or else my sniper got very lucky with a snap shot.
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I've been trying to do this, but my experience is that they'll RF shoot other targets as well, not only the currently acting one :^/
It seems though that both need to be in it's (alien's) line of sight, the acting soldier and the RF-targeted soldier.
Then someone needs to check the player side code, because our soldiers don't RF anything but the current actor regardless of range or vision. I have seen several maps where soldiers shoot past immobile aliens towards the current actor. That's where my theory came from.
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Then someone needs to check the player side code, because our soldiers don't RF anything but the current actor regardless of range or vision. I have seen several maps where soldiers shoot past immobile aliens towards the current actor. That's where my theory came from.
I believe what you describe is the intended implementation in aDuke's reaction fire model for 2.4. This was one of the things he changed, so people could have memories of it working differently.
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Then someone needs to check the player side code, because our soldiers don't RF anything but the current actor regardless of range or vision. I have seen several maps where soldiers shoot past immobile aliens towards the current actor. That's where my theory came from.
I was referring to aliens shooting at the player's soldiers. AI-controlled alien RF works different from player's soldiers RF?
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AI-controlled alien RF works different from player's soldiers RF?
I don't believe so. aDuke will have to speak up if I'm wrong.
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I'm happy with that. If an alien wants to waste 20 TU's to end up in my LOS/LOF, I vote "yes" too. An "overwatch" mode would be rather handy though. It has to have some mild penalty attached though. Maybe a small TU requirement increase, or a small accuracy penalty, becuase the actor is snatching at the shot a bit (even if the fire mode is set to Aimed)?
In the absence of a dedicated overwatch mode we're using RF for the same purpose, and in either case it would benefit the player if RF did occur. On the other hand if it's supposed to be reaction fire, an enemy loitering about picking it's nose probably wouldn't trigger it...
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It would be nice to have, perhaps, something like a chance of reaction fire if a team ends its turn with units in view of a reaction-fire user, with the chance based on the number of TUs spent relative to the number required to trigger reaction fire. I'm not sure it's worth the effort, though.
~J