UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Tactics => Topic started by: ptbptb on October 09, 2011, 01:07:36 pm
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The Rocket Launcher
Official Data (With HE Rocket)
Skill: Explosive
Damage: 120
Time Units: 14
Range: 250
Spreads: 0.4
Observed Data (untrained soldiers)
1 hit will kill an Unarmoured Taman, 2 hits will kill an Unarmoured Ortnok, 2 hits will kill a Bloodspider
Observed Range (Range * 2 = Time in TU to walk that distance)
Good Shot (80%) at Range 15 (30 TU)
OK Shot (50%) at Range 30 (60 TU)
Poor Shot (20%)* at Range 65 (136 TU)
* Estimated value.
See also attached graph.
NOTES:
The HE Rocket has an area effect. This means that if you shoot something too close to you (closer than 10TU), you'll also be hit by significant damage. It also means that you targets standing in front of walls, etc., are easier to kill.
OVERALL NOTES:
Based on the data here, the Rocket Launcher has 3 x the effective range of the Heavy Needler.
Please feel free to do similar write ups for your favourite weapons. ;-)
P.S. Ranges taken on a straight line (not diagonal) are easiest (unless you do want to work out the hypotenuse each time?).
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The Heavy Needler
Official Data (With Snap Shot)
Skill: Assault
Damage: 110
Time Units: 10
Range: 250
Spreads: 2
Observed Data (untrained soldiers)
2 hit will kill an Unarmoured Shevar
Observed Range (Range * 2 = Time in TU to walk that distance)
Good Shot (80%) at Range 5 (10 TU)
OK Shot (50%) at Range 10 (20 TU)
Poor Shot (20%) at Range 17 (34 TU)
See also attached graph.
Please feel free to do similar write ups for your favourite weapons. ;-)
P.S. Ranges taken on a straight line are best.
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Are you using a program to generate the graphs from the data or just generating the graph after manually entering the data into a spreadsheet?
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I'd suggest putting the age old rocket launcher tip "Aim for the legs!" in the notes section. Especially if the target is in the open.
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I'd suggest putting the age old rocket launcher tip "Aim for the legs!" in the notes section.
I hadn't actually heard that one. I do know that I always have the "confirm" option set for moving / firing. I don't fire unless I see the 'Taman' / 'Ortnok' tag float up and the targeting grid turn red so I know I've actually clicked in the right place.
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Are you using a program to generate the graphs from the data or just generating the graph after manually entering the data into a spreadsheet?
Manually entered into a spreadsheet.
The later graphs should be more accurate as I missed a few tricks at first. The ones there now aren't that bad, though.
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I hadn't actually heard that one. I do know that I always have the "confirm" option set for moving / firing. I don't fire unless I see the 'Taman' / 'Ortnok' tag float up and the targeting grid turn red so I know I've actually clicked in the right place.
At least among FPS players (with games like Quake, Unreal and Team Fortress) it's a very common tactic to aim at the target's legs with RLs to maximize hit chance with the splash damage.
Using shift to... well, shift the aiming into the targets legs should at least theoretically raise the chances to hit, since the rocket will hit the ground nearby instead of just flying right past the target.
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Using shift to... well, shift the aiming into the targets legs should at least theoretically raise the chances to hit, since the rocket will hit the ground nearby instead of just flying right past the target.
Oh, I'm with you now. I know (somewhat) about the shift thing, but I've hardly used it at all so I'm not that familiar with how it works. To be clear, if you hold the 'shift' button down when targeting it aims at the bottom (ground) of the level you have selected (number at left of screen), right?
[EDIT] Updated graphs with 'best fit' curve.
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Hit shift to cycle your aim height at any time while targeting.
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The Grenade Launcher
Official Data (With PB Grenades and Snapshot - Airburst)
Skill: Explosive
Damage: 150
Time Units: 8
Range: 15
Spreads: 1
Observed Data (untrained soldiers)
1 x Near Miss will kill an Unarmoured Taman, 2 x Near Miss will kill an Unarmoured Ortnok
Observed Range (Range * 2 = Time in TU to walk that distance)
Good Shot (80%) at Range 5 (10 TU)
OK Shot (50%) at Range 9 (18 TU)
Poor Shot* (32%) at Range 15 (30 TU)
* 15 is the max range.
See also attached graph.
NOTES:
The PB Grenade has an area effect - it's a great way of taking out a bunch of closely spaced enemies at once. Near misses are practically as good as a direct hit, so the accuracy given for this weapon is much less important than with other weapons. Note that if you shoot something too close to you (closer than 8TU), you'll also be hit by significant damage.
Other things to watch out for
* Be careful when firing past walls or other obstructions. 'Grenade Launcher Suicide' isn't a nice way to go.
* With some skill and luck you can use the 'timed' shots to do damage further away than the normal range, or even around corners. Watch out that they don't bounce right back, though! Also it's worth testing the ground on a map as the 'bounce factor' varies widely.
Please feel free to do similar write ups for your favourite weapons. ;-)
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My experience shows that even at 15 TU 3 grenades in a shot is almost a certain death for most enemies, if you aim a bit before the target, not after
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It would be good to include some tips about weapons beyond the cold accuracy/damage analysis.
Rocket Launcher: Given its low rate of fire and limited one-hit kill capacity, it's not good "sniper" weapon. Best use for it is long range indirect fire. It is excellent "berzerk" trigger during long range peekaboo shootouts. Just fire it into wall next to enemy who is covered from direct hit.
Grenade Launcher: one of favorite weapons of almost everyone, it has biggest bang for TU from whole arsenal. However, it has limited killzone due to low max range and splash damage creating minimal range. Its indirect fire abilites also have low accuracy (timed shot). It's best used at known chokepoints, like harvester enterance, bow of crashed harvester (if dropship lands near the undamaged side of harvester)... Although it is hinted to use flechette shells when enemy is too close, whole reloading process is too slow, and you won't be able to score a kill unless the soldier has full TUs. It is better to carry a secondary weapon for those situations-SMG or machine pistol at the beginning, plasma blade in belt later.
Couple of weapons I'd suggest to analyze:
Machine Gun-my favorite weapon...
Melee weapons with throw ability
most common secondary weapons-plasma pistol, laser pistol, machine pistol (I use those sometimes because they are only secondary ranged weapons that fit into belt)
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Machine Pistol
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40 range, 20+-5 damage, 5/8/14TU, 1/3/8 shots.
One of the most useful weapons in the game. Not for it's killing power, it's accuracy, it's range or even its burst abilities. It's for one reason: it fits on your belt. This makes it a very versatile weapon in a tactical fall-back sense.
It opens up a whole world of equipment options. You can drop your current weapon and whip out your MP for 3TU's (handy for GL/RL ditching). You can spray a few bullets at an almost dead enemy to take them out. You can carry a medikit in your holster for crying out loud. Everyone can be a medic.
It's may be an absolutely hopeless weapon against armour. It might be inaccurate at range. Other secondaries may be a little (heaps) more powerful. But it's cheap, it's quick, it has a good snap/3-shot/auto TU scheme and allows lots of other equipment options. You can use it for all the early/mid game without a problem.
The Machine Pistol is cheap, versatile, handy and full of ammo. Exactly what a secondary weapon should be.
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Of course as a result, having a spare clip or two is a bit of a bitch.
Unless you keep most of them in the backpack which means you'll have to stop and rearrange at some point.
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I don't meant to hijack the thread, but I'm curious how people feel about the "close" skill. Are you happy with your close specialists? Do you find they get as much use as other specialists (assault,heavy,explosives,sniper)?
I am looking at the weapon/damage distribution and from what I can tell, the close specialists seem to be at a bit of a disadvantage.
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Well, close skill is used only for secondary weapons, and that's how I treat it. No specialists.
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I generally prefer my combat done at long to medium ranges.
IE; Snipers and riflemen with a heavy or two. Everyone with a pistol. Even if only for looks rather than function.
But I do sometimes turn to the SMG as a primary weapon on one of them and designated medics and grenadiers have a tendency to have single-handed weaponry issued. Of course, these guys generally don't get much in the way of gunning hostiles down.
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I don't meant to hijack the thread, but I'm curious how people feel about the "close" skill. Are you happy with your close specialists? Do you find they get as much use as other specialists (assault,heavy,explosives,sniper)?
I am looking at the weapon/damage distribution and from what I can tell, the close specialists seem to be at a bit of a disadvantage.
I have a close combat specialist with a shotgun and I'm inclined to agree that close skill isn't as good or lasting as others. Assault skill gets a new primary weapon from every avenue (laser rifle, plasma rifle, particle rifle...), heavies also get a new weapon (as well as keeping flamer, which is better in close combat than close skill itself and keeps its usefulness) and explosives get upgraded munitions to their weapons, while close skill only gets secondary/backup weapons instead of specialized close combat weaponry.
Snipers grab a bit of a short stick in the mid-game too, where lasers enroach on their territory while they pretty much have to stay with the basic sniper rifle for accuracy. However, by the late-game they have the coilgun and get their job back.
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To be honest, I generally always keep a standard sniper around all the time.
Coilguns are just too bulky to fully rely on.
But an actual high tier close range weapon that's actually designed with Homo Sapiens in mind would be rather lovely.
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I have a close combat specialist with a shotgun and I'm inclined to agree that close skill isn't as good or lasting as others. [...] flamer, which is better in close combat than close skill itself [...] close skill only gets secondary/backup weapons instead of specialized close combat weaponry.
With little hesitation I second Hertzila's post. Close combat proves itself invaluable in close quarters with civilians and aliens mixed together - take any building assault as example. What is needed here is something powerful(like one shot-one kill powerful), highly accurate and with high fire rate - range, obviously, isn't an issue. In-game weapon that fits here best would be particle beam pistol. Something that doesn't fit here as good as PB pistol would be flamer, stun stick, plasma pistol, plasma blade(my personal favorite) and some of the old shotguns and SMGs. That arsenal seems to be impressive, and it does suffice in most situations. However, it would be really cool to see some human-designed advanced strictly close combat weapon - like overcharged laser pistol that renders itself inoperable after dosen of shots, or maybe plasma blade crossbow, or human-modified plasma pistol(grip that is more convenient for humans, higher precision and plasma temperature), or pocket needler.
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My only close combatant is my dedicated medic, who doesn't even fight. (I use only one person as a medic, because i find everyone carrying medcits odd, yes i know i am intentionally hindering myself) Because alien weapons are generally better at close range. My "doctrine" involves a lot of snipers and lasers. If no lasers available then snipers and spotters. (Though when opprotunity arises, i do order my men to stab the aliens with combat knives for the fun of it) ;D
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I´m very displeased with the sniper rifle. I think that the spread must be lower. Look at this: the AR have a spread of 1 with aimed shot, but there´s no scope, only iron sights. The sniper rifle have a 0.9 spread in AIMED shot, but have a scope... is seriously ridiculous!!
I think that the SR must be 0,6 in spread, and the laser weapons 0,3. By this way, the SR will have more sense.
Another way, is to include a laser sniper rifle, with enough firepower to do 120 points of damage with overcharge, and only 5 or 3 shots to balance the game.
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A "hidden" feature is, that different weapons gain different accuracy bonuses when crouching. AR doesn't get much more accurate, but SR...
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Another way, is to include a laser sniper rifle, with enough firepower to do 120 points of damage with overcharge, and only 5 or 3 shots to balance the game.
It's called the heavy laser.
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Naaaa, the heavy laser only have 55 points of damage. For 120, you must fire a pulsed fire. And, its a heavy weapon, so the stats used are the heavy weapons, not sniper.
I tell about a laser for a single shot of 120 hits points, using the sniper stats.
I think that heavy laser is a waste of time.
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Lasers should probably be changed a bit...give us real laser sniper rifle, and modify heavy laser to work more like a machinegun...probably using several cartridges at once to get good firing endurance, a bit less damage than now per shot but high ROF modes...and less accuracy, can be justified by weight of weapon and high temperature fluctuations of chamber due to high output.
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You do realise a heavy laser isn't supposed to replace the MG, right?
And I'm pretty sure a laser sniper rifle would be even heavier and bulkier than the heavy laser which is supposed to be a bitch to carry. See where I'm going?
Not to mention that having friggin laser beams in every role would be boring and unfeasible.
And who the hell even uses wave fire anyway?
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You do realise a heavy laser isn't supposed to replace the MG, right?
And I'm pretty sure a laser sniper rifle would be even heavier and bulkier than the heavy laser which is supposed to be a bitch to carry. See where I'm going?
Not to mention that having friggin laser beams in every role would be boring and unfeasible.
And who the hell even uses wave fire anyway?
I don´t see the point of a laser MG. The MG in crouching position is very lethal at longer ranges with a good soldier. But, the sniper rifle is very outclased by the laser rifle or the heavy laser.
If not a laser sniper rifle, the heavy laser must be used like a sniper rifle, with sniper stats, not heavy. The sniper rifle is a 20 mm gun; what about the weight?? I only used one time the HL and i belive that is a piece of .....
Or, the SR could have a spread of 0,6. Holly god!! it´s a sniper rifle!!
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Or someone could add in a version of the bolter that isn't designed to cause more inconvinence to the user than the enemy beyond spitting distance...
I really have to figure out how to do that one day.
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The bolter is another useless weapon. It´s so inaccurate....
This is another weapon to fix, i think. Being a early weapon, it need a very trained soldier to use it effectively.
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The bolter is another useless weapon. It´s so inaccurate....
I'm pretty sure any weapon shaped like that would be inaccurate.
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Could be... but this is a game and the bolter is a early weapon, that is impossible to use early. When it come usefull, it´s outclased by lasers, plasma and even the assault rifle (with good soldier stats).
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With little hesitation I second Hertzila's post. Close combat proves itself invaluable in close quarters with civilians and aliens mixed together - take any building assault as example. What is needed here is something powerful(like one shot-one kill powerful), highly accurate and with high fire rate - range, obviously, isn't an issue. In-game weapon that fits here best would be particle beam pistol. Something that doesn't fit here as good as PB pistol would be flamer, stun stick, plasma pistol, plasma blade(my personal favorite) and some of the old shotguns and SMGs. That arsenal seems to be impressive, and it does suffice in most situations. However, it would be really cool to see some human-designed advanced strictly close combat weapon - like overcharged laser pistol that renders itself inoperable after dosen of shots, or maybe plasma blade crossbow, or human-modified plasma pistol(grip that is more convenient for humans, higher precision and plasma temperature), or pocket needler.
This is why I mod my game:
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1517/ufopistol.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/ufopistol.jpg/)
Mid-game weapon that requires alien materials. Advanced pistol wiht a lot bigger bang, using more powerfull propellant and tungsten penetrators (hence requiresin alein materials and advanced anti-recoil systems to handle hte pressure and kick).
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Amongst some other changes for after 2.4, I am considering changing the Plasma Blaster to a close-skill weapon with high damage, very low accuracy, to be a kind of shotgun-like mid-game weapon for close specialists.
Thoughts?
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While the name does sound more fitting for that, wouldn't that make them vulnerable at range?
Though, of course, they do get some rather unpleasant stuff immediately after that thing so I guess it shouldn't be that bad.
And a momentary reprieve before the hurricane might feel nice as well.
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shouldn't a close combat weapon look more mobile in the sense of direction changes?
or else the opponent might just dodge the muzzle or block it?
like the flamer is a heavy weapon rather than close.
also (maybe i don't remember correctly, because it feels like a long time ago), didn't heavy plasma also have a grenade launcher firemode in the past?
i remember previous time i tried some ufo:ai, i made some heavy weapons specialists and researched heavy plasma just for that flexibility, but was bit surprised not to find it.
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Amongst some other changes for after 2.4, I am considering changing the Plasma Blaster to a close-skill weapon with high damage, very low accuracy, to be a kind of shotgun-like mid-game weapon for close specialists.
Thoughts?
Plasmathrower. Same as flamethrower, only throws plasma.
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We should also fix the remaining non-working weapons like flashbangs, smoke-grenades, incendiary grenades, IC rockets.
Also we should finally implement proximity bombs...
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We should also fix the remaining non-working weapons like flashbangs, smoke-grenades, incendiary grenades, IC rockets.
Also we should finally implement proximity bombs...
Flashbangs were reported to be working so they will make into 2.4. About smoke grenade, uh.. it needs the whole Visibility system (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Gameplay_Proposals/Visibility) to be implemented... :(
-geever
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And technically, I suspect nonfunctional implemented weapons count as bugs, which I hope have a priority over new features.
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And technically, I suspect nonfunctional implemented weapons count as bugs, which I hope have a priority over new features.
Not really. Non functional items will be removed from the release. Our priority should be finishing the campaign (which mean new features).
-geever
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Ah, joy.
I'd make a quip how that explains half the features but I suspect some folks might be unappreciative of that.
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Amongst some other changes for after 2.4, I am considering changing the Plasma Blaster to a close-skill weapon with high damage, very low accuracy, to be a kind of shotgun-like mid-game weapon for close specialists.
Thoughts?
Sounds like a good idea. Other than the flamethrower, most extreme up close weapons get outclassed the instant aliens start wearing armor.
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Amongst some other changes for after 2.4, I am considering changing the Plasma Blaster to a close-skill weapon with high damage, very low accuracy, to be a kind of shotgun-like mid-game weapon for close specialists.
Thoughts?
Sounds like a neat thing for my close combat guys. I just hope that by very low accuracy you don't mean that it will be nearly impossible to hit anything with it. Suppose that it fires like a shotgun and accuracy per 'pellet' is low, however, it sounds much better.
Flashbangs were reported to be working so they will make into 2.4. About smoke grenade, uh.. it needs the whole Visibility system (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Gameplay_Proposals/Visibility) to be implemented... :(
-geever
More as a temporary means to that end rather than the final choice, but would it be possible to create a temporary 'wall' that obstructs visibility and laser/particle fire while allowing movement and contempory weapons fire?
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i always use machine guns, on the top a riot shotgun/sniper rifle, medikit , and 3 grenades and extra secundary clip for back up armor....... grenade launcher is far to short.... and marines are really crappy using any kind of grenades. for me is long distance machine gun all the way, you get 5 full auto shots which will kill everything at medium close range...... the problem is a couple of shots back from any alien and your soldier is dead..... so like in real life give them a far away target and ambush...... their plasma grenades are brutal, problem is too unrealiable to use yourself......
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Surely, the gap is for a short range, powerful weapon? The shotgun (SG) is useful with either load until armour appears, and just about OK with light armour, because a 3 round burst of sabot is quite damage/TU efficient. The plasma pistol can kinda suffice as secondary weapon (at least you can blast away with it), but there isn't a decent ranged weapon to replace the SG. Converting the Plasma Blasters burst fire to Close Range would certainly help, but what's needed is more like a plasma SMG, with at least some ranged fire capability, but only really useful at close range.
I'm not sure the tables I used to look up some of the other values are correct, since they appear to be for v2.2, and I don't know if any really significant changes to weapons values have been made since that version. The principles would still aplly, even if the numbers need tweaking. Perhaps PHALANX engineers could reengineer captured weapons, and assemble a new one from pieces of one each of a Plasma Pistol, Rifle and Blaster. It would be available for research once all 3 base weapons have been researched, consumes one of each in building, and has stats similar to this
Range 18
5 - round burst 9TU : Dam 55 8 : acc 1.8 1.8 : crouch 0.8
Full Auto (10 rounds) 16TU : Dam 55 8 : acc 2.2 2.2 : crouch 0.9
Reload 14TU
Give it a one space, 10 round magazine, maybe have it use a remanufactured power cell too (consumes 1 of each other type to build, or two pistol chargers or something). No snap or aimed fire, the linkage to the power cell isn't refined enough to allow drawing measured amounts of power that precisely. It does more damage than an SMG or Riot Shotgun, but less than a Plasma Rifle or Laser Rifle (wave), and can't compete with the rifles on range anyway. It's not terribly accurate, so it needs to be at fairly close range to get enough hits to be effective against armour and / or tougher creatures, but it's limited to R18 anyway (between Plamsa Pistol and Rifle, actually less than an SMG and just about every non-shotgun human weapon)
With that damage rating (or thereabouts), it is useful against light armour, and does some damage to medium armoured aliens, and if heavy alien armour appears, I suspect it will need to be supplanted by a PBW equivalent. It takes slightly more TU to use than equivalent fire for an SMG, because it's inevitably going to be more awkward to use, but the increased damage, and reduced range keeps it competitive, without being overpowered.
Its' research requirements stop it becoming available to PHALANX until they *really* need it, because the aliens have to have fielded Plasma Blasters, and PHALANX need to have captured and researched one, and completed another research project all before they become available to build even. The same would apply to any PBW variant, so it would presumably be one of the last weapons you get in the game.
It even gives you something to do with all the alien crap building up in your storage areas, win-win ;)