UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: Viento on January 02, 2010, 01:03:37 am
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First: Great game! I've been enjoying it tremendously and I'm downloading the newest build to start it over again! I love the development (this time there was a Corrupter-Model in a terror mission and the alien base which I'd never seen before) ;) So, great work, keep it up.
Feedback:
> Maximum limit / month: 600 000 Cr
Phallanx needs to defend earth against the virus. This can only be done if Phallanx has fighter aircraft available almost everywhere. Basically every continent would need a base but this is impossible at the moment. I had 5 bases and I'm not sure whether a 6th one wouldn't have ruined me financially in mid-game.
=> such an important institution should (if successful!) have enough money to expand.
=> Another alternative: I could imagine that Phallanx would just use cities of friendly countries to put a fighter there. I played another remake of UFO and this was a very nice feature. The cities repaired and fueled your aircraft but didn't rearm "fancy" weaponry (like alien stuff, etc). They cities were paid for this "service".
> Research and triggers
At the beginning of the game there is an awful lot to research. It's very hard to decide what items to go for first. That's brilliant and I think it's realistic in a scenario in which a lot of new technology is introduced via war. Now, I've been playing with 60 scientists and thus I had quite good research capabilities.
In mid-game there is still some interesting things but the closer I git to the end (virus enters the game), the less interesting things there are to research.
=> perhaps it would be good to use "triggers" to make sure that there is enough to research left even in the later part of the game. An example will be given in the next point.
> The Corruptor Story and research: Feed the player more smaller bits
Some things that sprang to my mind: Basically it splits the story up into more smaller bits of information.
> Corrupter shot down => mission => research: "Ship Corruptor"
> "Disassemble Corruptor" => new pieces of alien ufo equipment are recovered: "Virus canisters", "Injection Devices"
=> new research: "Injection Devices" => more horror details about aliens infecting humans
=> new research: "Virus Canisters" => more details on the virus
=> new research: "Dropping mechanism" => player learns about the ability to drop these "injection devices".
=> new research: "Alien from a Corruptor" => player can learn (if there are enough other captures aliens) something about the mission
=> new research: "Hypothesis on Corruptor" => after having done the research on the new ufo stuff and a crew member, the mission of the Corrupter should be revealed.
You see what I mean: Don't give the player all the information in just 1 research mission (as it is now), but feed them bits, but lots of them. The appearance of the Corruptor is a key element in the game. I would like to stress its importance by making the player reserach a lot and piece the story together.
> Improve close combat firing weapons in mid- and end-game.
All close combat weapons are useless once medium armor is used by aliens. It's a pity that all the brave close combat 50+ skill guys have no weapons to use but only carry stun grenades.
=> my favourit solution: After "medium armor" is researched (=trigger), makind comes up with new kinds of ammo to counter the better armor. This could be combined with the next point (alien materials) because that stuff should be great to make highly penetrative rounds.
=> there is a thread on this topic, so I keep it short here: http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=4327.0
> Make Alien materials useful or allow me to get rid of it faster
I accumulated whole tons of Alien materials. If you sell >6000 of these, you need to put a heavy item on the mouse button. I made coffee while all the stuff was sold (no joking). It took several minutes.
=> add a faster "counting" after 30 secons. Steps of 100 would be fine for worthless (3cr) items like alien materials.
or, much better:
=> give sense to the alien materials:
> Fighters can only be built with these.
> New weapons need it
> new kinds of ammunition could use it (see above)
> Bases could be protected effectively against bombing runs by adding "armor" (this would also explain why aliens do not simply wipe out Phallanx bases but attack them with soldiers)
=> this would open up another research branch: "What can we do with these materials?" with easy trigger points "New development: We found a way to shape the materials even more precisely. Now we are able to form smaller things like..."
> Ranking system of soldiers
It's too slow. I only got 1 soldier who wasn't a Rifleman.
=> speed up the ranking system: For every 5 soldiers in Phallanx there should be a superior (a Sergeant), for every 15 an officer, etc... the best person gets promoted.
> Skill system
I also don't understand how the skills increase. Some seem to be linked to the weapons you use, and to kills (grenade launcher guys level fast), some other skills don't change at all while others change faster. I didn't find a system behind it.
Health is a problem, though. I haven't seen it rise, which I would like to. My best Close Combat soldier had 80 HP which was not enough at the end of the game. She kept dying from every stupid needle. :)
Okay, this is what I wanted to feedback to you. Thank you for the great game! ;)
Andy
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Glad to hear that you are able to finish the game. Is it good to know that campaign framework works ok.
Some notes:
About corrupter: that part of the game is not complitely written, and will be extended.
About ranking and skills: It will be revisited one day.
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> Maximum limit / month: 600 000 Cr
Phallanx needs to defend earth against the virus. This can only be done if Phallanx has fighter aircraft available almost everywhere. Basically every continent would need a base but this is impossible at the moment. I had 5 bases and I'm not sure whether a 6th one wouldn't have ruined me financially in mid-game.
=> such an important institution should (if successful!) have enough money to expand.
=> Another alternative: I could imagine that Phallanx would just use cities of friendly countries to put a fighter there. I played another remake of UFO and this was a very nice feature. The cities repaired and fueled your aircraft but didn't rearm "fancy" weaponry (like alien stuff, etc). They cities were paid for this "service".
About this, the choice was made to make expansion expensive on purpose. You're MEANT to not be able to cover the entire earth with your radars/fighters unless you are very successful. It's a game element, and though it may sound unrealistic, I consider it sound.
That being said, the economy is far from properly balanced, so changes will certainly be made.
> Research and triggers
At the beginning of the game there is an awful lot to research. It's very hard to decide what items to go for first. That's brilliant and I think it's realistic in a scenario in which a lot of new technology is introduced via war. Now, I've been playing with 60 scientists and thus I had quite good research capabilities.
In mid-game there is still some interesting things but the closer I git to the end (virus enters the game), the less interesting things there are to research.
=> perhaps it would be good to use "triggers" to make sure that there is enough to research left even in the later part of the game. An example will be given in the next point.
Well, the tech tree just isn't finished yet, especially in the area you describe. UGVs, more armour types, more base facilities, more craft and psionics still have to be incorporated. Not to mention the rest of the story. I'd try and get those in first, and then see if the tech starvation is still there. If so, we can try to flesh it out a bit.
*snip*
=> new research: "Injection Devices" => more horror details about aliens infecting humans
=> new research: "Virus Canisters" => more details on the virus
=> new research: "Dropping mechanism" => player learns about the ability to drop these "injection devices".
=> new research: "Alien from a Corruptor" => player can learn (if there are enough other captures aliens) something about the mission
=> new research: "Hypothesis on Corruptor" => after having done the research on the new ufo stuff and a crew member, the mission of the Corrupter should be revealed.
You see what I mean: Don't give the player all the information in just 1 research mission (as it is now), but feed them bits, but lots of them. The appearance of the Corruptor is a key element in the game. I would like to stress its importance by making the player reserach a lot and piece the story together.
There is an important drawback to that approach, which is that the individual research topics are essentially pointless. We strongly feel that each and every research topic must have a merit in its own right, be it storyline progression or a benefit ingame (unlocking equipment, etc). Stringing up storyline research like that is going to seem very artificial and forced, and that's not a good thing.
=> give sense to the alien materials:
> Fighters can only be built with these.
> New weapons need it
> new kinds of ammunition could use it (see above)
> Bases could be protected effectively against bombing runs by adding "armor" (this would also explain why aliens do not simply wipe out Phallanx bases but attack them with soldiers)
Yeah, I see Alien Materials working much like that in the game. There should really be various uses for it.
> Skill system
I also don't understand how the skills increase. Some seem to be linked to the weapons you use, and to kills (grenade launcher guys level fast), some other skills don't change at all while others change faster. I didn't find a system behind it.
For 2.3, the system is described here (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Proposals/Attribute_Increase).
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There is an important drawback to that approach, which is that the individual research topics are essentially pointless. We strongly feel that each and every research topic must have a merit in its own right, be it storyline progression or a benefit ingame (unlocking equipment, etc). Stringing up storyline research like that is going to seem very artificial and forced, and that's not a good thing.
With regards to the Corrupter especially, I'd like to take this comment and add that stringing the player along beyond reasonable doubt -- when the player has figured out what's going on with the Corrupter and XVI while all the highly-trained PHALANX staff are still in the dark -- is a good way to kill the whole experience. There will absolutely be more research leading from the Corrupter, but it will be linked to the XVI research and the Breeder alien rather than artificially lengthening the tree.
Regards,
Winter
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For 2.3, the system is described here (http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Proposals/Attribute_Increase).
Is it possible to be more specifically, because as I stated in this thread (http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=4316.0), you don't gain any skill points for accuracy, if you use assault/bolter/sniper rifle (at least, I don't get any skill points in accuracy). What do you really have to do to gain skill points in accuracy?
@TO (Viento): When (ingame date) did the game end for you? And how about mission variety for you?
I'm asking because it is Jan 2085 in my game and the game is getting boring, because I do the same missions over and over again and there is nothing to research. And there is no coilgun, sheevar or whatever. When did the "endgame" start for you? I want to know how long I have to wait to get to this point.
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Game ending: Standard Difficulty - ended: Oct. 2085 after I discovered a base that may have existed for some time.
Mission variety: only few missions, no great variation. I only played those that I find interesting (in mid- and endgame there are 10+ missions everywhere, so I chose thse that I like).
When did "endgame" start for me: Puh, hard to say. I would say it starts when the needler-guns appear (and make your life miserable). I would guess this could have been around Mai, but I'm not sure and I can't look it up, sorry.
In general: I think this information may not apply to your game if the difficulty setting is different.
Andy
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Yes, I know (with the difficulty), but I needed a little hint (thanks for that). May 2085, so that "may" ( :D ) be June/July for me.
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Is it possible to be more specifically
case ABILITY_ACCURACY:
for (i = 0; i < SKILL_NUM_TYPES; i++) {
if (i == SKILL_SNIPER)
exp = 30 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
else
exp = 20 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
}
break;
For the complete list of calculations, read the relevant code (http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/src/game/g_match.c?view=markup) (function G_GetEarnedExperience).
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I can't read the code quite well, because I'm not a programmer. I only understand, how a soldier gets experience for his/her skills, but not how a skill evolves with this experience.
The problem is, I hit and killed so many aliens in this game and my snipers didn't gain a single point to accuracy. They should have got a lot of experience by now.
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Maybe it's bugged, then, because you should get an increase in accuracy with all weapons, and sniper weapons more so.
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> Ranking system of soldiers
It's too slow. I only got 1 soldier who wasn't a Rifleman.
=> speed up the ranking system: For every 5 soldiers in Phallanx there should be a superior (a Sergeant), for every 15 an officer, etc... the best person gets promoted.
I realized that my feedback doesn't apply to the newest build (27699) any more. Now in my new game, I have plenty Corporals and Lance-Corporals after just a few missions.
So you can regard this issue as solved (at least for me) ;)
And I have to say, btw... difficulty "hard" is really hard.
Andy
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For the complete list of calculations, read the relevant code (http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/src/game/g_match.c?view=markup) (function G_GetEarnedExperience).
@BTAxis:
I did that and found that we are only gaining skill from successful hits (btw [KILLED_ALIENS] is misleading here, should be renamed to sth like TARGET_ALIENS).
What do you think about granting them a little gain for misses, say 1/10 or 1/20 of the gain for success ?
It would be easy to code, as misses can be calculated as 'fired - hits'. And it makes sense imho, because a miss is also a (bad) experience you can learn from ;)
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case ABILITY_ACCURACY:
for (i = 0; i < SKILL_NUM_TYPES; i++) {
if (i == SKILL_SNIPER)
exp = 30 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
else
exp = 20 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
}
break;
Hello,
correct me if im totally wrong, but as far as i can read this you only gain exp on the last skill of SKILL_NUM_TYPES, maybe explosives. Didnt it has to be
case ABILITY_ACCURACY:
for (i = 0; i < SKILL_NUM_TYPES; i++) {
if (i == SKILL_SNIPER)
exp += 30 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
else
exp += 20 * (chr->scoreMission->hits[i][KILLED_ALIENS] + chr->scoreMission->hitsSplash[i][KILLED_ALIENS]);
}
break;
so you raise acc for every kill with every weapon type, what would be the answer for
I can't read the code quite well, because I'm not a programmer. I only understand, how a soldier gets experience for his/her skills, but not how a skill evolves with this experience.
The problem is, I hit and killed so many aliens in this game and my snipers didn't gain a single point to accuracy. They should have got a lot of experience by now.
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you are right - i've commited the patch - thanks
https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/ufoai/changeset/27930
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@BTAxis:
I did that and found that we are only gaining skill from successful hits (btw [KILLED_ALIENS] is misleading here, should be renamed to sth like TARGET_ALIENS).
What do you think about granting them a little gain for misses, say 1/10 or 1/20 of the gain for success ?
It would be easy to code, as misses can be calculated as 'fired - hits'. And it makes sense imho, because a miss is also a (bad) experience you can learn from ;)
I'm disinclined to allow this, because it would mean standing in the corner of a map and firing at a wall for an hour would get you experience. In short, it's exploitable. If you could check if the player was actually trying to hit an enemy, it might work, though.
correct me if im totally wrong, but as far as i can read this you only gain exp on the last skill of SKILL_NUM_TYPES, maybe explosives. Didnt it has to be
so you raise acc for every kill with every weapon type, what would be the answer for
You're totally right, that was a bug. It's fixed in trunk.
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you are right - i've commited the patch - thanks
https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/ufoai/changeset/27930
np, im glad i could help
nice beginner mistake anyway ;)
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I'm disinclined to allow this, because it would mean standing in the corner of a map and firing at a wall for an hour would get you experience. In short, it's exploitable. If you could check if the player was actually trying to hit an enemy, it might work, though.
Of course I agree with you regarding exploits. But I was under the impression that 'fired' is only increased when targeting an alien. I'll recheck that.
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Well, it shouldn't be, because weapons like grenades and rockets can be fired at a position rather than an actor to take advantage of the splash damage.
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Checked it. My impression was wrong. Would make it a little more complicated. And I didn't even think about grenades and such.
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You would need a lot of ammo to fire at the wall for an hour. In all honesty, it would be easier just to cheat and change the value than it would be to give artificial accuracy by shooting the wall. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't worry too much about what can be exploited, cheaters will do whatever they want anyway.
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One thing that concerns me is how soldiers could get experience just for being on a mission even if they hide in the back of the dropship the whole time.
There is a possible fix for this though, in the future: At some point when a "safe zone" is implemented around the dropship for aborting missions and not losing certain soldiers, perhaps soldiers that go on a mission but never leave the safe zone and never shoot any aliens that approach the craft (as it does make sense to leave one or two guarding the dropship) could get no experience whatsoever for the mission.
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One thing that concerns me is how soldiers could get experience just for being on a mission even if they hide in the back of the dropship the whole time.
a) briefing, flight and the stress of a possible fight ARE a difference compared to sitting in a base.....
b) dont make things too complicated (in that case i would always move every soldier a bit... i like the idea that they get some but not much experience (but i would never shoot 100 times a wall.... ammo is expensive ^^)).
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Just a small note: Staying inside the craft isn't really safe. I got shot in there many times. Often your dropship is the only available cover (if your pilot chose a bad landing zone). So I think it's not necessary to introduce "no experience"-zones around the dropship because its not really secure even in the last corner of it. =)
Andy - who has often been pinned down in his own dropship by tons of enemy fire.
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Hmmm...
In light of that, as a side note, perhaps the RMA system for deciding map tiles needs to be improved/tweaked a little, so that the game changes or re-computes the map tiles if the dropship and alien craft initially end up right next to each other.
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@Destructavator: Of course this solution would be even better. :)
Andy
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@BTAxis:
Could we cover grenades and such by saying "if the grenade was thrown at a place within say 3 or 5 tiles of an enemy" ?
If there is an alien around, the actor is at least endangered at bit.
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@BTAxis:
Could we cover grenades and such by saying "if the grenade was thrown at a place within say 3 or 5 tiles of an enemy" ?
If there is an alien around, the actor is at least endangered at bit.
I almost agree with that, but I'd say where it detonates, not where it first hits the ground from being thrown. I've tested some missions where on the right surface (road/street in particular), my soldiers can fling grenades at aliens that bounce and skitter all the way to the other end of the map, across multiple RMA tiles! (Let's see if I can beat that gutterball... Ha! Strike! Whoops, wrong game...) :D
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Good point :) The point of detonation is the better approach. But it might be more difficult to catch codewise, not sure.