UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Artwork => Topic started by: Destructavator on March 20, 2009, 03:10:04 am
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I've gotten past the harder parts of getting a mesh out of MakeHuman and into Blender for making new soldier models that might be easier to animate, and this would also mean we would have source .blend files unlike the existing MD2 soldier models that aren't in the data source.
What I've figured out is that I can use the ShrinkWrap function in blender to make the sections (pants, shirt, etc.) and slightly displace them larger by a slight amount to make them look like clothing. So far I've just made the pants, belt, and some temporary boots (I know they look awful now, but I'll fix them), but after this point it should be relatively easy to make the other parts.
The grey model parts are part of the new model, the darker-colored body with the head is just a guide, imported from MakeHuman, and will *not* be in the final version of the model - I'm just modeling and shrinkwrapping around it, once the whole thing is done it will be deleted, leaving just the clothing and actual model (armor, boots, etc.).
I also created a female model in MakeHuman, although I didn't start working on it yet - I'll do one at a time.
Obviously this one isn't finished yet, but once I get the other sections I can try to texture the soldier body, then submit it as usual to Winter, BTAxis, etc.
I also have some ideas for adding armor in different ways, for the armor and suit types.
At some point I'll try new heads with helmets, but for now I'm just building the bodies.
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Here's one with the upper body, no hands or neck yet.
I guess this could be the start of a soldier without any armor, in case the player forgets or runs out of armor to put on a soldier...
Adding armor parts by building on top of this shouldn't be too difficult.
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Before I do the hands, are the hands of the models all one "mitten"-like piece? I know the fingers aren't individually animated, but should there even be thumbs? Or are all five digits always glued together?
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Looking at the older models, I would have to say yes, the thumb is part of the "mitten"
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Okay, then I'm guessing this model should also have the same thing for hands...
I did some work on the boots, I also decimated some parts to knock down the polycount, screenshot attached.
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Is it me, or does the torso look like a crumpled paper bag?
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Hmmm... I think you might have a point there...
Fortunately I think I can fix that with a little work.
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I did some work on the torso, also reducing the polycount more, and thought I'd give the guy a hand, two of them in fact...
Question: I'm almost to the point of adding a holster and pockets and stuff, and I can easily add shoulder patches for the logo used by the player's forces (I saw it floating around this forum somewhere), but should I also add the rectangular shoulder things for the soldier's "stripes" (bars that indicate rank)? At this point this version will eventually try to be the unarmored version - just a basic uniform, later I'll try adding to it to make versions wearing armor.
EDIT: I just noticed in the screenshot it might look like there is a strange gap under the shoulder closer to the camera - there actually isn't a gap, it really has to do with the angle of the view when I took the screenshot, the model really looks better than this - sorry for the poor screenshot. (It may vary depending on the computer screen your looking at it with.)
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Looks better now.
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...added a neck, a small holder on the belt for gear on one side, and another for a pistol on the other side.
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the shape looks nice - but you still have to clean up the mesh imo.
i don't know how to do that in blender, but max has a mirror feature. you can define an axis to mirror against. that way you only have to model one side and your stuff is always in sync.
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That's a good idea - I've seen "mirror" options in Blender's menus I haven't played with yet, I'll try that, thanks.
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All right, this one I'm more proud of, it has a sh**load less polys, is simpler so it should be easier to work with, and I re-did the feet.
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Thought I'd try out the texture controls in Blender, seeing as I've never used them before, just to learn them even though the mesh may need more work.
Hmmm... It seems I can't texture worth a da**. Then again, considering this is the very first time I've textured anything - in Blender or otherwise - I suppose it could have come out uglier, but not by much.
I already have a mental picture of how I'd like it to look, unfortunately this isn't it.
If any experienced modelers who know texturing want to offer advice, by all means please speak up.
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you can adjust the UV location. Its one of the window views....
And fewer polys isnt always better. You could put a couple more vertecies in.
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seams like you found the mirror feature ;)
as vedrit said - some more vertices wouldn't hurt - but maybe you can play around with lod models in blender, too? i would like to implement something like that in ufo - it's just that we don't have a model that would support this yet.
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To be honest I had never heard of LOD Models until you just mentioned it. After just now looking them up (Google is a nice technology, isn't it?), they sound pretty cool, and I saw in my search that Blender does support making them, but it'll take time for me to learn how to do it that way.
If the UFO: AI game engine does support this type of thing, LOD models I mean, it probably would indeed make sense to go ahead and use them in a new model if the soldier models are going to be updated/replaced anyways.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - as I understand it, with LOD the actual model stays the same, but the texture displayed over it in the game changes with distance, becoming simpler or lower resolution at farther distances, correct? I tried to find a guide on the web for LOD-type modeling that isn't too technical or difficult to follow for Blender, I haven't found one yet. (If anyone has a link, that would be great.)
I'm sure the experienced modelers out there who have done this a long time and happen to be reading this are probably laughing at me and how little I know about this right now... :D
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Well there is both lod models and lod textures.
Lod textures are usually called mipmaps and contain the texture at different resolutions (usually powers of two) to be used at different distance.
The same is also possible for models with several versions of the model in different poly counts.
But I haven't done it yet either.
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And often the hi poly model is not used at all in the game but very usefull to create normal map (per pixel lighting).
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Ok, I think I'm starting to get it now, thanks, but what I guess I should ask now is:
1) What does the game engine currently support? Meaning, should I work on a model and eventually create more than one texture file that will work with it, in different resolutions? Does the game engine support multiple possible textures like this and automatically apply the right one based on how close/far the model is from the camera?
...and,
2) If new models are going to be used in the game (with the new animations), should they all, if possible, take advantage of what the graphics engine supports with these features?
I apologize if by chance I'm misunderstanding, in which case feel free to correct me.
On a related point, I recall how sitters explained how a detailed texture could actually be created from a shot of a complex model, then taking that graphic shot and applying it onto a less-detailed physical or flat surface on a lower-poly model. (Bayo, is this close to what you were talking about?)
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mipmaps are autogenerated. different lods would be cool for the mesh. but no, we don't have support for this yet. but once you would do it, i would implement it.
not sure how you can export models from blender. but it would be e.g. possible to export the object wavefront model format with an own group for every lod mesh. it would be even possible to use yourModel_0.md2 yourModel_1.md2 or whatever. I haven't really thought about it yet. But being able to use lod meshes would allow us to use much higher polycount models for zoomed views.
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Crap, I found I had to re-work parts of the model so texturing could work. On the other hand, I'm learning...
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On a related point, I recall how sitters explained how a detailed texture could actually be created from a shot of a complex model, then taking that graphic shot and applying it onto a less-detailed physical or flat surface on a lower-poly model. (Bayo, is this close to what you were talking about?)
It only works so well. Its like putting stickers on a sword, trying to get it to look like an ax. You still need it to look like good, and taking away too many verticies and, well, you get a cube trying to be a sword trying to be an ax...
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OK, I think I've figured out how the texturing works now, this is a *temporary* texture mapped with just one graphic file, I didn't add little details yet.
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Slightly more work and cleaning up a bit.
At this point I'll also upload the .blend file somewhere for others, and Vedrit, to look at to see if I've screwed up anywhere and really need to fix something, although it still for sure needs more detail added before it can be a final product.
This one also has shoulder patches where a Phalanx logo can go.
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Here's the link:
http://www.destructavator.com/92dl/soldier_no_armor_1.blend
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yeah, the chest definatly definition. Its too flat. Import one of the older models to see how much definition you can have
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OK, I was actually planning to add stuff to the chest anyways - pockets, perhaps also a simple equipment vest or something (maybe), thanks for taking a look. Do you see anything else that needs to be reworked before adding more details?
Edit: Since that post I've found a few glitches here and there that I've fixed, a texture on the wrong side of one small face, and a few vertexes in odd places that I moved to make the model look a little better.
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Nope, Looked preatty good
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Ok I just loaded the model to see why the texture looks off and realised that you didn't even bother with the UV wrap. So that was probably just to give an example look?
But i noticed that you have internal polys, some are the mirror pane and a lot are in the belt area. Some are in the elbows.
You could also loose some polys by welding the belt pouches directly to the hip. (No one will notice the gaps at distance anyway)
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Ok I just loaded the model to see why the texture looks off and realised that you didn't even bother with the UV wrap. So that was probably just to give an example look?
But i noticed that you have internal polys, some are the mirror pane and a lot are in the belt area. Some are in the elbows.
You could also loose some polys by welding the belt pouches directly to the hip. (No one will notice the gaps at distance anyway)
Well, as I said earlier, this is the first time - ever, in any modeling program - that I've started adding a texture to a model, this isn't something I've done for a long time like some of the other people who have been to this forum. Since that last screenshot and .blend file I posted here I've been doing more work on it, and quite honestly I've only started reading through guides and tutorials on the net on textures in Blender.
...So at this point, yes, this is just a "quick-and-dirty" example, and the whole model texture will eventually be re-done with a better and more detailed one.
By the way, DuKe2112, I noticed you removed your first reply post which had a little helpful information, in particular the example graphic.
I'm working on learning it, it'll get there eventually (Please have patience).
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oh yeah well, I thought at firrst that you had done it wrong and I wanted to correct you, then I noticed that you didn't really try in the first place and removeed that.
But you're right that was probably usefull. so here the grafik again.
A wrap like the one on the left makes it a lot easyer to match up the textures over the edges.
Usually you want to unwrap as much continuos area as possible without causing large distortions in the border area
Of course you can map like on the right, and sometimes you actually want to. When it is a different material anyway or you want to use the texture area better. And at least one cut is always necessary anyway.
And another point in the mesh you posted i that you especially modelled the shoulder patches and the stripes on the boots. If you want to add more detail that's fine, but you keep it rather flat you might be able to remove those polys and just do it with the texture.
And besides I probably haven't done more modeling then you (;
I'm still working on my first real project. Surprisingly a human as well.
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Oh here is the guy as he is now, in case he is usefull.
www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/human_base_01.blend
He is supposed to be extremely anatomical for a relatively low poly count. SO it might be a while before I finish him.
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OK, I'm glad these issues were brought up, especially the internal polys, as I've re-worked the mesh from head (actually neck) to toe and found that about half the polys were from messy, internal garbage that just really didn't need to be there when I slammed together various sections, as well as duplicate vertexes, etc.
After all that, now I think it's ready for some details such as a holster and other little stuff.
I also did some studying on textures in Blender and how to UV Wrap and stuff, and soon I'll get there - I think I know how to do it now but I just need to get it done, something I should have time for soon.
I've also got ideas for versions with armor that I think would look much nicer than some of the existing armored models, but I'm not there yet.
(The .zip is the .blend file as it is at this stage.)
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you are coming along ;)
the arms still need some more work imo and keep in mind that the legs and arms must be rigged and animated. please prepare the polygons at the locations (e.g. the knees) - it doesn't look like that is done already.
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Hey Destructavator, just wondering how its going with the model
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It's goin', just not as fast as I'd like it to.
I had to clean up an infection that sneaked onto my computer (I backup everything, so nothing is lost), and creating the vest on the soldier without it looking like crap has proven to be a bit tedious and more difficult than I thought it would be.
Part of the problem is that I'm not fully sure of how I want the end-result to look, which I think makes the modeling a bit more difficult.
I'm wondering if simply adding pockets to the uniform would look better...
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Yeah, I find that all my work is either too fast or too slow.
There have been a few viruses going around
Well, we could probably do something similar to what was done to previous models, and just have the pockets as part of the texture, and the vest as the equipable armor. Trashman has volunteered to do add-ons (Armor, etc), so when the model is good to go, we can pass it around, get some stuff done, and get a new model in-game. Sound cool?
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Yeah, that sounds like a good idea - I'll start finishing up the rest of the model, the vest would be an add-on, etc.
That would certainly make this much easier for me and get things moving quicker.
I'll get to work on it tonight and parts of tomorrow if necessary.
Question: Is anyone available here that is good with model texture-making? Or is that an area I'd have to do myself once the shape is finished? I've already figured out some of the UV-wrapping stuff, texture groups, and seams, but I'm not very good at it yet.
FYI - The latest version of GIMP has a very easy-to-use camouflage generator that works very quickly, if someone else wants to do the texture. Otherwise, if no one volunteers I guess I'll do it myself...
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I dont know how good you are with the UV-unwrap, but I could load it into Maya, where I have quite a bit of experiance doing UV texturing.
Actually....come to think of it, I could probably fix the old model in Maya. Can we do 2 seperate male soldier models?
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Sure, if you have more experience with this and can help get this moving quicker, go for it - attached in the .zip are two .blend files that are the most recent before I "ruined" things trying to add a vest. One is just a half, which can be mirrored to make a complete model.
I've gotta warn you though, both of these still have a few issues, with a slightly mucked up neck, a belt that's too thin, and... uh, well, you'll see when you open the files and start working on them... :P
BTW, if it turns out you can get a working model completed quicker and better than I do, based upon these, I'll let you go ahead and pick a license that will fit with the game - I'm not going to bother with protecting these models in their current form with any restrictions, it just isn't worth it. (If any of the devs want to be meticulous with the licensing thing, I guess in the credits you could say "started by Destructavator" for anything based upon these models.)
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I updated and fixed some more stuff with this one:
- Many internal polys and edges were removed
- Many unnecessary vertexes, extra details on the surface that weren't needed are merged and simplified
- Places where joints will be, especially elbows and knees, are more clearly defined
- Seams have added in places in preparation for texture groups, when I get to creating a texture
- I fixed the mucked-up neck, which was messy before
- I did some work on the arms to make them look better
- I thickened the belt which was too thin before
I feel this one is almost ready for texturing, and then adding a skeleton for animation.
Edit: Since posting the attached .blend file and screenshot I've also fixed an issue with the back of the torso.
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Hmmm... I did a quick test of the texture groups to see if they would work, and they do, but they don't look anywhere near as good as I'd like them to.
If anyone good at texturing wants to step in with this version, feel free to speak up - Apparently I'm not very good in this area.
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IMHO, you should divide the body in half... makes it easier to texture it - just mirror. Also saves space and you can put more detail in the texture map.
As for unwrapping the body itself to get a nice surface for texturing...eh. Can't help you there. Didn't figure that one out myself.
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Doom3 models are often not splited, then maybe its not need at all.
And maybe the UFO:AI engine can't support more than one texture per model. For example model skin we see on the GUI are custom by an only one cvar (then only one texture?). But i am not sure.
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Destructavator: for the hipoly and normal map, i talk about http://www.astahost.com/info.php/Normal-Maps-Blender_t19493.html
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Ah! Thanks for the link, bayo, that cleared up my understanding of that concept.
As for the model, I've got a few more updates, hang on a sec...
OK, this version has a few more minor corrections, a skeleton, and I think the camo looks slightly better on this one but I feel it still needs substantial work.
Edit: Some of the grey things sticking out are the skeleton armature for animation, they of course won't be rendered in the game.
Before going on too much further, perhaps Winter and/or BTAxis could discuss what types of decorations and extras should be on the model? (hoslters, pockets, pouches, etc.) - Rather than me trying to make something and then just asking "How does this look?"
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I think it looks good. I'll start animating, unless someone has some complaints
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The basic soldier model isn't that important. Players are going to be equipping them with armour most of the time anyway, so spending too much time on it isn't advisable. As long as it looks suitable soldierly, it should be fine.
So that's basically the big issue from now on. Given a new base model and animations for it, we're going to need these animations applied to the armoured soldiers too. I don't know anything about modeling, so I don't know if that's even possible with our current models. Maybe they need to be redone?
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In theory, the armored soldier should be fine without re-working the animation, though it would probably need some fine tuning so you dont get armor joints bending illogically.
As for the current models, from what I see, the female soldier also has the incomplete animation, aswell as the taman, and the sheevar, and the ortnok
Dunno what else there is.....But this is going to be the male soldier all over again....
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I tried myself - before Vedrit came to the forum, to make new animations with the existing models, I couldn't get them to look good. I have a feeling that if there are going to be new armor types and new animations, we'll need to replace the existing soldier models sooner or later, and I'd say sooner would probably be better.
If this latest version is acceptable as a base model - not actually used in-game, but something new models for every armor type is based upon, I'd be OK with it for anyone to grab the .zip file with the blender file inside of it (in that attachment), pick one of the armor types, and start making a version of it to use in the game. (And as for my work on it, I'd be happy to stop here for now.)
As for the texture, every version based upon it would have a new texture created anyways.
So, BTAxis, if it's OK to go with this for a base, just say so, and Vedrit could start working on animations that could be applied to all the versions built from this.
P.S. - If we go with this, what license would be best for this base model?
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Even if animation starts now, we could always add details to the model without too much trouble, couldn't we? As far as I can see the model is decent enough, though of course we'll want a better texture.
About the animation, we'd also like a prone animation to be made so we can add that to the game. There are no arrangements for this anywhere, so maybe mattn should comment about how to go about it.
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Even if animation starts now, we could always add details to the model without too much trouble, couldn't we?
Yes, that's the idea.
As far as I can see the model is decent enough, though of course we'll want a better texture.
As I said in my previous post, when the model is altered to add details (for each armor type), the whole thing will end up being re-textured anyways.
About the animation, we'd also like a prone animation to be made so we can add that to the game. There are no arrangements for this anywhere, so maybe mattn should comment about how to go about it.
I recall discussing this with Vedrit, who as I understand is prepared to make prone, crawling, and ladder-climbing animations as well as others. I also suggested a new standing "idle" animation so that standing soldiers don't look like they're bobbing up-and-down in some synchronized "dance" like they do now. (Perhaps multiple animations cycled at random, with delays could do the trick.) Vedrit also had some other ideas, I believe.
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Okay, sounds cool.
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something that I noticed with Blender, is that once you start animating, you have to modify each verticie in each frame. Thats the issue I ran into with the older models and the incomplete animation.
There's surely a better way, but where Blender is the second modeling/animating program I use, I dont know it, and I cant find an accpetable file type for a go-between for Maya, the first program I learned.
However, I can think of an alternative, something I should have been doing already. I can make the skeleton, animate, and save as a seperate file. Doing this, I can import the skeleton and attach it, and never have to worry about re-creating the skeleton and animations for modifications to the model, aside from fine tuning. It also allows for added safety, should the finished product go corrupt.
I'll make a thread where people can suggest animations. Anything they can think of that would be good for UFO AI, and keep an updated list at the top of the thread
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Actually it's not that hard with Blender, you don't have to change every single vertex, just rotate the bones and insert a "key" or whatever it is called for each animation.
In other words, as an example, you can start with a starting pose, then press the "I" key (that's the key between "h" and "j" in the alphabet) in the first frame and choose "location and rotation" to *lock* the skeleton in place. Then, after advancing several frames and setting up a new pose, select the skeleton again and press "I" again, same options, to lock a new keyframe. It's actually a very fast and easy procedure once you've done it a few times.
If you want, I've actually done a little animation myself, and I can do a quick sample animation and upload it for you to play with.
I've also got screen recording software, I could easily make a little vid if that helps.
This might be easier than the method you are proposing.
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No, the list of animations should be kept to that which fits the intended feature set of the game. Which means what we've got now, plus prone, plus ladders. Plus firing from the shoulder, except I am to understand that's in fact part of what we've got. Anyway, people suggesting animations isn't a good idea, because animations we're not going to use anyway will result in that much extra work for nothing - on every actor model.
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Destrucavator: Thats animating a finished model, not modifying an animated model. I tried it with the current male model, and, organic modeling skill aside, it didnt work.
BTAxis: Not every suggestion will be a good one, and, yes, many of the animations will only be for humandoid characters (Taman, Ortnok, human, etc), but I say its better to volunteer better work than require basic. Id rather do extra work on my own free will than have to come back later for animations that werent first put in, but decided to be put in later.
And, if I may say so, there are many combat animations that are lacking (Already put up the thread, and listed some there)
And we could put in some funny animations to be included in idleing (EX: When hiring people, someone could pick his/her nose, or run their fingers through their hair), to add some life to it
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My point was that the more animations you put on your list, the more are in actuality going to have to be made. In case you haven't noticed, animation work is among the least provided around here, and we're having a hard time completing the list as it is with a bare-bones set.
Now, I realize you're something of an animation volunteer, but what if you disappear? Who's going to take over? Nobody, that's who, and there's a great risk of us getting stuck with an only partially finished animation set that we'd have to trim down again out of necessity. So what I'm saying is, it's better to go for and complete those animations that are strictly needed. Only after that is the sky the limit.
Add to that my earlier statement that randomly suggested animations may never actually be used, meaning the animator will have spent time and effort for nothing. Even if you make an animation for a soldier riding a bike doesn't mean there will be any such situation in the game!
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Once Ive started putting work into something, I dont stop unless either its been canceled or I am no longer needed. I could give you my cell number, if that makes you feel better.
As it stands right now, the list IS basic animations. Movement, changing positions, combat in the different positions, climbing. I dont know what your definition of "basic" is, but to me, that is it.
And I understand where your coming from. Anything other than what is absolutely needed will be put on the end of the animation list.
Side note: You know, BTAxis, me and you seem to disagree on quite a few things. Just thought that was kinda funny. Not good, but still a little funny
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I'm not questioning your dedication, if that's what you think. But I've been in this project for years, and I know how it goes. Things happen. You might be needed elsewhere in life due to unforeseen circumstances, that sort of thing. I'm trying to err on the safe side, is all.
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I understand, but its not like I'll never have any amount of spare time in which I could work on animations.
As someone in my position, its a good idea to never leave anything unfinished or poorly done, becuase it could be used to get a fancy, shiney job.
Incase anyone didnt know, the 3D arts (Games, movies, w/e) is really quite competitive. Everything you do can either help or ruin your cereer
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Well, if you can follow through with all this then you're probably the best thing to happen to the project in ages, and all my objections are void. Just, you know, trying to keep it real. Keeping it real is pretty important in a project such as this.
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And heres the cool thing: I only need to make one set of animated bones for all the humanoid characters, tweak it a little, and there we go. Anything else, yes, will require a new set, but for the most part, one set will take care of a lot of work. So once an animation list is done, I can set to work
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In that case I'm going to leave you to go about your business. As for non-standard animations, I can think of: the alien hoverbot, the Breeder, the Bloodspider (has animations, but maybe needs additional/redone ones?), the alien heavy weapons platform we want to add (no firm design there at all yet, though, just some raw ideas), the UGVs, the jumpsuit (flying animations that aren't needed for any other humanoid model) and possibly a death animation for the alien wormhole device.
This is offtopic, though. Will paste this to the animation thread.
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I read some things about IK solver for blender, dont know if its helpful
http://www.katsbits.com/htm/tutorials/blender_ik_set_up.htm
At worst it show we can do interesting things with Blender skeleton.