UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: nemchenk on February 09, 2008, 12:01:13 am
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Hi All,
I'm still reading through the "back issues", so forgive me if this has been asked 10,000 times before and I've just not stumbled upon it yet :D Is there a roadmap for more physical, hand-to-hand type of attacks? I love that Knives are in, and I take it Stun Sticks make an appearance, but playing XCOM I often wished I could just twat the alien standing in front of one of my guys with the butt of a rifle.
Are there any plance for more melee firemodes for the various weapons? Punch/Kick for unarmed soldiers, Bludgeon and Bayonet with a Rifle or maybe SMG, Pistolwhip, etc ;D I know it sounds a bit evil, but surely when the going gets tough, a soldier uses anything and everything to hand?
nemchenk
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Yes, impliment it all. I seriously want to go Bruce Lee on the aliens.
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Hi nemchenk,
I want to see some reaction fire from my soldier's boots, too. ;)
As long as they don't answer with kerrblades...
Will other weapons than knifes and kerrblades be of any use in melee? A rifle would be an advantage in man-to-man combat even if the ammo is depleted.
That would require an additional button (or fire mode) if an alien stands close to a soldier but it would definitely add some fun. ;D
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Heheh, reaction fire from boots, yesss.... ;D
Surrealistik, care to share? ;) Or is it in SVN? I see it's as easy as adding a new firedef {} to weapons_human.ufo ;D I like!
nemchenk
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No animations for most of it though, but if you're content with using an animation for something else, there's no reason why it wouldn't work.
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Hmm, this could be very cool, but I think it should be low on the priority list. Anyway, I guess to make it realistic (like real soldiers melee), you could have fighting - go martial arts on those Tamans, since they look easy to take, but also wrestle, since there's no way to beat up an Ortnok, but wrestling him could take that particle cannon out of play for a few turns. Of course, wrestling an Ortnok would be harsh on your HP, especially if he decides to smack you around a bit before going back to that cannon of his.
On the other hand cracking some Taman ribs could get you an early live alien... Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Yes, impliment it all. I seriously want to go Bruce Lee on the aliens.
LOL, I misread this and thought you said "implemented", as in you've already done it ::) Aren't I a silly goose?
Well, if anyone wants to see them, I've got "Bludgeon" and "Bayonet" on my weapons ;) No Kick/Punch yet, as I've not figured out how to do that for an empty hand -- probably will need some hacking on the game engine...
But if you want to pistol-whip or bludgeon your foes, give me a shout and I'll upload some patches.
Cheers,
nemchenk
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I imagine the easiest way to implement hand-to-hand combat would be to make a tiny item, such as brass knuckles, and add all the desired weapon modes to that. The item could be the size of a grenade, so it won't be too bad on space. Also, you could justify this in-game as, "An unarmed human would break their hand punching an alien, only through the use of ____ would hand-to-hand combat be possible."
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I've posted Patch #1893638 (http://"http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1893638&group_id=157793&atid=805244") on SF, if anyone wants to try it out :) For 2.2.x only at the moment. Here's the summary:
I've added "Bludgeon" as a firemode to all Human weapons (TODO: give the
Aliens the same ability?) to give a little bit of bloodthirsty realism,
John Woo-style :D The damage is "blast", easily stopped by armour but good
against unarmoured targets.
A summary of the attacks:
Knife, Stab (for comparison): 4TU, 20-40 dmg "steelblade"
Pistol & MP: 4TU, 5-35 dmg "blast"
SMG & Mini-shotgun: 5TU, 10-40 dmg "blast"
Assault Rifle/Civvie Shotgun/Bolter: 6TU, 20-50 dmg "blast"
Heavy weapons: 8TU, 25-55 dmg "blast"
V. Heavy weapons (minigun & RPG): 14TU, 30-60 dmg "blast"
Any comments or feedback on playability most welcome :)
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Something really neat would be if certain weapons could be used as a defensive reaction to melee attacks. Someone with a rifle, knife, monoblade, kerrblade, or stunrod would attempt to parry or block an incoming melee attack, independent of reaction fire. Of course, blocking a kerrblade with a sniper rifle would probably break the rifle, but that would give another reason to equip secondary weapons.
(Skills involved would be Speed and CC vs. Strength and CC)
Of course, that's a somewhat drastic gameplay change, and much harder than simply adding a normal attack firemode to weapons.
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Yeah, I was just playing with the scripts at first :) But, I was thinking about putting Reaction fire options back in for these -- that way you could at least smack the Alien with your rifle butt before he gets his Kerrblade attack in (if you were quick/lucky enough.)
I think I'll put those in and re-upload the patch...
PS. Any comments on the damage or TU balance? Too much, too little?
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PS. Any comments on the damage or TU balance? Too much, too little?
IMHO they are definately too deadly. First off all, there is no way you can swing your rifle as fast as you are shooting. Secondly unless you hit your opponent in a weak spot, like face, stomach or groin, you aren`t going to hurt him very much. Thus the damage should be of stun type and very low maybe with high variation (so it may happen that you hit him hard, but it shouldn`t be a rule). If this is implemented, such attack should have a possibility of knocking down your opponent. In all honesty however, I don`t think it`s worth the effort.
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Thanks for your feedback -- much appreciated :)
I agree -- they are too deadly. But, so is a knife -- 4TUs for up to 60 damage?! But, if the hand-to-hand attacks took longer, nobody would use them at all. Why bother when you can pull the trigger?
I agree on Stun as well, but that would make the Stun Rod pointless -- why bother researching it when you can beat the aliens into submission :D I think we need a 50/50 damage type, which stuns but can also kill by accident. Take a look at the mix-n-match Damage Types proposal in Design, and see what you think.
nemchenk
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I agree -- they are too deadly. But, so is a knife -- 4TUs for up to 60 damage?! But, if the hand-to-hand attacks took longer, nobody would use them at all. Why bother when you can pull the trigger?
Yep, I think knife should be rather 6TU/40 dmg or even slower:) There is a reason, why it`s not used very often in RL....
I agree on Stun as well, but that would make the Stun Rod pointless -- why bother researching it when you can beat the aliens into submission I think we need a 50/50 damage type, which stuns but can also kill by accident. Take a look at the mix-n-match Damage Types proposal in Design, and see what you think.
That`s probably the best idea :) . Trying to stun the aliens early game by hammering them with rifles sounds really fun :D
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Yeah, I think quite a few people are excited by the prospect of going mano-a-tamaan early on in the game :D
I was thinking -- maybe make melee attacks have a damage spread of 0-x? Because you don't even have to hit at the moment (not looked through code so don't know for sure...), so they are kinda very deadly. Especially with seemingly no RF from the aliens...
So, something like Knife, Stab: 4TU, 0-40 "steelblade"?
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I dont think that these firemodes were too deadly, actually most of them have a quite awful dam/TU if i did my maths right...and you have to think about the fact, that you have to go face to face, additionally losing TUs. The main point why i would not included blunt attacks is, that they would make other melee weapons worthless...why bother changing weapons for close combat...
Yep, I think knife should be rather 6TU/40 dmg or even slower:) There is a reason, why it`s not used very often in RL....
And why should it be included into the game, if it is useless?
The way i...ERROR OCCURRED!
EDIT: ARRGH!! I really have to find out, what error is messing up my posts!
The way I see it, melee weapons definitely need some punch, so it is usefull to have them...perhaps even 60dam/4 TUs....
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...Didn't finish your sentence...
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I dont think that these firemodes were too deadly, actually most of them have a quite awful dam/TU if i did my maths right...and you have to think about the fact, that you have to go face to face, additionally losing TUs. The main point why i would not included blunt attacks is, that they would make other melee weapons worthless...why bother changing weapons for close combat...
And why should it be included into the game, if it is useless?
As the ufopedia says - when you run out of ammo, a knife is a better option than going vs aliens barehanded... :D I simply prefer realistic approach, knife shouldn`t be a weapon of same value as a gun. One can use it beacuse of necessity or for coolness factor but IMHO it takes away the game "climate" if gutting the aliens becomes viable tactics.
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As the ufopedia says - when you run out of ammo, a knife is a better option than going vs aliens barehanded... :D I simply prefer realistic approach, knife shouldn`t be a weapon of same value as a gun. One can use it beacuse of necessity or for coolness factor but IMHO it takes away the game "climate" if gutting the aliens becomes viable tactics.
Seriously, how often have you run out of ammo? Most of the time, my whole backpack is empty, cause there is no need for additional ammo. The starting clip and one additional clip is absolutely sufficient (exception Rocket Launcher). If you really wanted to come to the point where ammo is scarce, there would have to be much more aliens on the map.
And even if I ran out of ammo: The first priority is to stay alive. So if I have lets say 10 TUs left and I stand 2 hexes away from an alien, I always run for cover atm, cause there is no chance of killing that alien with my knife right now.
I agree to the fact, that melee weapons should not be as effective as guns, but the need some edge, so they actually might be used.
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I think 3 things may be screwing up Melee weapons in 2.2.x:
1) I have never got RF from an Alien. Ever. I've played maybe 30 missions now. I think maybe the AI is not reserving TUs for RF.
2) Phalanx agents seem to be *very* accurate. I rarely miss, but then I tend to get my guys within 2-3 squares by using cover, and then Burst fire from point-blank range... Maybe the maps offer a bit too much cover, or it could be that without RF, it is easy to get from one bit of cover to the next.
3) Armour is not implemented, AFAIK, so most starting weapons can take down an alien in one or two shots/bursts/etc. If you had to empty entire clips to take an armoured alien down, you would be running out of ammo.
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Armour works very well but for some reason someone decided it to be very weak against firearms that can burst. For the first alien armour I have set a protection value of 30 against all firearms save for bolter and sniper rifle. That means. taht the only human sidearms able to penetrate it are P-12 pistol (35 +/-17 dmg) and combat knife (40 +/-20 dmg). Makes the game much more challenging. I also made it so that medium alien armour is almost completely bulletproof with protection value of 80. It gives you the nice "oh shit!" feeling, when a point blank cannonade from bolter rifle doesn`t seem to scratch it :D
Check this out:
// =======================
// ALIEN ARMOURS
// =======================
//weights 100
item light_alien
{
name "_Alien Body Armour"
image armour/taman_light
model aliens/tamanlight/body01
type armour
shape "0 0 3 4"
center "0 0 -5"
scale 0.7
price 1400
size 50
buytype armour
useable 1
//TODO: TU penalty value. No support for this yet.
protection {
normal_light 30
normal_medium 30
normal_heavy 20
normal_spray 9
steelblade 10
monomolecularblade 5
blast 35
fire_medium 10
fire_heavy 10
fire_flamer 1
shock 0
plasma_light 20
plasma_medium 50
plasma_heavy 80
laser_light 20
laser_medium 10
laser_heavy 5
particlebeam_light 5
particlebeam_medium 1
particlebeam_heavy 1
stun 0
}
rating {
normal 30
steelblade 10
monomolecularblade 5
blast 35
fire 10
shock 0
plasma 50
laser 15
particlebeam 1
stun 10
}
}
//weights 120
item medium_alien
{
name "_Medium Alien Armour"
image armour/taman_medium
model aliens/tamanmedium/body01
type armour
shape "0 0 3 4"
center "0 0 -5"
scale 0.7
price 7500
size 75
buytype armour
useable 1
//TODO: TU penalty value. No support for this yet.
protection {
normal_light 100
normal_medium 100
normal_heavy 80
normal_spray 12
steelblade 60
monomolecularblade 10
blast 40
fire_medium 40
fire_heavy 40
fire_flamer 4
shock 10
plasma_light 10
plasma_medium 30
plasma_heavy 50
laser_light 30
laser_medium 20
laser_heavy 10
particlebeam_light 40
particlebeam_medium 30
particlebeam_heavy 20
stun 10
}
rating {
normal 90
steelblade 60
monomolecularblade 10
blast 40
fire 20
shock 10
plasma 30
laser 20
particlebeam 30
stun 10
}
}
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I agree to the fact, that melee weapons should not be as effective as guns, but the need some edge, so they actually might be used.
How about disabling ranged attacks if the enemy stands next to you? The one thing, I really liked about tabletop games, like WH40K and etc. is how you can tie your opponent in hand-to-hand combat, so that he won`t be able to fire his omgpwnzor heavy bolter in your face.
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Wohoo! You could do Bruce Lee-kick in Duke Nukem 3D in addition of the other kick = kicking with two feet at the same time! ;D
Umm, did I go offtopic?
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I don't think you should skimp on the melee damage. A good crack to the ribs is going to put you in more hurt then anything short of a hallow point or cannon round. I like the stun damage part though.
Why should the guns make with the blunt force trauma? Hint: Swords, flails, and maces where not abandoned because they weren't gruesomely effective at killing.They where abandoned because it was easier to "shoot someone dead" someone before they could make use of the implements of pain.
Edit: Odd the bolt rifles wouldn't do massive damage. The description says they do, and they should have a higher muzzle velocity then the assault rifle.
***The squeamish need not read further***
I'm sorry, but your not going to beat the sheer damage of someone's head being forceably crushed by a flail, being cleaved in two by claymore(The two-handed one, before someone get else else goes nerd on me and ask which claymore.), or your gut being put though the blender with a short sword. The modern age has the stopping power, but your not going to beat the sheer collateral damage of the dark ages. There are sets of circumstances stances you can survive a gun shot to the head; The bullet following the outside of the skull, instead of going into it. You're not going to survive your rib cage or head suddenly being collapses to the width of a pancake. Neither the sudden destruction of you gut, with acid oozing everywhere.
Edit 2: Think of how a good sharp knife will slice though a tomato and you'll feel almost no resistance. How apply that to the human body. Hollywood doesn't show you anything, a battle field in the dark ages would have limbs everywhere and the ground red with small streams of blood flowing down hill.
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Panthera Leo, so your approach would be to increase the damage done from hand-to-hand attacks, but increase their TU usage as well? I mean, landing a blow with said claymore is going to take considerably longer than lining up a shot and squeezing the trigger.
Also, in your comparison of swords v guns, you neglect to consider the effect of shockwaves and tumble. Even without hollow-point ammo, modern firearms do some very nasty things to the human body.
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I served in the infantry twenty years ago, and bayonets were still being issued. Besides the frequent shooting practice, there also was occasional hand-to-hand practice. The idea is not that soldiers would charge into action intending to stab the other guy, but that the bayonet and rifle butt would be available as a last line of defense when things go bad. There are clearly some tradeoffs going on here: the bayonet is not as effective as the Claymore, but it doesn't weigh so much nor take up as much space. The main focus is clearly on the guns, the melee stuff is there as a backup.
Besides running out of ammunition, the other frequent uses of hand-to-hand are: 1) the firearm is jammed or otherwise out of commission; or 2) somebody suddenly jumps around the corner [or otherwise surprises you] at point blank range. It is MUCH quicker to slash or smash than to aim a longarm. #1 isn't an issue in this game, because of abstraction - there aren't critical hits or critical misses like in other games. #2 doesn't really happen in this game, again due to abstraction - the turn based system does away with issues of 'who goes first'.
If you're going to go ahead and implement unarmed combat, let me suggest another way of looking at damage: other than a rare case [critical hit] punching and kicking shouldn't kill the opponent. Other than knocking someone out [stun] the effect might be to "take his breath away". In game terms, this could be done similar to flashbang [take away his TUs]. If it could be done, i would also suggest that longarms [rifles, heavy weapons, etc.] not be allowed to fire [or have a steep penalty] at point blank range - pistols and other short weapons should be immune to this. I think this last suggestion would be hard to code.
I really like the idea of wrestling aliens to the ground. As long as the target is not significantly bigger/heavier than the wrestler, pinning somebody to the ground is a realistic way of capturing them. Well, maybe not a Bloodspider. I don't think it's a deal breaker to allow this to happen before the invention of the Stun Rod - it's not going to be successful very often and is likely to be more dangerous than using the Stun Rod. It would require the wrestler to have both hands free, and possibly another skill/proficiency. It might take more than one turn to complete. Needless to say, the target shouldn't be allowed to use ANY firearms while being grappled.
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Panthera Leo, so your approach would be to increase the damage done from hand-to-hand attacks, but increase their TU usage as well? ...
No, My approach to give existing weapons a very harmful to deadly point plant attack, or make extremely deadly modern melee weapons(kerrblade?). Granted their are weapons that can hit you with such sheer force that even a hit in the foot can transfer a large enough shock-wave to kill you outright just from that.
The large showy two-handed weapons would be out of the question, but look at what the Romans did. From behind their shields they'd advance in a phalanx and an execute a quick attack with their short sword, the Gladius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius) (A tactic they used to great effect in their campaigns, once they got that close.) , and be ready to stab the next person before you hit the ground. All from the "safety" of behind their shield, no fancy sword fights. You where not getting up after they stabed you, it was game over after one hit...
Even S.W.A.T shields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield) today as mobile full body cover, or the police in crowd control. Sense you asked, no, I'd make some massively damaging roman style weapons. They'd be quick, lethal, and some even being able to be thrown, just to bulky to be used with standard modern weapons.
Maybe reinvent a plasma weapon to be able to fire off rounds, then turn around a make a mono-filament plasma blade using something like technology that plasma windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window) do.
Edit: though in general practice I'd rather shoot my enemy from long range, preferable before they knew I was there.
Edit2: Better, yet, modify the plasma grenades into a shape charge to make a blast-wave type attack, or a arc that could (burn/cut) though almost anything. Having massive stopping power and either being too big or too fast to dodge effectively.
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Panthera, there is a level of abstraction here that I think you are missing -- someone being stabbed by a gladius is not going to just stand there and take it. They will be parrying and dodging, moving out of the way.
Someone being shot with a 9mm bullet will be going down to the floor. No dodge, no parry.
This is why I mentioned the larger TU costs -- to reflect the fact that hand-to-hand is not stabbing a straw sack. What you are proposing would turn this game into a hack-n-slash game. Another question -- if Roman short swords were so effective, how come special forces units the world over are using automatic weapons instead?
I prefer the "no shooting at point-blank range with longarms" solution, myself.
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...They where abandoned because it was easier to "shoot someone dead" someone before they could make use [them]...
...The modern age has the stopping power, but your not going to beat the sheer collateral damage of the dark ages....
...They will be parrying and dodging, moving out of the way...
I have no desire to see UFO:AI turned into a Might-and-Magic game (they almost always had some kind of super tech hiding somewhere.)
We'll both romanticizing it, but I think you more so, the Gladius wasn't designed for a sword fight, parrying or anything else. It was a glorified precursor to the bayonet? It wasn't a sword in the classical sense of the word. You stab with it, that was about it. If you got in a RPG style sword fight with a Gladius, outside another short sword, you're dead or very good.
Outside spear's it's most famous use, that I know of, was a phalanx. A line of shielded soldier would make "lighting fast" thrust from behind the shield at the enemy*. The target didn't have much of a recourse to party or dodge, in a pure infantry battle your options where:
1.Out flank the phalanx.
2.Get out of the way, run.
3.Die(Stand your ground in any way shape or form. A second phalanx just means they die as well).
I'm no expert on Roman history, but it the day's equivalent of the SMG. We use SMG instead of short swords today because the SMG can do more total damage at a longer range, not because the chucks of iron or steel was not more deadly.
Just in case you are squeamish, again, something you may not want to read, sorry.
*The Gladius was tailor made to be used almost exclusively as a tool to make upward thrusts from the belly into the chest cavity. That's it. Thinking about it, it was nothing more then a glorified bayonet.
Edit, visual picture:
Did you ever see Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers? At one point during the siege of helm's deep the Uruk-hai(the big orcs) where marching up the ramp to batter the front gate in? Remember how they had their shields positioned? Not a perfect example, but there is a visual example of how a phalanx works. (I know they got flanked by the archers on the wall.)
Why am I in awe of melee weapons? You unload a few clips of a automatic rifle into someone, even if you can't aim that well, it's a safe bet their going to be dead. Given the choice of that or a sword, I'd pick the rifle; However, we turn a corner at the same, and one of us has a short sword, the other will be dead.
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Well, I can't agree with you there. Neither the Roman Legion, nor the Phalanx, were the unstoppable war machines that you describe. Sure, if you stab a sack of straw with a spear or a short sword, you will "kill" it instantly. If you stab a man with a shield and a sword, it all depends on how good you are vs how good he is.
A bullet travels at hypersonic speeds. A stabbing sword or spear is much slower. Ipso Facto: you can do something about an incoming melee attack (dodge, parry), you really can't against a bullet. Unless you are Agent Smith.
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Now, back to the discussion on melee damage and TUs. We have several choices here:
- Make melee attacks fast or slow
- Make melee attack damage high or low
- Make melee attack damage spread tight or loose
At the momnet, I favour fast attacks with either low damage or a large spread. Fast attacks with a low damage means that while you can kill your target with melee, you will give him multiple opportunity for Reaction Fire. Seems like a nice balance of game mechanics to me, preventing this turning into.
Another mechanic which would be nice is giving Primary weapons (longarms and heavy weapons) a minimum range of 1 square, so that it is impossible to shoot at targets right up against you with those weapons.
What do you think? Lets try and stay on-course :)
nemchenk
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The main point why i would not included blunt attacks is, that they would make other melee weapons worthless...why bother changing weapons for close combat...
Because of their damage type. You want a guarantee to stun someone, use the stun stick. You want to kill someone, use the knife. The blunt attacks are nowhere as good at either task.
Would you agree?
nemchenk
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Melee weapons are practically useless in this game... if you have any thing else at your disposal, you will use it first. The only way that a knife would be lethal is with some degree of stealth coming into play, say sneaking up behind an alien undetected...not to mention we are suggesting that alien anatomy is just like ours... most of the aliens have some kind or natural armor... or if they are wearing armor that is effective vs. bullets... do you really think a knife is going through at a much slower velocity than a bullet?
The argument of melee weapons from history being more brutally effective than modern day firearms is absurd. The invention of the crossbow and the longbow brought new standards to medieval warfare, sure swords are effective, but the counter to a sword was armor, plate mail in fact... you know what really changed all that? Firearms... bullets made armor ineffective... now with new armor being developed, the latest will stop multiple assault rifle rounds, it's weaponry's turn to evolve.
I agree with making melee weapons fast, with a low TU count, and damage being low... one stab...much like one 9mm round won't drop a person, unless you get really lucky, and I also think that long guns should have a range restriction, making them less useful in close combat... but you should also take into consideration that long weapons make great hand-to-hand weapons for blocking knives, or delivering blunt trauma, which could possibly stun an opponent.
You could always make it so that the only effective weapons at adjoining spaces could be knives... everything else could have a minimum firing distance, else it makes little sense in using a knife when I could put a full auto assault rifle burst into them from 3 inches away.
-Burns77
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I did make long-arm Bludgeon attacks better than pistol-whipping, to represent their improved usability as melee weapons. I should probably drop pistol-whip--like attacks a bit more -- they really are not as useful as a smack with a rifle butt.
I'm not sure if you were referring to Panthera Leo's point or mine about the knife being lethal/non-lethal. I meant it was more lethal than blunt damage, e.g. a rifle butt.
I'll see about another version of the patch, with the melee attacks being quicker but less damaging...
nemchenk
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Sorry, got a little too attached, so I took a brake. I did derail of more then a bit. My over all point? Guns a neat, but melee weapons are lethal as such should be greatly feared as such. A good rifle should be the preferred weapon, but never the de facto end all weapon. Melee shouldn't be a side note, maybe a burden, never a side note.
I guess they should be fast over anything else. I'm just thinking whatever form it takes, it should be well worth it. I know it puts a crimp in balance and seems odd, but don't under estimate a sharp blade as anything less awesome in its killing power. (As in the kerrblade being able to slice someone in half, not just be mean to them.)
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but you should also take into consideration that long weapons make great hand-to-hand weapons for blocking knives, or delivering blunt trauma, which could possibly stun an opponent.
I think that should depend formost on the available TU
if someone moved all his TU, then how could he still defend as good as someone who is cautiously and slowly moving around (and thus has more TU left)? I think the guy that is cautious would be better at defending against melee
Anyway I totally support melee combat getting a boost. Right now its kinda useless and i think this is sad. Yeah a kerr blade kills my guys happily, but the alien normally ends up next to my guy too and gets shot down, which is less effective for the aliens than a guy with a long range that snipes my guy and goes back into cover again :>
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first off, at close range a sword is far more lethal and faster than a gun, (pistols however are quite fast) but if you put me and you in a small room me with a knife or sword, you with rifle, you would not be getting up (yes i know how to use a sword, knife and various other weapons), a rifle butt slam would not however be an instant kill, especially with these aliens.
that being said....
a knife is faster, a bash with the gun is also fast (pistols exepted (perhaps)), so time units for bashing with a gun should be less than shooting maybe about 7 -12 for a bash attack with rifle (bayonets would be nice), but perhaps damage should be less, and random effect with death vs knockout.
this will make it an option if your really really close, but normally you would just shoot em, cause the range is the safer option.
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off topic....
i aggree that medieval weapons are far more lethal than modern weapons....however that is only at close range, guns were invented for 3 main reasons, 1 they had good range, 2 they had good accuracy (less training), 3 they could punch thru armour at that range.....a sword or a mace could punch thru armour just as effectivley, the armour way mainly used to stop arrows and untrained mellee attacks, a skilled fighter would attack the gaps in the armour, and with a heavy weapon the armour did very little against it.
modern rifles are more lethal than medievil weapons, but only at their appropriate range, once you get into close quarters its how fast you can react, pistols however are designed for close quarter fighting, so they are quite fast weapons also (crap at any range over 5 meters). you can survive a bullet (maybe not a 50cal), but you cant survive a missing head or having your body put into 2 parts.
the rifle was at first designed to replace the crossbow and the long bow, the soldiers for a long time (up until world war 2 in some cases), still carried large melee weapons. after world war 2 these were replaced (slowly), by the pistol.
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Thanks for your feedback, knightsubzero. Some interesting ideas. Leaving aside the debate of which is more deadly, melee weapons or guns, I would like to discuss some points you bring up:
- I will be working on a patch / code change that will allow multiple types of damage per attack. So, these types of "blunt" attacks will carry something like 60/40 (?) split of stun and kill damage. I should probably start another thread about that... ;)
- You mention that you think a bash with a pistol should take longer than a riflebutt -- that's an interesting idea, probably correct. It would make some interesting changes to the way we think of the game: At the moment, these attacks are essentially a proportion of the weapon's Snap Shot firemod. Pistols may be quite different then -- their Snap Shot would take less time than their Bludgeon attack, making the Bludgeon really only useful to subdue, or when out of ammo. Did I understand you correctly?
- Finally, while I did originally add a Bayonet attack, I decided to remove it because I felt it would make the Knife totally obsolete. I mean, why bother if you have the bayonet? It's perhaps not totally realistic, but it is my concession to gameplay balance.
- An idea that I am leaning towards at the moment is minimum ranges for longarms, so only pistols would be allowed to shoot at point-blank range. Thoughts?
Cheers! :)
nemchenk
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not exactly (unless it was a typo)...but kinda....a pistol would be quite fast, whether shooting or bashing, however pistol as a bash would not be too effective, cause its not that heavy, basically bashing with a pistol would be less dangerous than bashing with a rifle but it would be faster cause a pistol is quite a light weapon.
not being able to shoot with a rifle style, or heavy weapon in melee range would be a good idea i think...perhaps with a mouse over kind of warning.....something like "cannot shoot at this range" with the rifle greyed out, but the weapon bash would have a time units cost and would be ok....heavy equipment, like the rocket launcher, would either be a very high time unit cost (cause its slow, but maybe cause more damage), or you not be able to lift it with maybe a too heavy warning.
the bayonet would likely make knives obsolete, so i can see your point there, a bash with the rifle wouldnt, cause people would use the knife due to cheaper time unit cost (people would carry a knife and pistol) and the damage would be greater, people would still use the stun rod cause its a guaranteed (pretty much), of alien capture.
i would suggest being able to use a pistol in mellee range, the pistol is the modern mellee weapon, this would make the pistol a more important weapon.
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i would say something like this....i am not up with my ufopaedia knowledge, so some interpretation may be required also i may have left some out (probably in fact).
mellee weapons.
knife: very low - med damage 4 TU.
pistol whip (pistol, machine pistol, micro shotgun, maybe smg): very low to low damage, very low knockout chance, low-med stun chance. 4-5 tu
alien knife: low to high damage 8 TU
2nd alien knife: med to very high dam 8TU.
rifle bash: low - med damage, low knockout chance, med - high stun chance. 10-12 TU (maybe 8 for shotgun)
stun rod: no to very low damage, high knockout chance, very high stun chance 8-12 tu.
advanced stun rod: same as stun rod, with maybe a 3-5 square range.
the rest of the weapons leave TU as is.
close combat weapons
pistol - low damage, can be fired in mellee, very accurate 0-3 squares, accurate 3-5 squares, inaccurate 5-10 squares, very inaccurate 10+ squares.
machine pistol- as above but take off one square for each accuracy range.
flamethrower- max range, 6 squares, med chance of fear. high - very damage can be fired in mellee.
micro shotgun - melee fireing, same range as pistol or machine pistol, higher damage.
shotgun - cannot be used in mellee (must us bash, but at cheaper cost), range 0-5 very high accuracy, 5-10 high accuracy, 10 -12 med accuracy, 12 - 15 low accuracy, 15+ very low accuracy.
assault weapons.
all assault: no melle range, 0-10 very accurate, 10-15 accurate, 15-20 med accuracy, 20 + low accuracy.
heavy machine gun - same but slightly less accuracy.
grenades
flashbang - high stun chance.
shockwave grenade (researchable) -high stun chance, med knockout chance.
normal grenades should maybe have a slight stun chance as well.
and incendary should have a slight fear chance.
other weapons
grenade launchers and rocket launchers should have about the same accuracy as assault guns, with limited to no bashing ability.
sniper rifle should be able to be bashable and should have the most accuracy out of any weapon.
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- Finally, while I did originally add a Bayonet attack, I decided to remove it because I felt it would make the Knife totally obsolete. I mean, why bother if you have the bayonet? It's perhaps not totally realistic, but it is my concession to gameplay balance.
- An idea that I am leaning towards at the moment is minimum ranges for longarms, so only pistols would be allowed to shoot at point-blank range. Thoughts?
Six of one, half dozen of the other. A bayonet [at least what i had when i was in service] is a knife with a clamp to attach just below the muzzle of the rifle. You can also use it in your palm like a normal knife. So in game terms, we could say that the bayonet attack is not allowed unless the soldier is carrying a knife and a rifle or assault weapon. It would be going too far to require the player to click somewhere to actually install the knife on the rifle... unless ... it could go in the "Extension" space above the weapon? I don't yet know what goes in there.
Of course i'm going to agree about longarms in melee. ;D
grenade launchers and rocket launchers should have about the same accuracy as assault guns, with limited to no bashing ability.
sniper rifle should be able to be bashable and should have the most accuracy out of any weapon.
I would quibble with only a few items. The grenade launcher still has the butt of a rifle and could still bash the same. I agree the rocket launcher is too delicate to be used in melee, it would be destroyed. Actually, the sniper rifle would be in the same category. Any bending to the barrel, or even jarring to the scope, would ruin the accuracy. It would still fire, but would be useless for sniping.
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Woot first post.
Anyway, for whatever it's worth I like the thought of longarm weapons being unable to be fired from point blank. Gives secondary weapons more utility.
Not so keen about flamethrowers being usable at point blank though, I'm no expert but I would think that without protective clothing the flames would splash back on you doing as much damage to you as the alien.
I also like the idea of beating the aliens with the butt of the weapon. I recently brought a bunch of plasma rifles to druglord. The fight went badly due to my noobishness and just about everybody ran out of ammo despite an extra clip for each. (and for some reason my sniper's rifle disappeared from his corpse so nobody could take his job) Only my guy with a modded kerrblade could continue fighting, even when I managed to get into melee range. The aliens appeared to be out of ammo too. Thus turning the battle into an endless stalemate. Nobody could do anything. Hitting with weapons would fix that. I vote same cost for beating somebody with a rifle as a snap shot.
Great game though. I love the moddibility I can't code worth a darn but Ive modded files in everything from Unreal Tournament to Dwarf Fortress.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion between people who actually know what they are talking about. ;)
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well if an alien was in your face you wouldnt be too caring for your weapon, you would just bash him and hope for the best....maybe there would be a chance on bashing that your weapon gets broken? maybe only for more delicate weapons....or just for the game purposes let people bash with sniper rifle.
i could go either way with grenade launcher and rocket launcher....either way they are heavier weapons and would be a bit slower to lift, but would do more damage if they hit you.
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Not so keen about flamethrowers being usable at point blank though, I'm no expert but I would think that without protective clothing the flames would splash back on you doing as much damage to you as the alien.
You seem to hit on something that may have not been considered yet. The firedef for flamer does not currently have a splash as defined in 2.2 or 2.3. Perhaps it should have a small one, maybe only for Inferno Sweep.
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After reading all this, I have an idea:
Can you define melee weapons so that they are strong against low-armor enemies, and weak against heavy armor enemies?
Then, give them a small chance of penetrating (ignoring) the armor.
Fast, good against unarmored foes, and weak (unless you get lucky) against armored foes.
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Another melee weapon that would be helpful for the soldiers would be a upgraded bayonet.
Having a few inches of solid steel on the end of a rifle would make it much more effective than a simple butt stroke. (which given some of these aliens armors would likely just make a dull thud sound and not much else) It would also make it much easier for a soldier to engage in melee combat without having to drop her rifle to draw another weapon.
Make the bayonet work like a modern day switch blade, with the blade concealed in a housing that would deploy upon the press of a button. (this way the blade would be covered and not in the way of normal handling of the weapon. Replacing the spring system with a high tension spring that deploys with a few hundred lbs of force would also give the weapon enhanced penetration against body armor. (you strike the enemy with the front of your rifle then deploy the blade point blank. Granted re sheathing the blade after deployment might be difficult, but being alive to do so is better than the alternative)
On a side note, a person can drive a combat knife through a modern Kevlar vest without too much trouble; this is due to the way the material is layered so as to stop a ballstic weapon. Wether the armors in the game would be constructed along similar lines or not would depend largely on the purpose they were designed for.
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Swords were still used during WWII in some parts. And they were effective, until they came up against the fully automatics, which ruined them.
And guns have only gotten better.
Personally when playing I look at the MP as being like the MetalStorm, which would really mess you up heavily compared to a sword, sure, you can stab a guy, slash teh crap out of him, whatever. But is it really more effective than putting the gun up close to them, and just letting loose with a few rounds at high speed. The velocity of the bullets would only be higher due to shorter distance.
Heavier weapons, stuff like the bolter rifle, I'd be holding waist height, someone comes around the corner, it's pointing at their gut. I'd just fire off a round (RF) and it would go through them, faster than a sword.
Problem imo is that people are comparing a sword in it's scabbard to a holstered gun. These people are in a LZ, they have their guns out, and expecting enemies. From readied, pulling the trigger is faster than swinging a sword or thrusting a knife.
Knives have high killing power, kerblades even more so, I say raise the damage (Ok, maybe not, it's pretty freakin high) but have aliens RF, guy comes running at you with a knife, you'd fire off a few shots his way, if he's alive and able to fight, you're going down.
All the aliens have throats which they use for breathing, armour does not seem to protect that, if headshots cause higher damage, knives should own, once you manage to hit.
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I'd love the potential for skilled hand-to-hand combat, but hand-to-hand is a last resort in such conflicts. Let me address some of the thoughts here:
1. I'd rather not wrestle an Ortnok. It's several times stronger than any human. Anyone with wrestling or Judo experience knows that super-strong wrestling opponents are a problem. Better to knock him out or go for throat/eyes. Or run away!
2. Brass knuckles - who's going to have time to slip them on? A hand-to-hand fight is going to happen on short notice. Anyway, brass knuckles can break your own fingers if you're wearing them at the wrong angle when your punch. It doesn't seem realistic.
3. I wish I could do the animations, but basically, I suck. I'm sorry. I wish I could. I really do wish I could do something to help these fine, fine people.
4. A very simple assortment of moves: punches to face (cross & hook), front/side kick at waist level or lower, a Judo throw or two(maybe Judo's seoi-nage and Aikido's kubi-otoshi). Some newaza (ground-fighting/wrestling) is a fun idea, but too hard to script and also impractical. You don't want to be lying on the ground grappling when your enemy's pals show up - no escape mobility that way. If this is implemented, just keep it simple and elegant. Fancy stuff usually doesn't work and would be hard to do in a full suit of body armor.
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Well, I can't agree with you there. Neither the Roman Legion, nor the Phalanx, were the unstoppable war machines that you describe. Sure, if you stab a sack of straw with a spear or a short sword, you will "kill" it instantly. If you stab a man with a shield and a sword, it all depends on how good you are vs how good he is.
A bullet travels at hypersonic speeds. A stabbing sword or spear is much slower. Ipso Facto: you can do something about an incoming melee attack (dodge, parry), you really can't against a bullet. Unless you are Agent Smith.
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Now, back to the discussion on melee damage and TUs. We have several choices here:
- Make melee attacks fast or slow
- Make melee attack damage high or low
- Make melee attack damage spread tight or loose
At the momnet, I favour fast attacks with either low damage or a large spread. Fast attacks with a low damage means that while you can kill your target with melee, you will give him multiple opportunity for Reaction Fire. Seems like a nice balance of game mechanics to me, preventing this turning into.
Another mechanic which would be nice is giving Primary weapons (longarms and heavy weapons) a minimum range of 1 square, so that it is impossible to shoot at targets right up against you with those weapons.
What do you think? Lets try and stay on-course :)
nemchenk
I think you're both right. The gladius isn't all bad an idea: the aliens do carry and use blades. A two-handed claymore etc is just too heavy and cumbersome - even sheathed, it'd be banging into every doorframe and letting the whole world know where the agent was. A more manageable short sword could be useful in room-clearing, where you could be faced with an alien standing right in front of an agent. A gladius or waki-zashi (short "samurai" sword) could work. I'd like the option.
But evolution has a way of working on its own: modern soldiers, including special forces, don't carry swords because it's not worth the weight, burden. Firearms have largely eliminated the efficacy of large bladed weapons, even though we think it would be cool. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for it, but I understand if the creators don't make it any kind of priority. If more of us knew how to program, who knows - we could have samurai-ninja agents hurling throwing stars and wielding razor-sharp swords for assassination-type kills, doing cool Jiu Jitsu, but even so, we wouldn't want to make this highly realistic and detailed game "kinda lame" for all the medieval interruptions to what is otherwise a very special-forces type combat.
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My $0.02
Bayonets can only apply to rifles, I really do not easily imagine such attachments on machine guns or GL's - so, we are talking about a fair bit of coding work for a modification of what - 3 weapons?
I've had several opportunities to discuss hand-to-hand and martial arts with a member of Israeli special forces (suspect any country's SF would have said the same). his training, while very rigorous and bloody, was aimed at pushing the opponent away, not beating them into submission. Because, he told me, you should always have ammo. (believe there was a very valid point earlier of low ammo not being a problem). Why do the Israeli SF pay that much attention to hand fighting? "so you can push a terrorist away, maybe knock him to the ground. Then take a step back as you draw your pistol and shoot him in the head."
Much the same, I imagine a PHALANX soldier would rather push an alien away and then either shoot or run. Another valid earlier point was engaging hand-to-hand with a huge (forget armored) monster is not anyone's idea of a good day.
So, coding recommendation:
Implement "shove" that (is successful) pushes an alien at least 1 square away. Exact distance and success rate depends on comparison of strengths and sizes. Push can be an automated RF action, i.e. if alien walks up to a soldier, soldier pushes them back. If they do, alien can't cut them. As far as weapons - sure, pushing with something large in your hands is way better than pushing with a pistol or empty hands.
This (if easy) could be short term solution, until detailed h-2-h system is decided upon.
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Daniel that is a genius Idea and i was about to mention the same issue within the next week. Almost every standard infantryman is taught some sort of self defense.
But this brings up another issue for me.
aliens are from a 1G world or a 10G world.... if its 10G world then the aliens should have superior unarmed combat capabilities compared to humans. i.e. you can only push him but he CAN beat you to death in 1 or 2 blows with relative ease.
Its just a few more things that we've been looking at as far as the "reality" of the game. in the old xcom it was assumed that aliens were from mars... About .6 G meaning they would have been significantly weaker in hand to hand combat. UFO AI has not addressed the issue of "where" so we cant really know "how" until the where is established.
any one else thought about the gravitational homeworld differential besides myself?
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Thanks, Darkpriest!
The Ortnok/Mutons are specified following the autopsy to be WAY stronger then humans, regardless of the original world. So, the "1-2 combo of death" does sounds realistic, maybe provided the alien wins reaction/agility check by ALOT. If he wins by some, just a bad stun + some injury (knockout/knockdown). Gives our guys and gals a chance to duck. The armor, I would imagine, would help some. But, the reverse is true - kicking an armored alien, even a wimpy grey, is probably a looser.
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Thanks, Darkpriest!
The Ortnok/Mutons are specified following the autopsy to be WAY stronger then humans, regardless of the original world. So, the "1-2 combo of death" does sounds realistic, maybe provided the alien wins reaction/agility check by ALOT. If he wins by some, just a bad stun + some injury (knockout/knockdown). Gives our guys and gals a chance to duck. The armor, I would imagine, would help some. But, the reverse is true - kicking an armored alien, even a wimpy grey, is probably a looser.
but pushing him away so you can run around the corner where your buddy is waiting to unleash fury on him is not a futile effort!!
also... If the alien is from a high gravity world (3 times earth gravity or more) his reactions and agility are going to be dramatically higher on our 1g world dont you think my friend? he'll win the agility check everytime wouldnt he?
Also whoever made mention of bayonets in this post ... should be given a medal....
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The question of adaptation from high to low G is a very interesting one. I think we need a biologist or best - a NASA person who can tell us about coordination in low gravity right after departure from earth. I imagine now overshooting every motion would take some getting used to.
I would guess that reaction time to stimuly would remain the same, but the large movements would be faster - for this reason runners and some martial artists train/warm up with wrist/ankle weights and take them off right before competition.
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right, exactly, you are spot on again where i am going with this daniel..
I was also wondering if the future of the storyline takes you to another world maybe a gravity chamber would be needed to train soldiers to walk on the foreign world..
However, I think the more logical conclusion is powered armor (needing energy source for that particle cannon from the other thread?) powered armor would solve a lot of the problems AND it would put the humans on an equal reaction footing with the aliens on home turf.
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I think you're both right. The gladius isn't all bad an idea: the aliens do carry and use blades. A two-handed claymore etc is just too heavy and cumbersome - even sheathed, it'd be banging into every doorframe and letting the whole world know where the agent was.
WRONG. A common misconception really. Two-handers weighed from 1.5kg to 3.5kg in general, with the biggest, ceremonial blade weighing 5kg (and it wasn't meant to be used in battle). They were also well balanced and fast weapons..exceedingly deadly. Mastering such a weapon earned a soldier DOUBLE pay.
but it would be a bit impractical indoors, yes :P
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WRONG. A common misconception really. Two-handers weighed from 1.5kg to 3.5kg in general, with the biggest, ceremonial blade weighing 5kg (and it wasn't meant to be used in battle). They were also well balanced and fast weapons..exceedingly deadly. Mastering such a weapon earned a soldier DOUBLE pay.
but it would be a bit impractical indoors, yes :P
I suppose the point is moot, but there's lot of information suggesting such weapons were heavier. Medieval two-handed weapons were intended to pierce plate armor, and needed to be heavy. A standard heavy kevlar vest and full load of webbing and weapon is already quite heavy. Running around with a very large sword would be difficult. Not impossible, but questionable in terms of practicality. I myself have often wondered wheher a nice sharp katana could be added to the troops. Again, though, a hip-slung sword would indeed bang into every doorframe and chair unless the agent were very careful about it, and that's likely a hindrance to special-forces types who must be as stealthy as they can.
That said, if someone codes swords, you can bet my best agents / door-stormers will be carrying them. In the right situation, a sword, axe, or spear would put a melee fighter at tremendous advantage over an opponent armed with a short knife, or nothing. The question would be to choose the right agent(s), and the right application(s). I can see how hammering down on an Ortnok's skill with a large battle-axe in melee fighting would be preferable to trying to stab him with a standard knife. If someone coded throwing stars, I'd try them. If I know anything, anything at all about programming, I'd try it. Sorry!
After all, if someone coded all these weapons and made them realistic, it would be up to the player to decide what works best, and the divergence of styles of each player would become interesting. It's not really fair to ask the creators to do this, but if other people joined who'd do it for them, sweet. You could potentially have players trying to make agents/teams who could subdue the aliens with modernised medievalised fighting. I remember NKF on the XCOM3 forum does this. Over the years of playing, he is at the point where he prefers power-sword kills. As long as the weapon is not made to be silly or grossly over-effective, the potential is fascinating.
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My $0.02
Bayonets can only apply to rifles, I really do not easily imagine such attachments on machine guns or GL's - so, we are talking about a fair bit of coding work for a modification of what - 3 weapons?
I've had several opportunities to discuss hand-to-hand and martial arts with a member of Israeli special forces (suspect any country's SF would have said the same). his training, while very rigorous and bloody, was aimed at pushing the opponent away, not beating them into submission. Because, he told me, you should always have ammo. (believe there was a very valid point earlier of low ammo not being a problem). Why do the Israeli SF pay that much attention to hand fighting? "so you can push a terrorist away, maybe knock him to the ground. Then take a step back as you draw your pistol and shoot him in the head."
Much the same, I imagine a PHALANX soldier would rather push an alien away and then either shoot or run. Another valid earlier point was engaging hand-to-hand with a huge (forget armored) monster is not anyone's idea of a good day.
So, coding recommendation:
Implement "shove" that (is successful) pushes an alien at least 1 square away. Exact distance and success rate depends on comparison of strengths and sizes. Push can be an automated RF action, i.e. if alien walks up to a soldier, soldier pushes them back. If they do, alien can't cut them. As far as weapons - sure, pushing with something large in your hands is way better than pushing with a pistol or empty hands.
This (if easy) could be short term solution, until detailed h-2-h system is decided upon.
This is indeed a very good point, and well-taken. A little anti-climactic, but well-argued and sensible. I think we can say that there's a chance an agent is completely out of ammo and is swarmed by an enemy. So, if some hand-to-hand were incorporated, just a little practical "fighting" would be sensible as well. A couple of strikes and throws. Throws also create space in order to resume knife or firearms-based solutions.
The thing is, this game is so good already, that what we're talking about is not making a good game, or even a great game, or even a fantastic game. We're talking about how to make THE game of all games. The fantasy game. The game that does every little thing we ever dreamed of in our XCOM-starved imaginations. We're talking about merging Rainbow Six with every really decent marines/special forces vs. aliens movie made, and we want to throw in some martial-arts movies and MMA. Just as it is, the game is just awesome. These discussion, if implemented, would be great. Would I ask the developers to do it? Well, I'm reluctant - I don't want to seem ungrateful. Still, these are good ideas and are fun to talk about!
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I suppose the point is moot, but there's lot of information suggesting such weapons were heavier. Medieval two-handed weapons were intended to pierce plate armor, and needed to be heavy. A standard heavy kevlar vest and full load of webbing and weapon is already quite heavy. Running around with a very large sword would be difficult. Not impossible, but questionable in terms of practicality. I myself have often wondered wheher a nice sharp katana could be added to the troops. Again, though, a hip-slung sword would indeed bang into every doorframe and chair unless the agent were very careful about it, and that's likely a hindrance to special-forces types who must be as stealthy as they can.
Sigh...the best source for anything relating to matrial arts of the medieval-renesance era is ARMA. A whole lot of very interesting essays. Read this:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html
you might also want to check out this one:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/TopMyths.htm
Melee weapons are not used today in general, but they could be incredibly deadly under right circumstances. Tight allies, ambushes, jumping an unsuspecting alien - a chop with a battleaxe or a greatsword delivers a huge amount of force - not to mention the shock and trauma.
Even armored opponents could get pulverized.
If modern materials are used, it would be even more effective. However, the mantra for today is - travel light, use the gun. What's the point of having them if you have to resort to such "primitive" weapons anyway, right? Thing is, even primitive weapons can be very effective.