UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Design => Topic started by: Winter on June 29, 2007, 11:46:12 pm
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I'm posting this idea here before I forget it.
I had a thought that UGVs should have special facilities in order to be stored, armed and used effectively. Without a UGV Control Facility at the base, you would not be able to send out UGVs with missions launched from that base. UGVs in storage would not be armed or repaired without a UGV Control Facility.
The facility would support a maximum of about 2-4 UGVs, therefore you wouldn't be able to bring any more than that on a mission.
Opinions?
Regards,
Winter
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I'm posting this idea here before I forget it.
I had a thought that UGVs should have special facilities in order to be stored, armed and used effectively. Without a UGV Control Facility at the base, you would not be able to send out UGVs with missions launched from that base. UGVs in storage would not be armed or repaired without a UGV Control Facility.
The facility would support a maximum of about 2-4 UGVs, therefore you wouldn't be able to bring any more than that on a mission.
Opinions?
Regards,
Winter
Once nice part about late game base defense was having 30-40 of these things sitting around in your bases in storage rooms, ready to chew up and abuse the alien invaders.
I'm not exactly excited by this idea.
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On external missions, you're limited by your dropship size. Since a dropship can carry at best 8 soldiers (alright, more in a later stage of game development. There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers. Some more advanced dropships could arguably hold more if they were designed for UGV transport, but even so each UGV would take up one soldier slot on the HUD, and they're not very versatile in close quarters, which is a good reason not to bring more than a couple.
So in effect, such a limitation would only really be felt in base defence missions.
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On external missions, you're limited by your dropship size. Since a dropship can carry at best 8 soldiers (alright, more in a later stage of game development. There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers. Some more advanced dropships could arguably hold more if they were designed for UGV transport, but even so each UGV would take up one soldier slot on the HUD, and they're not very versatile in close quarters, which is a good reason not to bring more than a couple.
So in effect, such a limitation would only really be felt in base defence missions.
[HACK WHACK SMACK EDIT]
I'm not in agreement with you on the maximum size of the dropship at 12, BT. Not that it matters much, but my opinion below.
In the original UFO, UGV's and equivalent were weakened so it didn't become a tank warfare game (Health = 90, but great armor). They took up 4 spaces, too, so you put yourself at a significant tactical disadvantage in numerical superiority. If I remember correctly, you could get about 26 team members into the final dropship. This allowed you 4 to 5 UGVs if you chose with a decent number of team members. Heck, the original Skyranger got 14. (Handy link: http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/index.html)
If you keep ship sizes down at the 8-12 level, you will have made UGV's a completely worthless research endeavour unless they are godsends of firepower and armor on the battlefield, in which case, why care about the men? The only reason to research them would be for the points, as losing 33% or more of your team for *1* of these things seems overkill.
One of my biggest complaints about the old game was that you couldn't hook UGV's to the wings instead of missiles or whatnot, and drop them when you landed. This might be a good way to counteract the smaller dropships, and give UGV's an additional 'bonus', without having to turn them into rolling slaughter machines.
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Now, if you really wanted to mess with people, Winter, as to controlling these things, hand out single handed control units. This would give you your limitations without really hurting the idea. Each human with a controller could control *1* non-AI UGV. Two guys and an arsenal of UGVs at a base could eventually eliminate the entire alien squad. Maybe.
It'd really bite on missions, though. Instead of losing four spots for the UGV, now you're losing 5 (the guy stuck controlling it until it dies). Joy. Maybe that isn't such a great idea, after all... :)
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In the original UFO, UGV's and equivalent were weakened so it didn't become a tank warfare game (Health = 90, but great armor). They took up 4 spaces, too, so you put yourself at a significant tactical disadvantage in numerical superiority. If I remember correctly, you could get about 26 team members into the final dropship. This allowed you 4 to 5 UGVs if you chose with a decent number of team members. Heck, the original Skyranger got 14. (Handy link: http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/index.html)
This is true, but keep in mind that the UFO:EU maps were considerably bigger than the UFO:AI ones. Bringing 26 soldiers to most of the maps we have now would practically mean they'd have to breathe in turn. I feel 8-12 soldiers is just right. More, and it stops being squad-based combat and starts being army-based combat.
If you keep ship sizes down at the 8-12 level, you will have made UGV's a completely worthless research endeavour unless they are godsends of firepower and armor on the battlefield, in which case, why care about the men? The only reason to research them would be for the points, as losing 33% or more of your team for *1* of these things seems overkill.
I consider UGVs to be very effective in combat, dishing out serious damage while taking a lot of punishment. If they weren't, I'd never take them. I still care about men because UGVs are bulky and unable to fight in close quarters, which is where you'll ultimately find the most enemies.
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Just a thought here, not necessarily one that has to be implemented:
What if UGVs were carried in a seperate part of a dropship instead of taking up a solider slot (such as a UGV cargo pod in the ship equip screen, along with fuel pods, weapons, etc.)?
Opinions? Just an idea...
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This is true, but keep in mind that the UFO:EU maps were considerably bigger than the UFO:AI ones. Bringing 26 soldiers to most of the maps we have now would practically mean they'd have to breathe in turn. I feel 8-12 soldiers is just right. More, and it stops being squad-based combat and starts being army-based combat.
Hm, perhaps, but I liked the whole concept of the army not sending in a handful of people when they had the VTOL assets to deliver a lot larger of a squad. Besides, you needed the extra space on the later and harder levels to put in some UGVs so they could absorb fire while your men ran into positions. Once you start looking at one shot kills regularly and getting psionic'd before you even left the Dropship, you needed *something*.
I'd also like to *see* larger maps. I'd hoped we were trying to get past how tiny the current ones are.
That's why I was thinking perhaps storylining using the hardpoints on the dropship to allow for exterior carrying of the UGV's, so you can have your 12 men. I guess part of it is I *miss* having 26 newbies, tossing them into the blenders, coming back with 6 and adding them to the 'real' squad.
Also, with more men, you rarely had this problem of alien's sneaking around behind you. More and more I find having 2, maybe 3 fireteams moving and covering each other doesn't allow for a 'full sweep'. Take the bunker as a prime example. It's rediculously easy for men to sweep behind you. I'd prefer 'army' on 'army' once I have the ability to get them there.
I consider UGVs to be very effective in combat, dishing out serious damage while taking a lot of punishment. If they weren't, I'd never take them. I still care about men because UGVs are bulky and unable to fight in close quarters, which is where you'll ultimately find the most enemies.
You don't have enough men to fight in close quarters in Hard/VH if you take a UGV to the wrong map (subway, mineshaft, towers, etc... especially anything with stairs). Hope you saved before you landed so you can go get a different loadout.
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I'd also like to *see* larger maps. I'd hoped we were trying to get past how tiny the current ones are.
Absolutely. Some of them are alright, but especially the random maps are cramped at best with the current configuration.
That's why I was thinking perhaps storylining using the hardpoints on the dropship to allow for exterior carrying of the UGV's, so you can have your 12 men. I guess part of it is I *miss* having 26 newbies, tossing them into the blenders, coming back with 6 and adding them to the 'real' squad.
I usually kept my team to a modest number of men and did everything to keep them alive. Though I must admit that a large part of the reason for this is that having to equip all your soldier before every single mission played a part in that. As you might expect, this game will be better in that area.
You don't have enough men to fight in close quarters in Hard/VH if you take a UGV to the wrong map (subway, mineshaft, towers, etc... especially anything with stairs). Hope you saved before you landed so you can go get a different loadout.
Well, if an UGV only takes a soldier slot on the HUD and assuming 12 soldiers for the sake of the argument, you'd still have 10 men to spare if you took 2 UGVs. With the UGVs patrolling the surface, you should be able to handle the rest with the soldiers.
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Well, if an UGV only takes a soldier slot on the HUD and assuming 12 soldiers for the sake of the argument, you'd still have 10 men to spare if you took 2 UGVs. With the UGVs patrolling the surface, you should be able to handle the rest with the soldiers.
*applies brakes*... a 2x2 UGV = 4 soldiers, not 1, in 'dropship space'. Did I miss a design choice along the way?
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I was assuming you don't have to sacrifice 4 soldier spaces in your dropship for every UGV you take along, as has been suggested in this thread and in others. There's a lot to be said for it, as the UGVs could be transported in a special equipment bay or in pods on the outside of the ship, etc, etc.
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I was assuming you don't have to sacrifice 4 soldier spaces in your dropship for every UGV you take along, as has been suggested in this thread and in others. There's a lot to be said for it, as the UGVs could be transported in a special equipment bay or in pods on the outside of the ship, etc, etc.
Ah, I see, so that's a definate difference in design from the original series. I hadn't seen nor heard any official mention of it, but perhaps it was hashed and rehashed long before I arrived, so please, pardon my ignorance.
I'm still going to miss deploying my Company Sized armored infantry unit to kill the hive queen. It wasn't until very recently that I figured out why it felt like each loss hit my team so much harder then I remember the original doing so. Then again, our teams start in the wide open, instead of the old way of deploying out of the ship and being able to slowly spread and cover each other.
I'm still on the fence about which I preferred. The first turn or two was either very boring as you deployed, or very hectic as you hid behind your own wheels. Now you're scattering for cover straight out of the gates hoping nothing runs out from a door because your ship's practically pointless in that regard.
EDIT::
From earlier in the conversation:
... There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers.
...
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I like the idea of facility designed for rearming and repairing UGVs, though IMO it should also be available in Workshop, maybe at slower rate.
Mind that every new type of facility -> bigger base map and everyone knows that base defence mission with large base is PITA, especially on slower GPUs.
The soldiers limits would be defined per dropship type, of course. Basicaly the code is ready for that except needed changes in HUDs (to handle more than 8 soldiers).
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Speaking of which, where's RaXaR with his GUI?
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I like the idea of facility designed for rearming and repairing UGVs, though IMO it should also be available in Workshop, maybe at slower rate.
Mind that every new type of facility -> bigger base map and everyone knows that base defence mission with large base is PITA, especially on slower GPUs.
The soldiers limits would be defined per dropship type, of course. Basicaly the code is ready for that except needed changes in HUDs (to handle more than 8 soldiers).
The main aim of this building was to keep UGVs from being used en masse with no penalties or explanations, since UGVs would realistically need some specialised equipment and trained operators to be effective. Upping the limit to 6 UGVs per mission wouldn't bother me, as long as the building was in the game.
Regards,
Winter
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Thread necromancy perhaps, but I don't feel creating a new thread to be necessary.
My opinion is this, simply. No UGV control centre.
As for the why, it's essentially another facility to clutter, expand and occupy the base with a function that is redundant. It is redundant in terms of balance because the tradeoff of four men is substantial. It is redundant in terms of realism, because workshops can be responsible for the repair of UGV at a rate dicated by the # of workers you have that are unoccupied (work allocation/micromanagement should exist for them as it does with scientists). If you've got storage facilities, that's where the UGVs go when not in use. If you've got a Command Centre (I should hope so), that's where the UGV direction takes place (that said, if you don't have a Command Centre, no UGVs for you, although you're screwed regardless).
Even with the existing deployment limitations concerning the maximum number of soldiers, UGVs can easily prove useful without being overpowered simply through proper tweaking. There is a golden mean between over and underpowered, and it can be found. Balance is not inaccessible here.
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If we have different UGV designs control center would be probably good. Maybe UGV's could have also exchangeable/upgradeable parts - we could uparmor it or change gun system or "radar" to show around in longer range. Then UGV's can only be modified in base, not in field just before battle like soldiers can be equiped in next versions.
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I think the idea of UGVs being moddable only in base with modular parts is already a feature of their planned initial implimentation.
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Okay, sorry that I have missed it - just someone mentioned tens of old obsolite UGV's staying at base just, if I'm not mistaking.
At least is needed UGV management screen, it would be bad to stuck it together with producing which may have very high priority jobs at moment too.
Warzone 2100 is good example how tank bodies, tracks (or wheels or hover skirts) and turrets are put together, make it all changeable and add additional slots for electronics and add-on armor and system would be nicest it can!
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On the initial discussion, something else to note was that you could only carry 80 items into a mission, and HWPs only accounted for 1 item, versus the equipment loadout of the 4 men it replaced. That was one reason I always took a maximum allotment of them.
I also agree that UGV maintenance and control is sufficiently accomplished by Workshops and Command Centers. There's barely enough room in bases as it is. (Can I mention that invulnerable/unbuildable rock tiles really irk me? ;) ) Data networks and wireless bandwidth will be high enough in 80 years that the UGVs could be reliably controlled halfway across the world, with advanced enough AI and image recognition software that human operators need only be supervisors.
I agree that with the current maps, 12 soldiers is probably the upper limit.
Another idea for transport limits would factor weight in, and/or allow a trade off between UGV mounts/bays and extra fuel capacity. Later transports could have the advantage of allowing a squad full of powered armour troops plus UGVs greater range, which in earlier transports one would need to sacrifice external fuel tanks in order to simply lift off the ground.
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I certainly think we should limit UGV deployment somehow. Another idea would be to limit UGV capacity for each aircraft to maybe 1 or 2 (or even 0), with additional "UGV Pods" that can be fitted on weapon hardpoints. Small UGVs on small hardpoints, small or medium UGVs on medium hardpoints, etc. etc.
Regards,
Winter
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Seriously, what's the point of artifical limitations on UGVs? These things are giant firepower magnets. They are not as maneuverable as soldiers, make far larger targets and if abiding by the UFO system (which is very sensible), require the exclusion of up to 4 of them. In multiplayer, a UGV heavy team is going to get flanked so hard that it will evoke memories of Hannibal.
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We can't just equate one UGV to four soldiers, though. As it is we have a maximum of 8 soldiers per mission, so one UGV would halve the squad's numbers. While I realize that we will have larger squads in future versions, I should not think the squad size will go above 12 or so. And even then trading an UGV for soldiers isn't going to be cost effective.
Bottom line, UGVs are carried in addition to soldiers, not in stead. And that means you have to limit the amount you can carry per dropship manually. The pods Winter mentioned sound like a good idea to me.
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Depends on how powerful the UGV is. It's a balancing act, and hardly an impossible one at that. UGVs in addition to 12 soldiers is ludicrous. However, if you must go that route, and are keen on rebalancing encounters, because they will be far too easy with UGVs added as is, then yes, the UGV pods are a good idea.
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I certainly think we should limit UGV deployment somehow. Another idea would be to limit UGV capacity for each aircraft to maybe 1 or 2 (or even 0), with additional "UGV Pods" that can be fitted on weapon hardpoints. Small UGVs on small hardpoints, small or medium UGVs on medium hardpoints, etc. etc.
Regards,
Winter
I like the idea of UGVs being mounted in hard points, or latched onto the hull for transit then covered over for aerodynamics. The VTOL goes into a hover, whatever covers the UGV is release, the UGV is dropped before the VTOL lands to deploy troops. Basically turning UGV into a shock troop to secure a landing zone. (,and not having another building to cram into a base.)
If you want to use remote controlled UGV, just pick a reason at random, and stick with it. It's fiction, make a fictional technical hurdle why the aliens will not let you use 1,000 UGV in a single mission. In real life the military has a whole bag of tricks keep stuff like that from happening, but it's fiction and the aliens are well ahead of us. No joke,After four years of electronic theory , and almost completing with my Crisco Certified Network Professional classes(WIP), (which says less about Cisco, and more about the extra-curricular research you have to do to sift though that class.) Pick a angle, and I'm reasonably sure that I could come up with a reason to both defend and defeat it.
However, I suggest something else:
AI controlled, like blood spiders?, you could turn around and say there is a sophisticated enough AI to get the job done, but still has a steep learning curve and requires input from the squad. So much so that if you had more then two or three a mission that the humans ,even with a full squad, would be nothing more then glorified tech support. Basically, you have to have <x> squad members per UGV. With remote access for the AI's support not working for whatever reason. That or you could say that each UGV requires <x> live units have a glorified RC remote in their backpack for the UGV to be under your control, and work properly.
It would also allow you the freedom to research upgrades, or a creative license add or remove from it's abilities. "A human could do that! Yes, but it's not directly human controlled."
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...Small UGVs on small hardpoints, small or medium UGVs on medium hardpoints, etc. etc...
"Small", "medium", and "large" UGVs are all size variations in a 2x2 square unit?
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"Small", "medium", and "large" UGVs are all size variations in a 2x2 square unit?
As far as I'm aware we will be having 1x1 UGVs as well. I don't know about 1x2, maybe it's possible. Regardless, I don't think a variation between medium and large in 2x2 squares is hard to achieve.
Regards,
Winter
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IMHO are 'UVG Pods' for the dropship the best way to balance their usefulness.
Keep the system simple:
These Pods are mounted instead of other aircraft equipment - like external fuel pods - in the equipment bays.
This would limit you to exactly 2 UVG Pods per dropship (this probably counts for all other advanced dropships) - by the loose of 50% (?) range.
Now say, each UVG Pod has the electronic ability to control '4 points of UVGs' - and a small one needs 1 point, a medium 2 points and a large one needs 4 points.
Further researches could increase the electronic capacity to 6 or 8 points, if you like. Or you could start with only 2 points...
BTW: I'd like one or two special maps in which you could land with 2 dropships simultaneous. Maybe as a multiplayer feature.
cu
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Please not another building for them> I am anticipating a Psionic build and other defensive stations other than missiles so there is no room as it is. I agree workers in workshop capable of such needs.
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My first reaction is... "what another thing i need to cram in my base?".
But what i consider base overcrowding could be relived by such things as increasing the capacity of labs and quarters.
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I see there is a lot of discussion about available size.
Well about soldiers, I hope that one day we might be able to have 12 soldiers instead of 8, in huge ships. Right now we have only 8.
About bases, hopefully for a lot of cash we might dig through rock, to get another level to use for our base ;)
Until then I think bases can act to "specialize" in various aspects. Like one base that focusses on aerial stuff, another one that
focusses on research etc...
My biggest personal pet peeve is actually the laboratory.
Since research for me is kinda the most important aspect, I'd be happy on anything that helps me with the research stuff... bounty-research with money to research faster, or increasing the amount of scientists able to do research etc.. etc..
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Here's a thought: with the talk of a 12-unit (Soldier or UVG) in the battlefield, the idea of UVG pods mounted as subsystems on dropships (which I love), and later-game dropships allowing for up to 12 troopers, a thought comes to mind. Since the Pod-mounted UVGs will still take up a unit slot in the player's roster, the player should still need to delegate a trooper to control the UVG via remote (akin to modern day, the TALON (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster-Miller_TALON) comes to mind). As such, for each UVG mounted on the dropship, the player would need to delegatte one trooper to stay in the dropship (i.e. not appear on the battlefield) to control the UVG. Should the UVG be destroyed, the controller may emerge from the ship to replace the UVG's slot on the roster, with whatever equipment assigned before the mission (essentially allowing the player to take 14 units to battle, but with a plausible reason why only 12 are ever in play at once). Just a thought.
With regards to UVG sizes and armaments; I've played a number of games over the years which involved customizable combat units, and I do like the idea of multiple UVG chassis with corresponding weights, armor levels, and weapon loads (hardpoint sizes). I would assume the Medium and Large UVGs (if both 2x2) would have similar/same TU pools, but the Large would be heavier (i.e. higher TU cost per movement). The Large would also have heavier armor (hence the weight) and a larger hardpoint able to accommodate larger (heavier) weapons. I do hope, if it is possible, that the player's soldiers will be able to fire over/across some sections of the UVG, using it as cover when cover is sparse.
And I don't like the idea of a dedicated UVG facility. They are machines; they are born in the Workshop, they live in Storage, when injred they go back to the Workshop, and if anything the Command Center can take care of any controlling needs.