UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: ChemBro on May 19, 2012, 10:46:43 am
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Okay, I want to discuss the cost of some of the aircrafts, because I think, they are a little bit too expensive, but maybe, this is intended.
I think the requirement "alien materials" for some ships is a little bit too high and the only "bottleneck" I have, when building those aircrafts. The alien ship I get the most alien material out of it is in my opinion a 100% harvester. One 100% harvester = 800 alien materials. Good. So let's look at the cost for the aircrafts and how many harvester I need for it (AM = Alien Materials, H = Harvester):
- Dragon Interceptor: 5000 AM (6.25 H)
- Starchaser-class Interceptor: 7000 AM (8.75 H)
- Stingray Interceptor: 9000 AM (11.25 H)
- Raptor-class Combat Transport 12000 AM (15 H)
Well, the other requirements like money, time to build and these alien ship things are laughable compared to the rest, because I will have 10x of these requirements, before I meet the alien material requirement. I'm playing on easier and it took me about 1 1/2 ingame months to get those 15 harvesters for my Raptor and only for one. My problem was not to disassemble them (I have at least 3 bases for that), my problem is, that I need 15 harvesters and I don't get that many missions with harvesters, so I need to wait until those missions pop up. So I was able to get the best interceptor and the best drop ship, but only for one base. And I dunno, but the cost for the Dragon and Starchaser is so high compared to the Stingray, I don't even consider them to be build.
I think, the alien material cost is too high and I would do it more like 2000, 4000, 7000, 8000 for example. It still takes time to get the alien material, but not that much and if you're impatient, you could at least build a smaller interceptor.
Again, this is only my opinion, maybe the high cost is intended, but it doesn't feel right when playing the campaign.
So... discuss!
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You are right imo. This needs more balancing.
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Perhaps making it being manufacturable might be useful, either slowly or perhaps preferably at great expense so the player can do it if they want but UFO capture would be the most efficient way to acquire it.
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With the exception of the Raptor, every single one of those craft fits in the small hangar, if I remember correctly.
Makes the prices laughable as they are. Think one should be making multiples out of a harvester.
Of course, that spawns a whole host of other issues.
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Perhaps making it being manufacturable might be useful, either slowly or perhaps preferably at great expense so the player can do it if they want but UFO capture would be the most efficient way to acquire it.
Alien material is producible AFAIR.
-geever
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Alien material is producible AFAIR.
-geever
At least this is not possible in 2.4. Don't know about 2.5, but definitely not in 2.4.
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the research article says you cant
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I modified the costs to 2000, 3000, 4500, and 6000 respectively; I never actually build Dragons or Starchasers, so I can't comment on the appropriateness of those prices, but with the reduced numbers of alien craft spawning and the other demands on Alien Materials these values have seemed reasonable to me.
~J
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Agreed. The build cost is deffo too damn high, or alternatively, we don't get nearly enough alien materials from UFOs. Cost is simply unfair. Personally, I would cut the Alien Materials requirements by 20-30% for each craft, while also increasing the Alien Material yield from UFOs by 100%, but I'd also increase the time it takes to disassemble them.
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No.
The costs are downright redicolous.
How the HELL is it possible for one small interceptor to require more materials than what can be gained from several large harvesters. You should be able to build at least 1 interceptor per harvester.
And alien attacks should be a bit less frequent.
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You have to realize that engineers are working with materials that are hard to process and they have little knowledge about them, and little experience processing them. You can't expect 100% efficiency working them, more like 10%.
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when a comparatively small interceptor takes up the resources of 6.25 harvesters things are a little skewed, given the size difference 1 perhaps 2 harvesters taking into account inefficiency of materials handling but 6?
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It's an alien material. We can choose whatever % recovery efficiency we want. The numbers (disassembly time and alien materials) need to be balanced according to the number of UFOs a player is able to collect and dismantle in a given period of time.
Saying something like 1 harvester = 1 small interceptor, for instance, could make it far too easy to build advanced craft, since the player is likely to face dozens and dozens of them over the course of a game. If the player is able to accumulate a vast stock of extra alien materials, it will render the UFO Yards useless late in the game.
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Then have less UFO's appear. Have UFO's yield less.
It makes little sense to stock your base full of alien materials and that barely being enough for 1 fighter. It's just a massive waste of space.
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You can even say in the background text somewhere that the material is difficult to recover efficiently and the engineers are having to discard a large proportion of the material because it is just unusable
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Don`t forget that there will be more large ufos (like corrupter and bomber), which should have much materials.
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At one point the aliens will show up with the Gunboat UFO. At this time the player should be able to build at least some of the advanced interceptors. The real task will be to avoid the player simply getting over the Dragon and Starchaser interceptors. In the original X-Com there was never a reason for me to build any other advanced aircraft than the Avenger. I would like to have the player either be able to build a lot of Dragon (cheap to build, low AM consumption, low range - completely replaces the Stiletto) or on the other hand build only a few Stingray (needs a lot of alien materials, high fuel/AM consumption - should be more an addition than a replacement of the existing arsenal).
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Don`t forget that there will be more large ufos (like corrupter and bomber), which should have much materials.
I am about to find out, if I will see them, before I "must" end the game (or the game ends me... with the virus).
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I would like to have the player either be able to build a lot of Dragon (cheap to build, low AM consumption, low range - completely replaces the Stiletto) or on the other hand build only a few Stingray (needs a lot of alien materials, high fuel/AM consumption - should be more an addition than a replacement of the existing arsenal).
I totally agree with this.
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I am about to find out, if I will see them, before I "must" end the game (or the game ends me... with the virus).
Not yet, sorry. The campaign ends after the Alien Base mission in 2.4 for some reason. There is simply not more to show atm. Only thing if you keep playing is - the fights will start getting really tough.
Kildor recently started to implement the UFO Gunboat in 2.5-dev.
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Not yet, sorry. The campaign ends after the Alien Base mission in 2.4 for some reason. There is simply not more to show atm. Only thing if you keep playing is - the fights will start getting really tough.
Well, I'm not entering the alien base, so the game goes on and I got new things to research. I'm still missing the cannon thing and also: "Not yet" might not be the right term, because I had corruptor missions in 2.3.
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I think I have mentioned this somewhere already, but what about this solution:
Dragon: small light interceptor with A/M engine, capable of catching all UFOs without problem, but with low weapon capacity.
Starchaser: heavy interceptor with ion engines (research based on alien engines. Ion engines use similar technology of magnetic containment and channeling, but without antimatter), in full load, it will be only slightly faster than Saracen's top speed, but capable of carrying heavy payload, acting essentially as gunboat. However, while not requiring AM fuel, its running cost would be very high.
Stingray: medium A/M interceptor, with decent payload and top speed slightly under Dragon's, but with longer range, capable of orbital flight, but with huge consumption of antimatter.
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I think I have mentioned this somewhere already, but what about this solution:
Dragon: small light interceptor with A/M engine, capable of catching all UFOs without problem, but with low weapon capacity.
But then what does it do once it catches them? All of the ships fast enough to need significant catching are tough and heavily armed, and at least at the moment it's extremely fiddly and obnoxious to coordinate multiple-aircraft interceptions.
Stingray: medium A/M interceptor, with decent payload and top speed slightly under Dragon's, but with longer range, capable of orbital flight, but with huge consumption of antimatter.
That seems risky—making it expensive to field in a scarce resource (even scarcer than Alien Materials) is a good way to make it useless. I guess it really hinges on what you mean by "huge".
~J
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Essentially this: Dragon would be good for damaging and slowing down biggest UFOs (if the game will later include damaged UFOs slowing down), enabling other interceptors to catch up. Stingray would probably be needed for some missions because of its space flight capabilities, and it will be able to engage largest crafts on more equal terms than Dragon, but of course not one on one with the biggest. About consumption...give or take between 50-150 units per "usual" engagement would be good I think, harvesters yield 450 units.
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Actually, now that I think about it that sort of light skirmishing craft could be made more practical by an apparently-not-too-bad change to dogfight AI—right now, the aircraft (if it can) goes and sits on top of the UFO, which means that if it runs out of ammo it needs to make its way all the way back out of the threat envelope without getting shot down. An alternative AI that instead tried to maintain the maximum range of its shortest-ranged weapon system could make something like that work.
Of course, I don't see it really adding enough to be worth mounting a campaign for at the moment, what with so many other areas with bigger impact on play experience per unit apparent effort.
~J
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Random thought:
What if there was a researchable tech that would either:
- Increase the Alien Materials yield from UFOs, or
- A craft weapon (heavy) that "disables" half-shot UFOs, so that they're in better condition after they've been shot down. This weapon would be useless against unharmed UFOs. This could be a very expensive missile, if not an ammoless beam weapon.
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Don`t forget that there will be more large ufos (like corrupter and bomber), which should have much materials.
So, corrupters appeared and I researched them. Result: corrupter = 800 alien materials, same as harvester. So no difference.
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Starchaser:...Ion engines...
This! And give it two! Pweeeeease?
Aside from being bloody hilarious, we already have and use ion engines since they're rather efficient in the real world.
Downside is that their thrust is pretty much laughable so they're only really useful in space at the moment but if you tacked on some of the (hundreds of) thousands of years of the technological advantage our foes have...not so instant antimatter substitute for some operations!
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I've finally gotten around to looking at the disassembly stats for alien materials/antimatter. I just pushed a commit (https://github.com/ufoai/ufoai/commit/b11ae511d9d2ac8886f96c89c8f0ca18b1b83d1c) that should bring the numbers back into ranges that make it more viable to field advanced interceptors throughout the game. I may have gone too far, but we'll see in time.
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Those values look a LOT better overall. I've been wondering why I need to take apart so many Harvesters when it seems like one and some scrap should provide enough materials logically. Also good on lowering the equipment requirements since I think grenades take a lot less resources then planes. I let you know if I see any odd things in the new values.