UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Tactics => Topic started by: fuuuu on September 29, 2008, 05:24:59 pm
-
Hey all
I've been neglecting heavy weapons with the exception of flame throwers because I cannot find a tactical use for them. The only time that I do use one, is when I cannot find better replacement soldiers with the appropriate skill.
*It doesn't have the firepower, a Close weapon will beat it within range of 10, and a single shot weapon will beat it beyond that. In the case of corner camping with RF flame thrower does the job well. For offensive fire support, single shot weapon or GL provide superior performance.
*It can't suppress the aliens nor have I found it being able to Spray/Weaken the enemy as a whole to a significant extent.
*To top it all off, its TU inefficient. Defensively, RF can only fire 2 burst, or 1 Auto, 1 Auto is insufficient at warding off more than 1 alien, 2 burst is insufficient at even killing one alien. Offensively, the fire requires too many TUs for it to skirmish well or assault indoor nests. I am not expecting the single soldier to fend off multiple aliens, but even with support of a buddy, the heavy weapon user will usually end up being the fodder.
*It does go through more armor, but the Table illustrates that its only 1-3 dmg per shot compared to assault or close. It seems more worthwhile to have specialised weapons which go through more armor.
I have read up in the forums that certain people like heavy lasers, I haven't been able to work out why that is so. It just seems to me that, heavy lasers have weaker TU efficiency, longer time to reload along with a small magazine. The only upside i can see is the range, but I would think Rockets are better at that point anyway. I am fairly new to this game, and I would like to introduce heavy weapons into my squad so I am wondering if I am missing something.
My tactics involve around taking strategical points on the map, securing the flanks and use the reserve to reinforce an arm to exploit holes in enemy defence. During indoor combat, I will establish perimeter security then send in sweeper teams of 3+ to clear it room by room. The tactic is smooth, but sluggish. Any advice on how to deploy heavy weapons or increase mobility will be appreciated.
-
I'm ignoring heavy weapons now totally as well as flamethrowers and gl's. Smg's and snipers do the job. Smg's in cqb and snipers in larger ranges.
-
I would say this is a topic that should be discussed after bigger UFOs and Alienbases are more frequent where close combat is more common (for e.g. the flamethrower).
In addition 2x2 aliens or heavy armored aliens havent been implemented yet, where weapons with a really high damage output are more useful.
So, it would be better to wait until the next stable release before balancing everything.
-
This is an excellent question. I too am struggling with the use of the machine gun. I deploy one in every mission, but find the weapon's wielder has a harder time scoring kills than his comrades armed with submachine guns. The sniper, of course, is the queen of the battlefield, and is so very wonderful at the long-range firefight. The grenade launcher, despite its short range, is a fantastic clearing weapon.
My understanding is that a machine gun will be slightly less accurate than an assault rifle, and rather less accurate than an M-16-style weapon. However, it has the ability to sustain more automatic fire, and can therefore bring a lot of rounds down on target, especially groups of enemies. In the past, I've deployed the machine gunner to hold choke-points along the main axis of attack, but I've found that he has more trouble holding such a position than an agent armed with a submachine gun.
Perhaps the range and accuracy of the machine gun needs to be tweaked to be a little bit better, and the full-auto fire setting should be increased to some 30 rounds, to really get the full effect of a machine gun to happen. A machine gun must be able to significantly outperform smaller weapons in automatic fire, although it's true that even a proper machine gun is best fired in short bursts, so as not to overheat the barrel. However, doing so might keep the machine gun relevant.
While I'm on the topic, I think something needs to be checked on the assault rifle as well. I find that assault-rifle wielders rarely tend to get off more than a single shot at a time in reaction fire, even when set to 3-round burst or full auto. As a result, assault rifle agents are weak and unreliable in reaction fire compared to all their comrades, which is a shame, because I like to have a balanced and diverse squad. Really, an assault rifle should be the standard weapon for the larger maps, while the submachine gun should be intended more for FIBUA (inside buildings). I'd like to deploy the following squad:
1 sniper (a wonderful weapon, especially when your sniper gets good)
1 grenade launcher agent with a sidearm (These days I never leave the base without one. Why storm, when you can blast them out?)
1 machine gunner (needs higher rate of fire to hold choke points like a machine gun could)
2 assault rifles (needs more reliable multi-shot reaction fire)
2 submachine guns
1 medic armed with a submachine gun (pretty standard military practice)
I'd like to use the shotgun and flamethrower more, but they're too special and limited, I find, for the various battles. Maybe that's why a lot of special forces and SWAT police don't carry them. Still, I'd love to use them; there's just not enough room, not enough agents. But then again, everyone has his/her own style, which is why this game is so, so great. I see various schools of thought emerging, various kinds of practice emerging, different teams doing things different ways, but getting the job done. Love the game, people. :)
-
It seems to be a balancing issue, although abit sad that MGs are neglected when most of Fire team tactics will revolve around MGs. MGs realistically are the Fireteam's real firepower and needs to be used wisely and decisively. As a matter of fact, the German WWII Fireteam had the MG gunner right next to the Leader to ensure that it is well directed and controlled. Whilst many modern fireteams are encouraged to withhold the use of MGs because its a trump card to be played at the right time.
to aiki;
I agree with much of what you have to say, although with the reaction fire bug what I do is exit the game and go back into it, and it works again. It probably will get fixed in 2.3
SAS used to use shotgun sabots to quickly open doors as an alternative to opening it with a breaching charge. Shotguns also come in automatic models, with about 300(i think) RPM. Quite effective at taking out multiple targets.
In terms of flamethrowers, realistically its actually got more effective range than submachine guns. Its especially useful for clearing buildings because you do not have to "hit" your enemy to burn him, and like explosions, should the room be closed, the fire spread into the room filling up every space. In essence, flamethrowers can by pass winding tunnels to hit whats behind it. In addition to that, FT burns up oxygen in the air(small spaces) and can disable tanks by overheating certain areas, say engine, external fuel and optics. The reason why militaries no longer uses it as much is because it A) attracts alot of enemy fire B) Its dangerous to allies if flamethrower is hit C) flame throwers are such a high danger that it is usually suppressed once identified. D) probably most important is human rights.
Swat teams probably don't use them because it can A) hurt the hostage, B) can set off bombs, it wont set off the good ones with a cook off timer, but the bombs may be home made. C) light up the sprinklers in the building D) It doesn't bring the "terrorist" down immediately E) controversy with Human Rights.
-
Lots of great points there, Fuuuuu. It doesn't seem like the game can employ the aspects of flamethrowers that you mention, but you make a great case for it. And I know I'd make taking out a flamethrowing enemy a major priority, just as I make a priority of taking out aliens who, strangely, carry rocket launchers.
-
I have yet to play a game with an accurate representation of the Flamethrower in in combat; usually it is a sort of short-range rapid-fire weapon with a flame-ish animation. I will, however, lay out a flamethrower concept for Starsiege: Tribes which I think found it close to the mark. Tribes is a heavily mod-able game, and flourished with massive server-side game modifications created almost entirely through the game's scripting language, so this concept is considerably hack-ey.
The flamethrower fires a single projectile at a low rate of fire. The projectile has a limited range and arcs with gravity. When the projectile strikes, it creates are of effect damage and flame particle, while throwing out six unseen projectiles in a ring. These arc downward quickly and detonate upon impact or after a short fuse. These projectiles release more damage and fire particle, and toss three more unseen projectiles in a fan pattern, which explode with similar effects. The overall apparent effect is that the fire trails along the object it hits, spreading out in the open or producing more concentrated damage in enclosed spaces. It also allows the damage effect to navigate around corners and doorways to a limited extent.
I post this because the logic behind the implementation may be useful to you if you chose to overhaul the function of the Flamethrower.
-
Sounds like something for the grenade launcher
-
I am personally ok with the way flamethrower works in this game. The said soldier using FT can also be cannon fodder, they don't need strength, mind, accuracy and weapon skills. As long as this soldier has Health and Agility, its good enough for them to go to the front line, and they're expendable.
Realistically, weapons that can bypass covers are Mortars, GLs, Gas/Chemicals, armor piercing weapons and nuclear bombs. Many varieties of indirect and direct weapons would work and i don't see the need for FT to be one of them. At the moment, its one of the most damaging weapons in the game, effective against all aliens and you can get it immediately.
Anyway, I did start the thread to discuss mostly machine guns or heavy weapons. If anyones got some tips and experience, do share it with us.
-
I've proposed an extensive set of alterations to gear properties, including heavy weapons, and most of them have been cleared for implementation by Axis, so they will soon gain a tactical role, especially when it comes to overwatch, suppression and cover-fire.
-
I am personally ok with the way flamethrower works in this game. The said soldier using FT can also be cannon fodder, they don't need strength, mind, accuracy and weapon skills. As long as this soldier has Health and Agility, its good enough for them to go to the front line, and they're expendable.
Realistically, weapons that can bypass covers are Mortars, GLs, Gas/Chemicals, armor piercing weapons and nuclear bombs. Many varieties of indirect and direct weapons would work and i don't see the need for FT to be one of them. At the moment, its one of the most damaging weapons in the game, effective against all aliens and you can get it immediately.
Anyway, I did start the thread to discuss mostly machine guns or heavy weapons. If anyones got some tips and experience, do share it with us.
For what it's worth, I don't believe in using certain agents as cannon fodder. I know I wouldn't want to be the picked to be "cannon fodder". For me, everyone goes home. We play for keeps, and keep everyone alive to the absolute best of our ability. Yes, someone has to take first position through the door, but we wait the aliens out as much as possible, and frag frag frag, flash flash flash rooms first.
-
but we wait the aliens out as much as possible, and frag frag frag, flash flash flash rooms first.
I had to quote this.... its not a warzone my friend its a civilian populated area... you dont throw frag grenades into a house that is occupied by civilians... Well unless you are willing to go in front of the international court of justice and explain why you murdered a bunch of civilians... "because i wanted to clear the room" is probably not going to be enough for the mostly european international court..
Onto heavy weapons... Myself and others have pointed out the very limited capability of weapons like the MG the Rocket launcher and teh grenade launcher ... While the GL is the most useful of the 3 its far from realistic... There were men i personally saw fire grenades 150 meters into a 1 x 1 meter "window" target.... the GL in this game is lucky to fire 20 meters... ... The difference between "soft cover" and "hard cover" is not even approached in this game... and lets be honest... If i shoot a wall with a rocket launcher even if there is reinforced concrete the guy on the other side is not going to be happy... (and he sure as hell isnt going to hear the same ever again) ...
of the 3 heavy weapons the GL is the most effective at this point lacking behind is the MG and lastly the RL.... id like the MG more except there is no way to set someone for suppression fire and a few other nifty things LSW's are good for...
Personally ive found the smg to be the best weapon in the game for TU-shots-damage ratio..... the worst being the machine gun as far as ballistic weapons go.... between the Flamethrower the RL and the GL the only one worth a crap is the GL....
If you were allowed more than 8 men in a squad there might be specific instances a RL or a FT would be good... but ive found none in the game...
also... I know the MG does less damage than the AR... however.. in my .... unfortunate experience with wounded people... Ive found the 7.62 x 51 and every other round fired by LMG and LSW in the world withi the exception of the SAW fielded by the US Military... is a lot heavier and hits a lot harder than the AR rounds.... taking into account that most militaries well the ones that abide by the convention use standard ball rounds... a well placed Machine gun round will take a mans leg off at the knee.... while a well placed AR round will damage the knee beyond repair but usually wont dismember the victim...
In other words.. with the game engine and other programmed factors you've nerfed heavy weapons to where they arent even heavy anymore... except in weight ..... nerf the SMG it needs it badly... the standard SMG in my mind shouldnt even be able to penetrate alien armor... When you think smg think automatic pistol.. thats for all intents and purposes what it is...nerf it ...
-
"I had to quote this.... its not a warzone my friend its a civilian populated area... you dont throw frag grenades into a house that is occupied by civilians... Well unless you are willing to go in front of the international court of justice and explain why you murdered a bunch of civilians... "because i wanted to clear the room" is probably not going to be enough for the mostly european international court.."
The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.
-
The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.
Well I always confirm there is no civies in a room before i start throwing high explosives in there.. Sorry that im wary of the Geneva conventions and such... I take my personal experiences from tactical assaults and try to implement them into my strategy in the game.. Its a fault i understand that... But its also what makes me a better officer/soldier than you... 3 weeks in iraq and youd be in front of a court martial thats for sure :-)
in WW2 it was a little different... Europe was so battered by war we expected civilian populations to leave and well sometimes we didnt care... now everyone cares.. you cant shoot this jerkoff you cant throw a grenade into an occupied house... there are rules and if you dont abide by them you face court martial or war crimes tribunal... I know Im a perfectionist But i look at that kind of thing before i charge into a room guns blazing.. Actions have consequences and you better be able to live with them.
you also totally missed my point about the heavy weapons which is what i really want read... so , i will , necro it and hopefully not be in trouble.. since that was the important part of my post.
Onto heavy weapons... Myself and others have pointed out the very limited capability of weapons like the MG the Rocket launcher and teh grenade launcher ... While the GL is the most useful of the 3 its far from realistic... There were men i personally saw fire grenades 150 meters into a 1 x 1 meter "window" target.... the GL in this game is lucky to fire 20 meters... ... The difference between "soft cover" and "hard cover" is not even approached in this game... and lets be honest... If i shoot a wall with a rocket launcher even if there is reinforced concrete the guy on the other side is not going to be happy... (and he sure as hell isnt going to hear the same ever again) ...
of the 3 heavy weapons the GL is the most effective at this point lacking behind is the MG and lastly the RL.... id like the MG more except there is no way to set someone for suppression fire and a few other nifty things LSW's are good for...
Personally ive found the smg to be the best weapon in the game for TU-shots-damage ratio..... the worst being the machine gun as far as ballistic weapons go.... between the Flamethrower the RL and the GL the only one worth a crap is the GL....
If you were allowed more than 8 men in a squad there might be specific instances a RL or a FT would be good... but ive found none in the game...
also... I know the MG does less damage than the AR... however.. in my .... unfortunate experience with wounded people... Ive found the 7.62 x 51 and every other round fired by LMG and LSW in the world withi the exception of the SAW fielded by the US Military... is a lot heavier and hits a lot harder than the AR rounds.... taking into account that most militaries well the ones that abide by the convention use standard ball rounds... a well placed Machine gun round will take a mans leg off at the knee.... while a well placed AR round will damage the knee beyond repair but usually wont dismember the victim...
In other words.. with the game engine and other programmed factors you've nerfed heavy weapons to where they arent even heavy anymore... except in weight ..... nerf the SMG it needs it badly... the standard SMG in my mind shouldnt even be able to penetrate alien armor... When you think smg think automatic pistol.. thats for all intents and purposes what it is...nerf it ...
-
"Quote from: Aiki-Knight on October 17, 2008, 07:36:59 AM
The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.
Well I always confirm there is no civies in a room before i start throwing high explosives in there.. Sorry that im wary of the Geneva conventions and such... I take my personal experiences from tactical assaults and try to implement them into my strategy in the game.. Its a fault i understand that... But its also what makes me a better officer/soldier than you... 3 weeks in iraq and youd be in front of a court martial thats for sure :-)
in WW2 it was a little different... Europe was so battered by war we expected civilian populations to leave and well sometimes we didnt care... now everyone cares.. you cant shoot this jerkoff you cant throw a grenade into an occupied house... there are rules and if you dont abide by them you face court martial or war crimes tribunal... I know Im a perfectionist But i look at that kind of thing before i charge into a room guns blazing.. Actions have consequences and you better be able to live with them."
Honestly, what did I just write in response to your lecture? If you're such a vet, why not cut back on the personal attacks and benefit us with your claimed extensive experience.
-
As I see it, the issue here pits uncontrolled firepower against battlefield morality. I think that this point will be moot fairly soon, if it isn't already in the WIP version of the game. From what I've heard, the nations of the world will not take kindly to friendly fire deaths of civilians, much moreso than the oft-inevitable casualties of alien fire. Conversely, the Earth is facing the greatest threat it has ever known, and as such I doubt that PHALANX would be denied any weapons technology for their most vital mission. It would then be up to the individual player to make the call as to whether a weapon or tactic is too much of a risk to the civilian population, and deal with the consequences of every bad call.
With the weapons, they do need to be balanced, especially the heavies. The Grenade Launcher feels like it needs more range, though accuracy could be cut down at range to prevent total overpowering. Rocket Launcher could use a bigger blast; an HE explosion can barely fill up a car or outhouse as it is. Even/especially if it cannot maintain a one-hit kill fr direct hits against decent alien armor, additional splash area could make it seem more like a rocket and not just an over-cumbersome mi-range grenade. The Machine Gun needs saturation and power.
The primary shortcoming for these heavy weapons is weight. They need to be heavy, which the team is working on. Until they have that weight, that burden, I suspect they have to be balanced down to compensate. This results in them being only on-par with medium weapons, which are already better-balanced for their roles. In fact, the balancing is probably overly-so. Once they have the bulk, and their unweildliness is not a mere matter of inaccuracy or reduced damage, they should be much more usable in their proper roles, and will hopefully have their punch and performance adjusted to appropriate levels.
-
Aiki, who's being personal? :o Darkpriest at least sounds that he has even been there, if he hasn't. Not that I have any reason to doubt, but I don't have any reason to believe either. His points I've read so far are believeable and so does he in general, but anyone could dig out the information and pretend to be almost whatever. I support most if not all his words on topic.
Edit: small fixing.
-
Sophisanmus yes more eloquently and diplomatically put i agree with you on all terms..
Juni The words were meant as help not as a put down.. as you might see except for DoctorJ and a few other people i rarely start my posts with an address its mostly meant as public commentary.
As we're on the topic of heavy weapons I want to ask about a heavy bolter gun with a backpack ... I am lead to understand that since you can power small ones a larger heavier one for eventual replacement of the machine gun may be available in the future? not trying to start a debate about it just curious.
-
being sidetracked about morality of war, in my humble opponion; if an alien is alive, he will cause more casulties. the aliens are superior already(supposely) and if protecting civilians are making a huge impact on the combat efficency, it is not worth it. it may just as well cause more deaths in the long run, sure u try to save the civilians, but not to the point you're going to lose your fight, its going to save no one. Think of it this way, if u cant redo a mission and u cant save and load, would you still use the same tactics? human rights and geneva came about after the WII to stop wars and severity of wars, but when survival of humanity is at stake, its of little value. its a contraversial topic and open to interpretation and debate, but moving on to heavy weapons.
First of all, thanks BTaxis for improving heavy weapons, but perhaps information in this thread will be of use.
Heavy weapons contrary to the "Light"LMG that every squad carries, can pump out over 1000 lead per minute, with changable barrels and magazine extensions it will have Greater range, Greater stopping power, greater penetration and sustained bombardment compared to a Assault Rifle. The heavy weapons as such might be too heavy to carry by your average person, and heavy weapons usually involve more than one person operating it. Being the gunner, his assistant and ammunition carrier. The 5.56 have reported having troubles of penetration of Soft covers while 7.62 can break through the same covers, whilst the Real MG rounds, being 13.6mm or 0.5Cal can penetrate brick walls and as a matter of fact demolish them in several rounds. Then we have our Cannons, which i think logically orknoks or soldiers with implants will carry. 20mm - 30mm rounds like what the A10 warhog will have, it goes through tank armor and uses up 20 rounds per second. Most automatic guns you will find in FPS might have information of 600RPM, but do calculations and you'll find that fully automatic will chew through 30 round clips in less than 3 seconds, compared to 10 odd seconds in most video games.
To sum that up tactically, Heavy weapons should be hard to move, operate, uses up alot of ammunition to the point of usually requiring the whole squad to carry ammunition but delivers enough firepower that the whole squad can be based around. Ammunition is usually the biggest issue, as soldiers have a big kit with them already, but since firebird dosnt have a armory in it, its not imbalanced. LMGs are Semi - Heavy weapons.
For rocket launchers, its actually so accurate that you can use as a sniper, and it does splash dmg, and uses small tus as u run out of cover to shoot, dive back into it then reload.
Assault Rifles are called so because its a political term by Hitler himself, it in reality is not really different to a SMG, think of carbines which are half way in between. It was revolutionary because it was more capable than a Rifle at close range, mind you trained british marksman can pump out 10 accurate rounds in a bolt action rifle in less than 5 seconds. It out ranged and had better accuracy and stopping power than a SMG back in WII. it out performed all "standard" infantry weapons. Now it is the standard issue, it offers no advantage and as a matter of fact. Insurgency in Iraq run in 3 cell groups of RPG, LMG and Sniper, where Assault Rifle is complete abolished. ARs are good standard weapons, but offers no real advantage, just something to think about. Since i am chinese, we actually used(not personally) Ak47 as a SMG because of its poor accuracy whilst T81 was used as an Assault Rifle, now phased out of regular army by T95 and T03.
Attached grenade launchers are a different issue, although i am not asking for that to be implemented into the game, i might just be carrying off in a rant so i'll just stop here :) I didnt have time to spell check this time around as i am in a hurry, so just bear with me for abit.
-
Heavy weapons contrary to the "Light"LMG that every squad carries, can pump out over 1000 lead per minute, with changable barrels and magazine extensions it will have Greater range, Greater stopping power, greater penetration and sustained bombardment compared to a Assault Rifle. The heavy weapons as such might be too heavy to carry by your average person, and heavy weapons usually involve more than one person operating it. Being the gunner, his assistant and ammunition carrier. The 5.56 have reported having troubles of penetration of Soft covers while 7.62 can break through the same covers, whilst the Real MG rounds, being 13.6mm or 0.5Cal can penetrate brick walls and as a matter of fact demolish them in several rounds. Then we have our Cannons, which i think logically orknoks or soldiers with implants will carry. 20mm - 30mm rounds like what the A10 warhog will have, it goes through tank armor and uses up 20 rounds per second. Most automatic guns you will find in FPS might have information of 600RPM, but do calculations and you'll find that fully automatic will chew through 30 round clips in less than 3 seconds, compared to 10 odd seconds in most video games.
I understand where you are coming from and agree... however you would agree that a good LMG operator can use suppression fire for 2 minutes using 4 to 6 round bursts every 2 seconds... approximately 240 to 360 rounds..Sustained fire is not reccomended past 5 to 10 seconds.. Its SOP to have a 2 to 3 man squad operating the LSW's now used in lieu of "medium to heavy machine guns" .... I dont know a man in the world that can carry the 13.5mm (also known as the great .50 cal) and its best to have 4 men to operate a .50 if its to be mobilized... 1 for barrels (they need to be changed) 1 for ammunition (500 rounds standard barrel man usually carries 200 RDs) 1 for the tripod (also carrying 100 RDS to 200 RDS) and one for the actual gun itself *usually a 2 man job* ... with the soldier limit of 8 MMG and HMG support is not feasable... In my opinion the only 2 heavy weapons in ufo are the rocket launcher (not effective enough with the current engine) and the GL which is seriously under-ranged.... i agree that at range the accuracy should decrease.... also including factors like line of sight etc....
All I would like to see is the ability to have support "suppression" fire... without having to make it reaction fire... other than that i think everything else has been fully explained and discussed...
I as always am still immensely enjoying the game when i have the time to play it
-
I understand where you are coming from and agree... however you would agree that a good LMG operator can use suppression fire for 2 minutes using 4 to 6 round bursts every 2 seconds... approximately 240 to 360 rounds..Sustained fire is not reccomended past 5 to 10 seconds.. Its SOP to have a 2 to 3 man squad operating the LSW's now used in lieu of "medium to heavy machine guns" .... I dont know a man in the world that can carry the 13.5mm (also known as the great .50 cal) and its best to have 4 men to operate a .50 if its to be mobilized... 1 for barrels (they need to be changed) 1 for ammunition (500 rounds standard barrel man usually carries 200 RDs) 1 for the tripod (also carrying 100 RDS to 200 RDS) and one for the actual gun itself *usually a 2 man job* ... with the soldier limit of 8 MMG and HMG support is not feasable... In my opinion the only 2 heavy weapons in ufo are the rocket launcher (not effective enough with the current engine) and the GL which is seriously under-ranged.... i agree that at range the accuracy should decrease.... also including factors like line of sight etc....
but you're forgetting something, you're assuming the targets are human, whilst the aliens + their armor are very resistant to bullets and such supressive fire dosnt work nearly as well. Therefore, it makes sense to use something with greater firepower than our weapons that are designed on the basis to kill humans / animals not aliens. It would appear as if you're using pellet rifle aginest the aliens, and thats where i thought the "heavy" weapons can come in. We're not asking the soldiers to march 30km everyday, all the heavy equipment gets carried to the destination via the firebird. I wouldnt mind having an entire squad supporting 1-2 heavy weapons, whilst the entire tactics can revolve around it. If go we go back to W2, the infantry squads with exception of americans are all based around Mgs, and in ancient times we had our armies in support of heavy chariot / battle platforms. Afterall its all in the sense of variation of tactics, and coming back to modern times mechanised forces or infantry are in support of tanks/IFV, where the main core is revolved around the tank/IFV. Light infantry has advantage of flexibility and surprise, we do not have latter in said game. Mechanised forces ofcource have their short comings, but if used correctly and with initiative, it offers much more raw power. i am using mechanised forces as a reference to tactics, not asking for such an implement into the game since vehicles are already to be implemented.
-
but you're forgetting something, you're assuming the targets are human, whilst the aliens + their armor are very resistant to bullets and such supressive fire dosnt work nearly as well.
I have only ever experienced combat against humans.... so I can only offer advice on my experience...
I did however bring up the subject in another thread that alien armor technology and other factors such as homeworld gravity and atmospheric conditions would change just how tough the aliens are...
I wholeheartedly agree that the standard SMG and assault rifles we use today would have little to no effect... Although id sure like to take an AK-47 out and see how effective it is against these buggers as the standard assault rifle in the game seems to be the same nato 5.56, Although more accurate, I prefer the punch of the 7.62x39... you can hit your target all day long but if you dont damage the target the weapons effectiveness is negated... The SMG in this game is entirely too powerful and the heavy weapons not powerful enough...
If the 13.5 was available to use and it took 4 men to handle each one yes i wholeheartedly agree id send 2 squads with 50s and mop up everyone aliens, civilians too stupid to run etc.... Taking into account that our governments dont care about the collateral damage... or hoping they dont...
Fuu on a personal note did you serve in the chinese military or just study them? The reason i ask is they are close to surpassing The United States in overall military capability and strength and I look to them to develop the weapons of the future... factoring in things like population, GDP, industrial capacity etc...
-
I think its interesting how AK47 is told to lack accuracy, but when you have trained marksman, they could still hit an apple at 300 meters, its only a matter that not everyone can do that.
A funny thing is that, the Army was happy with the T81 assault rifle which used 7.62, which had the ruggedness of an AK but 40% more accurate. Many weren't happy to see the new T95 assault rifle with 5.8 rounds, which lead to the development of T03 Rifle, that compliments the T95 bullpup. AK have been completely phased out of all of chinese military, but kept in reserve or for training purposes. Whilst T81 are given to paramilitary forces.
Here is 2 videos of 12.7mm machinegun at work. the first, the gunner was firing tracers, and its interesting to see how rounds perform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcM3eKO4F1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwu3ivAJ68U&feature=related
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately i have not served in the Chinese military, although all Chinese who choose to go to college has military training for usually a week or more. usually disciplinary stuff, to march in formation in sync. but i fully support this aspect, it helps fitness and makes the next generation more disciplined and respectful.
The Army itself actually is improving at a moderate/slow rate due to low funding ratio to the GDP, and since china haven't had conscription for 50 years, the military is actually downsizing to help improve leadership, quality and corruption. The military used to be seen as a job when you cannot get any other jobs, the military tried very hard to change that image, and now they've actually got a proper recruiting process that actually will be hard to get in just as a rifleman. Although, the Chinese only have 2.2million active service, the reserve of roughly 1 million is almost all veteran and can be turned into NCOs turning conflict. The paramilitary service 4 million is used as 3rd line soldiers or irregulars and in peace time it is the "armed" police force, dealing with issues such as terrorism and dangerous gangs. The volunteers that would arise is estimated to be 5 million if china is to go to war, and up to 20 million volunteers if Chinese mainland is to be invaded. This is to cover the huge land mass. The industrial capacity especially in the case of ship building has been advancing very rapidly, i think, china has the more industrial capability in shipbuilding in the world at the moment.
The doctrine itself however is focused on protecting mainland china and the chance of Soviet / Russian invasion. Which is why the military was heavily focused on Depth defence with Army, with little Far reaching capabilities such as Aircraft carriers. At the moment, china has no war experience for over 20 years, and the military itself is untested. The army itself have reduced training from 3 months down to 2, and time served from 3 years down to 2 in the 90s. and in terms of quality, where the army used to have top soldiers, are now in Airborne, Marines and special forces. the army still has good soldiers, but nowhere near the quality of that fought in Korean conflict.
A good website to find out about the chinese military without BS from western or chinese media is www.sinodefenceforum.com
-
Thanks fuu... The link is very interesting... .. I agree also that the Ak47 has been given a very bad reputation by mostly western media and american hollywood... no trained soldier fires on full auto... The m16 doesnt start to outperform the AK as far as accuracy goes until about 100 meters.. even then the difference is very small... Ive always preferred stopping power...
Which is why i dont like the "heavy" weapons in this version.. However 2.3 should be interesting as they have added 3 new weapons... I will give my "opinion" after ive reviewed this version of the game...
On a side note.. I fully support compulsory conscription... for both genders.
On the first youtube video you notice the concrete wall the russian is shooting at is completely demolished after the 6th or 7th burst... :-) this is what im talking about in complaints about hard cover soft cover and what size weapon is firing..
AS far as the man carrying the 50 cal.... notice he isnt aiming very well and he doesnt have more than 10 rounds... Also has the weapon on single shot which must be a modification because I have never personally seen a non sniper rifle .50 cal that had anything but Full rock and roll.... however it is an interesting perspective... 1 guy carries and 2 guys trail behind with the ammo belt? I wonder how far he could carry that thing...
-
AS far as the man carrying the 50 cal.... notice he isnt aiming very well and he doesnt have more than 10 rounds... Also has the weapon on single shot which must be a modification because I have never personally seen a non sniper rifle .50 cal that had anything but Full rock and roll.... however it is an interesting perspective... 1 guy carries and 2 guys trail behind with the ammo belt? I wonder how far he could carry that thing...
For most people, not very far. But, then again you notice all different kinds of people in the army and the world respectively. Someone that is 7 foot and is 90%+ muscle should have no problem carrying such a weapon for hours. With mechanical enhancements like you see in current future soldier concept, which allows soldiers to carry more weight make it quite plausible. Would be interesting to see strength attribute affecting how much a person can carry, or how much ap is required per step with the weight on soldier. Fact of the matter is still, a HMG and MMG will produce enough firepower equivilent to dozens of infantryman with standard weapon.
-
Interesting "fact". One weapon - one target at a time. Dozen infantrymen, one to dozens targets at a time. Depending totally on target's armor when heavier weapons become more efficient. 5.56NATO or 7.62x39 are both very efficient against unarmored enemy soldiers (and civilians etc...), and even with modern protection the HURT a lot, causing damage through the protection, even if the round doesn't go through. Just to bring feet back to ground.
Exoskeletons might be interesting feature.
-
Also has the weapon on single shot which must be a modification because I have never personally seen a non sniper rifle .50 cal that had anything but Full rock and roll....
Long time, no type! I don't regularly go to this forum anymore, but since my name got mentioned i felt obligated to pay a visit. The M-2 [or 'Ma Deuce'] machine gun can have its bolt release locked, which means the bolt has to be manually released after each firing. A USMC sniper [Carlos Hathcock] became relatively famous for using it with a home-brewed scope mount during the 60s in Vietnam.
As to this KORD thing, i don't have any direct experience with it. However, that barrel looks pretty slim to me, and i don't think it could sustain a very high rate of fire before softening up. In any case, there's no practical way to aim the thing short of watching where the bullets hit - at least in the standing position, that is. The prone position would be much better for accuracy as well as to handle the recoil. However, i don't think any marketing video is going to show the operator trying to stand up while carrying that load.
-
12.7mm+ weapons like the Barrett M82 or similar would make perfect sense if you are fighting aliens which are much harder to kill than human enemies. But as long as we are talking about highly mobile small infantry squads they would only be used in a sniper role. If you need 12.7mm machine guns as support weapons a small infantry squad is simply not enough for the job.
For machine gun such a squad would rather use 5.56-7.62mm. Even then you will likely need a second man in the team to carry additional ammunition for the machine gun. A machine gun has better accuracy than an assault rifle on full auto mainly because it's heavier and has handles better suited for holding it stable while firing. It is often used as a defensive weapon when the squad is moving. Put it close to the front of the squad and if you walk into something hostile use it to put a lot of bullets in the air quickly and make the enemy seek cover while the squad start to withdraw from the encounter. Another small fact about machine guns is that they are great weapons at distance (300-600m). The technique is to fire long enough bursts (15 rounds) and look at the hits rather than the iron sights to "aim it in". This of course most efficient when you have a good line of sight and much less so with smoke and/or artillery shells exploding all around you. But still a lot more useful than a sniper rifle would be under those conditions.
I would say a machine gun is best used outdoors. Indoors in small confined spaces it's simply not possible to use it to it's full capacity.. not to mention that the sound it makes in a confined space can make your whole team deaf ;)
To make heavy weapon use in the game realistic I think you would have to look at the big picture and balance the whole combat system, then tweak the properties of each individual weapon according to the role you want it to fill. At the moment I am not familiar enough with the game to offer any advice on that, but if you need any input on infantry tactics I would be glad to help.
-
Will there be suppression fire effects in the game?
EDIT: Would it possible to have the machine gun (and other comparable weapons) reduce the TU of targeted aliens? instead of doing damage...the MG would reduce the TU of applicable aliens? (and vice versa)
-
I don't think so. Sounds like a needlessly complicated game rule.
-
Sounds like it though I have little experience coding. The flashbangs are cool enough.
-
I don't think so. Sounds like a needlessly complicated game rule.
this is where programming overrules realism..... realistically suppression fire is not needless nor complicated... in fact.... its a very basic principle of firearm combat and very important when you are in a firefight... the general rule is to keep your opponent(s) pinned down while your team moves in for the kill.... people especially the untrained tend to be very distracted while a wave of bullets is flying at them.
-
Reading the thread from the beginning, I didn't realize SMGs were so useful. I've always used MGs, and they've always been the next most effective units after snipers. :-\
-
Coilgun is now king.
-
Yeah the coil gun is sick! It makes the bolter rifle useless in my opinion. Far too quickly because of production time.
-
I've loved the coilgun ever since it was first put into the trunk.
Talk about speaking softly and carrying a big "boom stick..."
-
Yeah i use only two coil guns right now, maybe I should look into a 50-50 mix instead. The only human weapon I never seem to use now is the shotgun. I always have at least one mg and now i no longer replace the mg with a heavy laser (i take the laser too) so that is a lot of fire power.
-
Coilgun is now king.
Yeah the coil gun is sick! It makes the bolter rifle useless in my opinion. Far too quickly because of production time.
Yeah i use only two coil guns right now, maybe I should look into a 50-50 mix instead. The only human weapon I never seem to use now is the shotgun. I always have at least one mg and now i no longer replace the mg with a heavy laser (i take the laser too) so that is a lot of fire power.
Well, i believe what we have here are simply opinions and good feedbacks that will go towards helping to balance these weapons.
Perhaps i will open a new thread on this.... ok, i will....
Here it is (http://ufoai.ninex.info/forum/index.php?topic=3461.0).
-
My mixed thoughts on the different weapon classes:
* Heavy weapons. Made to lay down a heavy rain of fire with accuracy, even at distance. The trade-off is weight and mobility. Good for defense of strong points. My suggestion: Make them powerful, but wildly inaccurate if fired while standing. If fired crouched (which is as close to prone as we get), very accurate. Also, make it cheap in TU's when crouched.
* Sniper guns. Not much more powerful than any other rifle if one looks at the ballistics, but add some to the damage anyway, as they do tend to get more accurate hits. The same applies as for heavy weapons, require crouched to be accurate. Relatively expensive in TU's.
* Assault rifle. The jack of all trades. A trade-off between range, mobility and firepower. Gives decent accuracy when standing, decent damage and decent TU usage.
* Submachinegun. The nimble gun, the little brother of the assault rifle. Less damage than an assault rifle, less range. However, more accurate when standing, and uses much less TU's, so it's good for close quarters indoors combat.
* Pistol. Really not very useful if you have a working primary weapon. Quicker (in TU's) than the submachinegun, but less accurate, slower rate of fire, less damage.
* Grenade launcher. To launch lots of firepower at a distance, even lobbing over obstacles. Good when you don't care about accuracy and just want to do much damage to an area. Needs much better range, more powerful ammo (bigger blast), but also needs crouching for good accuracy. Even so, the grenades should not be too accurate, especially not on auto. Give them a nice spread.
* Rocket launcher. Basically, like the sniper, but with more punch and with a big blast. Good to accurately take out tough targets. Slower (more TU's).
* Knife. Seldom used as a weapon, more used as a tool.
* Grenades. Much like the grenade launcher, but with shorter range. Range is even shorter if crouched. They also need to be a bit more powerful.
* Smoke grenades. To cover an advance or retreat. Needs more area and more effective smoke.
Apply these guidelines on alien weapons as well, as applicable.
Note how I've used the standing/crouched as a way to give each weapon their own distinct usage. I know prone is not on the plan at the moment, but it would further enhance the possibilities to make the weapons more different.
In general, make the weapons different, so that your tactics will dictate which weapon to use. Avoid getting stuck in a watered down "everything is the same" balanced system.
-
Hey all
I've been neglecting heavy weapons with the exception of flame throwers because I cannot find a tactical use for them. The only time that I do use one, is when I cannot find better replacement soldiers with the appropriate skill.
flamethrowers works very good in combat inside buildings usually take alien one hit instead of all other weaps wchich need more hits.
-
The reason why militaries no longer use [the flamethrower] as much is because [...] its dangerous to allies if flamethrower is hit [...]
This is a late comment, but I just wanted to point out that this is not entirely accurate, though the rest of fuuuu's reasons are pretty right-on. It's mostly Hollywood's fault we think a flamethrower always blows up if it's shot; then again, where Hollywood is concerned, everything blows up if it's shot.
To quote the book Weapons of the WWII Tommy, "It should be noted that flame thrower operators did not usually face a fiery death from the slightest spark or even from having their tank hit by a normal bullet as often depicted in modern war films. The Gas Container [i.e. the pressurizer] is filled with a non-flammable gas that is under high pressure. If this tank were ruptured, it might knock the operator forward as it was expended in the same way a pressurized aerosol can bursts outward when punctured. The fuel mixture in the Fuel Containers is difficult to light which is why magnesium filled igniters are required when the weapon is fired. Fire a bullet into a metal can filled with diesel or napalm and it will merely leak out the hole unless the round was an incendiary type that could possibly ignite the mixture inside. This also applies to the flame thrower Fuel Container."
-
i think you can use heavy weapons to create a distraction since they only poke the aliens and then get the enemy from its flanks with assaults and snipers, altrough snipers are good to be use on moderate to long range
and fuuuu what if it creates a spark on the canister?if the mix is sensitive then it will blow up... i guess
-
Heavy weapons (mainly the machine gun) is one of the best weapons in the game. I used it throughout 2.3 because nothing survives the 25 TU long burst. It more than "poking" them a little bit. ;) What you need are > 35 TUs so that you can move crouched a bit, shoot, move back.
Andy
-
and fuuuu what if it creates a spark on the canister?if the mix is sensitive then it will blow up... i guess
Military flamers fired diesel, and that doesn't ignite on a spark.
-
Ah, but the flamer in UFOAI doesn't fire diesel or any 'normal' type of flamer-thrower fuel, it fires Compound 90 (C90) air-fuel from a small 200mm canister.
now if you burst one of the canisters... well... your pretty much as good as fuck fucked because as the name suggests, air-fuel ignites on contact to air... well, no, it technically ignites air...
but that still doesn't stop me using flamers as one of my primary weapons in my teams.
-
I organize my squad into two teams. Each team has two aslt riflemen, a grenadier and a machine gunner. All are equipped with the best armor available, IR goggles, medikit, two frag grenades, an SMG w/1 reload as a sidearm. Each rifleman has an aslt rifle w/1 reload, the machine gunner has a...wait for it...machine gun w/1 reload, and the grenadier has a grenade launcher w/2 reloads. I'd like to be able to stock add'l weaponry and ammo on the transport in the event the spot I land at calls for different capabilities.
Tactically the grenadier is center of mass of the team, the two rifleman in front and to the sides, the machine gunner usually trails. The rifleman usually are the ones that stumble into something, back off and let the heavy weapons reaction fire, sometimes finishing off survivors. As weaponry improves the job titles and tactical roles remain. The grenadiers are usually the ones that have to grab the SMG when they find themselves in a spot they don't want to bounce a grenade off of. This'd be your basic point-blank surprise.
I'd like to be able to predefine equipment loadouts so that when I replace casualty X I can just say, dude, you're now a grenadier, here's your box of stuff, put it on.
-
I'd like to be able to stock add'l weaponry and ammo on the transport in the event the spot I land at calls for different capabilities.
I'd like to be able to predefine equipment loadouts so that when I replace casualty X I can just say, dude, you're now a grenadier, here's your box of stuff, put it on.
Yeah good suggestions.
-
Well, I've only been playing this game for less then a week now so I'm no expert on heavy weapons in game terms. However heavy weapons are used in the following ways in real life military tactics:
In General: Heavy weapons are usually squad support weapons. By this we mean that they are designed to support the force at squad level. Machine guns are the most common for this purpose today. Heavy weapons have the following traits in common they all - possess above average or greater firepower, they are designed for specific applications, they usually require riflemen to support the heavy gunner, and in return support the riflemen, are usually few in number due to their weight, time required to deploy, and the limited number of tactical applications for which they excel at. Heavy weapons are vital in building a well balanced, well prepared fighting force.
Machine Gun: Machine guns are designed to kill lots of lightly armored target such as massed light infantry forces. Machine guns that fire a heavier caliber shot, such as the 50. cal M60, have sufficient power to punch through light armor such as jeeps and trucks. Machine guns are usually standard issue squad support or platoon support weapons. When machine gunners take to the field they are usually supported by one or more riflemen who are usually employed to prevent flank attacks on the gunner. A machine gun may have a crew of two (1 gunner, 1 reloader) though some modern day machine guns are usually simple and light enough to be carried and fired by one man.
Rocket Launcher: These heavy weapons are usually designed to take down heavy armor such as enemy main battle tanks. Rocket launchers usually consist of a firing tube, a internal explosive charge, and rocket. Some are one shot weapons while others are reloadable. Rocket launchers have changed significantly in the last 70 years however the basic concept is the same. Rocket launchers are bulky and heavy and can be dangerous. Usually a rocket launcher has a kill zone that exists behind the person firing it. Anyone caught in this kill zone at the time of firing will be killed by the launcher's incendiary and over pressure effects so a person firing a R. Launcher should make sure his rear is clear of friendlies before firing, if possible. Weapons of this class fire two types of munitions those that fire specially designed grenades are capped rocket propelled grenades or RPGs and those that fire a traditional rocket. RPGs are heavily used by terrorists to take down clusters of infantry, the most common RPG in use today is the stinger.
Grenade Launcher: Grenade Launchers are similar to a RPG except that they usually have a somewhat smaller explosive yield, do not require line of sight, and can usually be used many times as they tend to be reloadable. A grenade launcher is yet another support weapon unlike rocket launchers and depending on the rounds used can be effective from anything from light infantry to light or medium armor. Grenade launchers are primarily used when you need the explosive yield of a R Launcher but the versatility and angling capability of a grenade. More primitive and archaic grenade launchers fired actual grenades and consisted of a tube or explosive plate that lobbed grenades via a crimped rifle shot.
Flamethrower: Another weapon that excels in a specific situation. Flamethrowers are normally employed to kill enemies within considerable fortifications that are either too hard or well designed to be taken down with rocket launchers or grenade launchers or where either weapon simply can't reach the people inside. Sometimes you just gotta cook a dude out. A flamethrower consists of a fuel tank attached to a chemical feed tube the propellant travels up the tube and out the barrel of the "gun" somewhere along the line the chemical passes through a pilot flame and ignites creating a jet of fire that is expelled under high pressure to increase the range and consistency of the fire stream. Some flamethrowers rather then use a flame to ignite the fuel use a second chemical that when combined with the first produces a flame. Flamethrowers can also be used to create a sort of mobile no mans land while moving across a open field but if the fuel tank is hit by enemy fire it is likely the flamethrower person and anyone near him will be engulfed in a ball of flames as the unit explodes so caution must be used when deploying these weapons.
Did I miss any heavy weapons?
-
Did I miss any heavy weapons?
Particle Beam Cannon
Plasma Blaster
Minigun (if you want to include multi-player)
However, I doubt you have any RL-experience with the first two. :)
-
Particle Beam Cannon
Plasma Blaster
Minigun (if you want to include multi-player)
However, I doubt you have any RL-experience with the first two. :)
Your right. LOL.
I was never in the military I'm just familar with war in general because I study it like a religion. :XD