UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: stevenjackson on June 02, 2008, 02:30:42 pm
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I've seen some mention of pilots as a new personel type.
Is this a serious consideration or idle fancy? I'm curious to see what people's views are.
Steve
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It has been part of our design plan almost since the beginning. Until recently we didn't have the models, but now we do, so the only thing holding us back is the lack of code for pilots to influence aircraft stats.
And for them to replace medics in the interface.
Regards,
Winter
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yes pilots should exist....
the #1 complaint of any air force or navy officer when they lose an aircraft is the cost and time it takes to train a pilot.. and not necessarily good ones... good pilots are even harder and more expensive (more training less men(women) capable of doing the job that well)
Replacing the equipment is the easy part.
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Winter
Is there any documentation on what kind of influence is intended for pilots on aircraft?
I have just modified the code to remove medics from the game as per the discussion on the forum and was wondering what to do with the medic employee type.
Steve
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Winter
Is there any documentation on what kind of influence is intended for pilots on aircraft?
I have just modified the code to remove medics from the game as per the discussion on the forum and was wondering what to do with the medic employee type.
Steve
By all means, replace medics with pilots! I would be extremely happy if you did. I don't believe there's anything specific written up yet, but I'll be glad to provide you with any information you need.
Pilots' individual skills should reflect and influence most aircraft stats (Speed, Manoeuvre, Range, Targeting, ECM) on any aircraft to which they're assigned. Rookie pilots shouldn't make a vast difference in how an aircraft performs, but elite pilots certainly should. Another, possibly hidden stat would be Survivability, which governs the chance of a pilot living through being shot down. We already have some research topics drawn up for new equipment and aircraft upgrades to improve Survivability.
I'm not sure whether or not we should display hard stats on pilots' effectiveness on modifying aircraft. However, given that their influence might be a little subtle at fist, I wouldn't object to displaying hard stat bonuses on the aircraft.
Regards,
Winter
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Mind you, a lot of the stuff you mentioned isn't actually implemented yet.
Also, how about a simple in-game representation, like a 0-100 bar? The pilot would effectively have one "skill" that would affect all the things you said (possibly even negatively, if below a certain value). Since pilots aren't the focus of the game, I think that would be appropriate. They shouldn't be as complex as soldiers.
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Mind you, a lot of the stuff you mentioned isn't actually implemented yet.
Also, how about a simple in-game representation, like a 0-100 bar? The pilot would effectively have one "skill" that would affect all the things you said (possibly even negatively, if below a certain value). Since pilots aren't the focus of the game, I think that would be appropriate. They shouldn't be as complex as soldiers.
They should have fewer skills, I agree, but making it one bar would make it pretty pointless. You wouldn't be able to optimise layouts for particular pilot and aircraft combinations, etc. etc. That kills a fair chunk of the gameplay for pilots.
Regards,
Winter
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In my opinion the pilots are too minor a game element to warrant such in-depth micromanagement. It would be enough to have just one skill - which would, of course improve with served time and survived engagements. That way it becomes a matter of which craft you put your veteran pilots in and which ones you man with rookies. A simple choice, but just about right for this part of the game.
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In my opinion the pilots are too minor a game element to warrant such in-depth micromanagement. It would be enough to have just one skill - which would, of course improve with served time and survived engagements. That way it becomes a matter of which craft you put your veteran pilots in and which ones you man with rookies. A simple choice, but just about right for this part of the game.
I couldn't disagree with you more, but we'll have to discuss it tomorrow. I'm off to bed now!
Regards,
Winter
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Hmmm...a pilot could have the following skills:
EVASION (increased missile defense)
DOGFIGHTING (influences close-range combat performance)
SURVIVAL or CRASHLANDING(chance to survive crash, increases the number of components you can salvage when the craft goes down)
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Often pilots are only certified to fly certain types of aircraft dependng on their training.
Maybe there could be some way to incorporate this without being too anoying for the player.
Steve
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I think that's impossible. It certainly is if the player is me.
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To start with i think we would need to add the mechanics of hiring a pilot and getting them on and off aircraft before adding any modifiers.
This may require new screens and such.
Also we probably want to require an aircraft have a pilot before it takes off.
Btaxis found the pilots models, i just need to get it into a md2 format to be used.
Steve
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We also need someone to create a new rank image for pilots.
At the moment i'm still using the medics image.
Steve
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Another issue is how to assign the pilot to the aircraft.
The easiest way seems to be to reuse the "assign soldier" functionality, but this seems overly cumbersome since we will be only assigning one pilot per aircraft.
So what do people think, whats the best way to assign the pilots?
I'm not very good at the UI stuff in c. So if someone is able to design such functionality i can make it work in the code.
Steve
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Under "equpment"?
Installing the pilot will be complete in 2 hours!
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Actually, yeah, I think pilots should be handled as a special kind of equipment.
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Well then i hope they don't take 2 hours to install.
Thats a long cigarette break even for a pilot! ;)
Steve
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"The plane is till on the ground? You there, what's wrong with this pilot?"
"Faulty software sir!"
"Can't you jury rig some hardware solution?"
"Uuu...I could Sir..But it would involve a baseball bat and risks further software damage."
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Another issue is how to assign the pilot to the aircraft.
The easiest way seems to be to reuse the "assign soldier" functionality, but this seems overly cumbersome since we will be only assigning one pilot per aircraft.
So what do people think, whats the best way to assign the pilots?
I'm not very good at the UI stuff in c. So if someone is able to design such functionality i can make it work in the code.
Steve
I would recommend the following:
A screen featuring a graphical list of pilots with their stats, and a separate list of aircraft. The aircraft entries would have a box showing which pilots are currently assigned to that aircraft (if any). If no pilot is assigned, the box should simply be black.
I don't know how to put that together in the UI, but it seems the most logical and functional design.
Regards,
Winter
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I would recommend the following:
A screen featuring a graphical list of pilots with their stats, and a separate list of aircraft. The aircraft entries would have a box showing which pilots are currently assigned to that aircraft (if any). If no pilot is assigned, the box should simply be black.
I don't know how to put that together in the UI, but it seems the most logical and functional design.
I really, really don't want to spend any extra functionality or interface on pilots. It's too complex and involved for such a minor game element, and it isn't in the game's best interest. I want pilots to be simple affairs, as I've described earlier in this thread. Making a whole new screen for them is horribly overcomplicating things.
[edit]
Incidentally, I found that pilot model in data_source. There does not appear to be a female version, though...
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I really, really don't want to spend any extra functionality or interface on pilots. It's too complex and involved for such a minor game element, and it isn't in the game's best interest. I want pilots to be simple affairs, as I've described earlier in this thread. Making a whole new screen for them is horribly overcomplicating things.
Entirely fair comment, that was just the simplest implementation I could think of. Cramming the same sort of idea into the aircraft screen would be ideal, but I don't see where we could fit them!
We'll have to do some brainstorming.
Also, I retract my previous comments on pilot skills in favour of BTAxis's single skill bar proposal. Less micromanagement and player headache. If people want more pilot functionality they can always mod it in!
Regards,
Winter
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Note that in tactical combat, pilots would actually have the full range of skills that any soldier (or alien or civilian) has, for purposes of combat calculations. However, as pilots aren't supposed to be soldiers, I think it should suffice that these skills be generated for the purpose of the tactical mission in question only, and discarded afterwards.
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Note that in tactical combat, pilots would actually have the full range of skills that any soldier (or alien or civilian) has, for purposes of combat calculations. However, as pilots aren't supposed to be soldiers, I think it should suffice that these skills be generated for the purpose of the tactical mission in question only, and discarded afterwards.
That might look a little bit odd, though. If the same pilot crashes, is rescued with a combat mission, and then crashes again with another combat mission, he may end up having wildly different combat stats in the two missions. May be quite confusing to the player.
Regards,
Winter
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Pilots as soldiers looks doable - another skill, reasonably high, somewhat at expense of other skills. Question is: is it necessary? I suppose in a pinch, if the team is being massacared, the pilot can jump out of the cockpit and lay down some cover fire or help load the injured. Not a good situation to ponder.
Think of this: pilot goes to fight, and ends up dead. So, 8 guys load the plane with dead alien buddies, captured artifacts, then look at a each other: "Ummm, does anyone know how to drive that thing?"
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That might look a little bit odd, though. If the same pilot crashes, is rescued with a combat mission, and then crashes again with another combat mission, he may end up having wildly different combat stats in the two missions. May be quite confusing to the player.
Possibly, but I don't think a player would remember one set of stats from one mission to the next. Also, we could hardfix the stats to some exact set of values so all pilots would have the exact same stats in all missions. I don't mind doing that, since the pilots aren't really supposed to make a real difference in combat, so their stats would be so low as to make any random fluctuations irrelevant anyway.
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Is there really any point having stats or such for pilots if they don't have any effect?
Just don't have pilot stats at all and only have the aircraft require a pilot to be able to take off.
Steve
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That defeats the point of having a pilot at all. They've got to have SOME effect.
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As far as I know, the planes do have a single seat for trooper right? why not just use that slot somehow and have some affect on the air fights?
I mean pilots can have: maneuver, close and long range fight skills, and experience (which comes along, not start from 0. Could be "mind" perhaps?)
I would think pilots with more experience plays better than some noobs who are trigger happy and not able to judge the situation from previous engagements. Well, close enough since I don't think any of them have ever fight a UFO before their first flight...
And as other troops, the pilot can hold equipments and weapons and armors to increase survival rate. I mean plane got shot down doesn't always means pilot dies with it. Could be that they ejected and/or down with the aliens and have to fight for survival.
Then maybe the plane can be equipped with even more things like , escape pods, parachutes, etc, for higher pilot survivability rate if the plane got shot down. Can still add those now for the survivability of the troops if the landing ufos ever got up and attack the transport..
Edit: it seems i spoke too soon without reading it all. i guess it was already suggested.
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Btxis
I agree, you had said that pilots wouldn't have high enough stats to make a real difference in combat.
I think they should make a difference in combat, especially once they have some flight experience. But they certainly shouldn't be the determining factor.
Steve
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Generally, the pilot shouldn't take part in the mission except to stay with the aircraft and defend it from being taken over. Combat transport pilots don't go on the mission with their squad. Never heard of any army doing this. They could use weapon, but wouldn't have a full combat loadout.
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Btxis
I agree, you had said that pilots wouldn't have high enough stats to make a real difference in combat.
I think they should make a difference in combat, especially once they have some flight experience. But they certainly shouldn't be the determining factor.
Steve
Like Aiki-Knight said, pilots shouldn't take part in battles unless forced to, by a crash or ejection or whatever. The pilot's job is not to endanger himself on the ground, but to fly the airplane. There's enough risk there without putting him in stupid amounts of danger in a job for which he isn't trained.
Oh, BTAxis, I had one more idea I wanted to run by you. In addition to the stat bar for piloting skill, how about another bar for 'leadership' or 'tactician' skill, where the highest leadership value in a flight is selected and gives a small bonus to all members of the same flight (including UAVs)? We can discuss the subtler applications on IRC, but I think this is an interesting twist which we can put in without overcomplicating pilots as a concept.
Regards,
Winter
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Heh, i think i misunderstood.
By combat i meant of the air to air type :)
Steve
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Sorry guys.
Now that i have actually reread the posts properly...
The pilots main effect should be in air combat.
I dont think they really should participate in tactical combat at all, but having hard coded stats for tactical combat (low stats) is probably a decent idea.
Steve
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everything medicore....12-15 points...and they should be armed with a pistol + ammo + medikit.
If nothing else, you can use pilots as medics.
Speaking of which, maybe have the shiva cannon on the firebird shoot at aliens in visual range (assuming hte pilot is in the cockpit), even when the craft landed? It's on a gimbal mount anyway, right?
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Are we thinking pilots are always deployed with soliders in all tac missions?
I would suggest pilots only come out to play in tac missions when the ship is damaged.
Steve
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Click on the dropship cockpit and order the pilot to come out...lol!
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Sorry if I caused any confusion. What I meant was *tactical* combat, i.e. the battlescape. The pilots should not really be of much use there. they should, of course, be a serious factor in UFO interceptions - the geoscape. Those are two completely different things.
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They killed all the civilians!
Pilot! Lift that thing up and fire that gun into those bastards!!
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Sorry, you didn't cause any confusion.
You were clear in saying it was tactical combat.
I just misread your post.
Steve
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I agree with BTAxis's older post (about the 0-100 bar), because I think
this will be great IF it stays rather simple.
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There are 10 types of man around the world:
- Who are binary
- And who are not :)
Sorry for the (bad?) joke but I suggest you to be careful with simplification. At the end it should worth implementing it...
-geever
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You'd be amazed at how often something simple is better than something complex.
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How about just adding "Piloting" to stats? That shouldn't be too hard to implement and is not confusing.
"Assign soldiers" would still do the job nicely :)
I'd also like to be put in position to defend myself from the aliens when they take my aircraft down.
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with limited number of soldiers it would be a terrible solution
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From what I've played, my aircraft was almost every time losing against UFOs, so having a pilot seems useles unless the aircraft doesn't get destroyed everytime. I'm imaging that the pilot gets xp and performs better as times passes by.
If you are going to implement a pilot, then the pilot should be (in my imagination) like a soldier, able to use weapons and equipment, but once he's dead, you can't take off, so it's your gamble if he fights or not. The pilot should have some mediocre combat stats, though, or basic training like close weapons, etc.
However, X-Com and other similar games didn't feature a pilot, and I didn't feel that he was missing. In Fallout Tactics any squad member could drive the car/tank (some were better drivers than others). OFC piloting an aircraft is different, but I was thinking that a pilot isn't essential.
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If you are going to implement a pilot, then the pilot should be (in my imagination) like a soldier, able to use weapons and equipment, but once he's dead, you can't take off, so it's your gamble if he fights or not. The pilot should have some mediocre combat stats, though, or basic training like close weapons, etc.
that was my thoughts exactly
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Pilots and Naval Aviators would be ideal in the game as they would have decisive roles.