UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Tactics => Topic started by: breversa on May 21, 2007, 06:51:55 pm
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I've found one tactic that make the flamethrower quite effective despite its not-so-short range : indoor reaction fire (flamethrowers rule indoor anyway !).
Give a flamethrower to a FAST trooper, set his/her reaction fire to multiple shots, place him/her along wall, one square away from a door, facing it, and end turn.
If an enemy goes through the door, your flamer will most probably turn it to a crisp in one shot or two. If not, however, he'll be in trouble, so give him the heaviest armor you have.
Of course, this method also works with other weapons (SMG anyone ?) and does not take advantage of the length of the flame, as only one enemy can cross the door at a time.
But so far, that's the best and most frequent use of my flamethrower soldier. :)
Any other flamethrower tactic ?
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I have given up on using the flame thrower. It just doesn't seem to harm the aliens at all. And now you're telling me you can turn somebody into a crisp with reaction fire?! Am I doing something wrong?
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It may depend on the difficulty level you're playing the game : the easier, the less resilient the aliens are.
But remember to give tour flamer to a FAST trooper and set reaction fire to MULTIPLE SHOTS so that s/he gets to fire at the alien first and more than once.
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I'm playing on difficult. I find the assault rifle to be a much better choice, as it has superior range and seems to deal more damage as well.
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I'm playing on difficult. I find the assault rifle to be a much better choice, as it has superior range and seems to deal more damage as well.
I'd have to agree with this. On harder levels, the flamethrower is an amusing toy, or a good backup to someone with, say, a rocket launcher, for tight spaces.
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I'm not playing on difficult (yet), so I guess that's why my method works for me but unfortunately not for you... :(
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Going from medium to difficult seems to be a rather big step. I still think a flexible difficulty system would be great. One were you can set the difficulty of different aspects, like:
Appearance of Ufos/Terror missions/base attacks (seldom, medium, often, very often)
Alien AI (poor, medium, smart...)
Alien equipment improvement rate
Amount of aliens appearing during a mission
Human equipment, recruits, etc
Human unit skills
Alien unit skills
.
.
.
You get the idea ;)
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I haven't used FT's for a while now, but back in hte good ol' days when I did I used to use them as a spotted weapon - that is I'd have a couple of troops scouting for them, and they'd only ever attack aliens that had already been seen. Preferably through a door or window so there's lots of cover nearby.
However the short range really is a problem so they didn't last in the inventory very long - I think my last one is at a subsidary base for base defence....
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I play on hard difficulty and have a different impresssion. Actually FT is one of the most effective weapons. With inferno it burns almost everything in one blaze. It never misses. Sure, you need to get within those 8 squares. But that`s doable usually. And often more safe than straight shotout with aliens.
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I play on hard difficulty and have a different impresssion. Actually FT is one of the most effective weapons. With inferno it burns almost everything in one blaze. It never misses. Sure, you need to get within those 8 squares. But that`s doable usually. And often more safe than straight shotout with aliens.
It's fine if you're using it in a team with someone with a longer reach. The problem with it is crossing any open spaces, or long corridors. The FT is a fine weapon if you're close and can inferno, or double inferno (I play Very Hard). If you don't have the TU's for this, or you're forced to run for over half your TU's to get in range, it's ineffective, and downgraded to toy status.
Couple a FT with an SMG on RF, or a Missile Launcher and a smoke grenade to hide behind until it's your turn, and it's a perfectly feasible weapon. It's just not a great choice for more then one, maybe two, of your soldiers.
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Flamethrower:
Useless in very hard save in conjunction with heavy flashbang use, otherwise, it's instant death versus most aliens. The problem as mentioned earlier is that there are better weapons with greater range (even amongst the conventional roster), so there's rarely any compelling reason to really use it. My weapon mod (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1710454&group_id=157793&atid=805244) addresses the flamethrower's obsolesence by increasing its damage signifigantly. This, coupled with its fire type damages, allows it to retain usefulness as an armour defeating weapon.
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It's fine if you're using it in a team with someone with a longer reach. The problem with it is crossing any open spaces, or long corridors. The FT is a fine weapon if you're close and can inferno, or double inferno (I play Very Hard). If you don't have the TU's for this, or you're forced to run for over half your TU's to get in range, it's ineffective, and downgraded to toy status.
Couple a FT with an SMG on RF, or a Missile Launcher and a smoke grenade to hide behind until it's your turn, and it's a perfectly feasible weapon. It's just not a great choice for more then one, maybe two, of your soldiers.
Yes, exactly. I use just 1-2 soldiers with FT. It`s a specialized weapon, but at close quarters it IMHO surpasses other conventional guns. Neither SMG nor shotgun is as accurate at 8 squares with full auto (or 3-round burst with flechette).
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While they may not be as accurate, most weapons are about as lethal at that range, and many have comparable damage/TU ratios. Personally I have never encountered a situation where the flamethrower (unmodified) would be preferable to every other weapon.
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Well:
FT inferno is 12 TU for 180 fire dmg. Once within 8 squares it won`t miss.
SMG - 14 TU for burst, 125 dmg. Reasonably accurate, but to low dmg, and 2 TUs more than inferno. 20 TU for full auto, 375 dmg. Target needs to be within 4-5 squares to catch most bullets. Good dmg, but it`s 20 TU vs 12 for inferno...
Shotgun with flechette - can`t recall the exact cost, bu it`s over 14 TU for 3 round burst, ~260 dmg. Must be really close (3 squares recomended), flechettes spread a lot. But sure, good dmg, however TU cost is significantly higher than FT`s inferno. Full auto - 27 (?) TU, over 600 dmg. Spreads even more, and is VERY costly TU wise. Also it empties the magazine. Dmg is over the top, but that`s it.
Obviously FT is useless outside the 8 squares range. But over this distance, IMHO assault rifle starts to beat other close combat guns, due to it`s high accuracy even on full auto.
Now, take into account, that armors usually have much higher resistance (IIRC about 20 protection more) to bullets, than to fire.
Of course it looks different on various difficulty levels. At certain point these 180 dmg from FT just doesn`t cut it, and flechette shotgun will reign supreme.
In above comparison I didn`t take into account weapons, that you can discover. Quite likely you will get bolter rifle early on, and it`s a strong competition for close range fights. Plasma is even better. But then, these hi-tech toys are supposed to be better, no?
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The SMG is signifigantly more lethal than the flamethrower at close range. Even factoring in damage/TU efficiency ratios:
SMG Full Auto: 375 / 20 = 18.75
Flamethrower Inferno 180 / 12 = 15
That's a signifigant difference of 25% in terms of efficiency. Even if a few of the SMG's shots missed at that range (doubtful assuming your soldier has good accuracy and assault weapons skill), it would still probably be signifigantly better than the Flamethrower. Keep in mind that the SMG is also effective at range, whereas the Flamethrower must be used up close.
The assault rifle is also more lethal than the flamethrower:
Assault Rifle Full Auto: 296 / 18 = 16.44
This is to say nothing of the higher tech weapons which are signfigantly better at all ranges.
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for a complete list of such calculations see
http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Damage_rate_vs_distance
this includes an estimate of hit probability.
I will be improving it to reflect things like flamer only has a short range.
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That's assuming targets have the same resistance VS bullets and fire...
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Looks like I`ve got to recall my statements :) Unless FT has indeed 100% accuracy regardless of circumsatnces, but I`m not sure of that. Time to give that non-stylish SMG a go ;)
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I do assume targets have same resistance to all damage types, so far.
I intend to tabulate some armour info too.
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I don't have much experience with the higher difficulty levels, but wouldn't weapons proficiencies play a factor whether or not to use the flamethrower. Currently, the flamethrower is the only heavy weapon at the beginning of the game. Thus, if you have a soldier who's only skilled at heavy weapons, then the flamethrower would be useful until other heavy weapons are developed.
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The SMG is signifigantly more lethal than the flamethrower at close range. Even factoring in damage/TU efficiency ratios:
SMG Full Auto: 375 / 20 = 18.75
Flamethrower Inferno 180 / 12 = 15
I'm a new to this forum, but I like the game a lot and I'm pretty good with numbers. The calculations that you have given above are true, but it seems like you'd need to include the TUs spent in reloading the SMG and AR. (I'm not sure what they are, but that might give a slightly different look.)
I don't recall the number of 'shots' you would get with the FT with the 'Inferno' option, but IIRC it's at least 2 and perhaps 3.
Just thought I'd spend a few of my TUs on this.
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Looks like I`ve got to recall my statements :) Unless FT has indeed 100% accuracy regardless of circumsatnces, but I`m not sure of that. Time to give that non-stylish SMG a go ;)
I've never seen a flamer miss--if the alien is in the flame area, the alien gets toasted. And I always have one on my squad, and the flamer trooper has so far racked up the most kills (followed by shotgun and sniper, though the later is irrelevant at close range). Despite the short range (and the SMG doesn't reach much further in practice) it is extremely reliable, and you get the possibility of toasting more than one opponent (my record is three) with one go, although the aliens rarely oblige you by lining up to be roasted. Additionally, on normal difficulty at least, the standard candlelight (8 TU, 1 shot) will take care of the weaker aliens, making it quite efficient.
I had one guy with the SMG once; he did passably well before dieing. Full auto is a TU-whore and woefully inaccurate, and if you're close enough to make it worthwhile it usually ends up being overkill. While on the tougher beasts, even multiple five-round bursts just won't cut it.
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I love the Flamethrower...
Every squad has one. He/she goes on ahead, as assault trooper. The others cover his/her deployment from range. Perfect to clear houses from a window, when aliens has no way to retaliate.
Perfect when they exit houses... just put him/her two/three spaces away (to avoid close combat, which could kill him/her in one shot with kerr blades or plasma blades) and everyone gets burned and charred...
Playing Normal, that's it, but the FT is just great to see, too...
How I feel powerful when shooting an Inferno burst....
;D
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I think flamethrower is cool, but i have given up on it. My guys tend to get killed too easily, and I cant rely fully on reaction fire (sometimes 2 or 3 aliens run out from a room...)
swanwarrior, i really wonder how you can apply this on every map. There are a few maps where I dont think a flamethrower makes any sense.
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swanwarrior, i really wonder how you can apply this on every map. There are a few maps where I dont think a flamethrower makes any sense.
True, but unless you know in advance that you're going to be on, for instance, the druglords map, i use it more times than not. Since the dropship lacks a built-in armory, the alternative seems to be to carry another weapon in the backpack and drop whichever one looks unusable on the current map.
As an anecdote, today i cleaned out a crashed Harvester without the BEMs getting in a single shot. I positioned my FT man right at the wall where they usually come out, and put him on 'Multiple Reaction Fire'. They politely took their turns walking into his flame... That, combined with a nice shot from my Sniper, finished them off before Turn 2!
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Yeah i personally like combining my guys into fire teams to sweep and clear, i keep my ft set to reaction fire while one i have as sniper rifle to do the longer ranged work and another guy with a machine gun to mow down a mob if i run into them and last i have a grenade launcher to do the finishing kills on my turn, and whenever the aliens assault me the ft just kills all who come down. so far i get very limited casualties.
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Flamer guy gets the heaviest armour and takes the lead. Flamer is aweome in close range, but if you leave him behind any troop, there's a chance he'll fry his own man :-\
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What heaviest armour? In early game there is only one armour that can be used, or?
I love flamer for close ranges but for me it is simply not worth it to use it, especially because I have had
situations where aliens survived the flames and then shot my flamer guy down, it just seems easier to use SMB
and run from cover to cover rather than enter houses with flamers
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What heaviest armour? In early game there is only one armour that can be used, or?
I'm reasonably sure he meant that whatever was the heaviest armor he had, then that's what the FT guy got to wear. Obviously, in 2.2 the only choices are Combat Armor and Nanocomposite. As an aside, does anybody know about the "Advanced Combat Armor" in the 2.3 version? It appears to have the exact same stats as the regular...
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As an aside, does anybody know about the "Advanced Combat Armor" in the 2.3 version? It appears to have the exact same stats as the regular...
Sounds like a marketing trick!
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first sorry about my bad english...
I think the flames must burn longer.. and the flames must more agressiv.
in moment it
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In my opinion the flamethrower is kinda the ultimate suicide weapon. I like the damage and the accuracy but I get real nervous having my soldiers that close to the aliens...gonna try a flamethrower, SMG team but I donno, seems like I'd be reserving so many TUs for rxn fire that my team would be moving too slow.
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The flamethrower is built for close quarters engagements, and that's where it excels at, which means indoors. Outside they're a sitting duck which is why I always equip mine with a decent pistol to use at range.
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The flamethrower is great even on hard difficulty (I started playing the game on hard). Inferno sweep can do incredible damage to multiple targets. I had one man equipped with a flamethrower kill 4 Ornoks in one turn. I may have landed a grenade in the middle of the group before he went in, but still. He turns around the corner, turns on inferno sweep, fires twice for 24 TU's, and down go 4 Ornoks. Lets see if the SMG can do that! :)
Obviously, the flamethrower is situational, because the combat shotgun or assault rifle probably works better at close quarters when we're talking about single targets. I gave my flamethrower guy a laser pistol so he can cover his own advance if he's going across a large expanse with cover objects lightly scattered throughout (though I almost always advance in squads of 3 or 4). When he's about to close the distance, out comes the flamethrower. One of my favorite weapons, honestly.
-Vox
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I like the flamer sometimes, but in general i tend to use heavy lasers.
Flamer works best when you have 2 or more in a row- just use full force and watch greenies go down one by one in few seconds. The cheapest mode works fine with even two moderate aliens in a row
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in my opinion this is the worst weapon with the rocket launcher running a close second..
at least the flames should shoot 10 to 20 meters like a real flame thrower
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LMAO yeah...the flamethrower is for sure...WAY too short in its range. Even WW2 units had WAY more reach than this weapon currently in the game. It's more like a Flamespitter, and could use some tweaking :D
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i think they were going for the aliens flamethrowers.. only problem with that is those ones sucked compared to the ones we used in ww2... wasnt aliens set in like the 2200s lol
apparently flamethrower technology like minigun technology (hah burn winter) goes downward as we get more advanced lol
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i think they were going for the aliens flamethrowers.. only problem with that is those ones sucked compared to the ones we used in ww2... wasnt aliens set in like the 2200s lol
apparently flamethrower technology like minigun technology (hah burn winter) goes downward as we get more advanced lol
ROFLMAO :D
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hey, look, the aliens can't be good at everything. The arcane art of a barbecue ahs been lost to the Galactic Consortium. With all the plasma/particle tech around, why, there has not been an open flame seen in centuries!
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Dan, he was referencing the weak and very lame flamethrowers that you see in the "Alien" movie series. Which is why I was laughing so hard. They were hastily thrown together with a small pressurized ( propane for the actors safety ) fuel canisters and had the range of maybe...15-20 ft or so? Basically as a real life weapon, such a unit is totally ineffective to say the least and would be more a hazard to anyone carrying it than the enemy.
WW2 units and todays modern REAL flamethrowers could and will incinerate a hostile as far away as 200 ft or even a bit more. Which is why I said, that the in-game unit could use a small bit of tweaking...but perhaps that would throw off game balance?
Besides, the use of a "flamer", is hazardous to a soldier...it's a bit HEAVY, and also makes the soldier have to get fairly close to a target...maximizing his / her chance of taking hostile fire.
Overall, the best use of flamethrowers IRL is to mount them on vehicles ( weight ), and in- game they would be really great on UGV's if the effective range was "increased" to something viable.
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Oh, I see. And fully agree on the flamethrower use. I recall reading that in WWII flamethrower guy had a great chance of gong up in flames from a hit on the fuel canister. The hand-held unit was not used after Vietnam, right?
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Flamethrowers were only really used to burn out machine-gun bunkers and tunnels at close range. They're obviously not a ranged weapon. I think 200ft is pushing it.
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Aiki-knight,
I am pretty sure you're thinking WWII-Korean war hand-held weapons. You are absolutely right, close range only, bunker-cookers. The 200ft is something that is designed to support advancing infuntry. Think 60s-70s. I recall reading that Soviets had one (on a BMP) and the NATO forces must have too. A psychological weapon as much as anything else - supposed to make the enemy wet their pants and anandon otherwise defensible trenches.
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I'm impressed.
Sometimes I wonder how people know so much about things like the history of flamethrowers. Daniel?
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Would it be possible to code a system where the first shot from a flamethrower cost a fair amount of TUs and did moderate damage, and each subsequent shot cost a reduced amount so long as the user does not move? It could be something like this: [Torch: 6TU] and [Sweep: 8TU] would be the defaults, and after using one or the other subsequent uses would cost 3 TU less for the same or slightly increased damage.
If this is possible, there is also the potential to add this sort of functionality to auto-fire modes; i.e. an additional auto-fire action for a reduced cost. Of course, that wouldn't mean individual shots could be bought, just another full set. It would be an interesting feature, but I suspect it might be a low priority, if any, right now. Still, might as well put it out there.
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@ VoxDissident: I can't speak for others, but i am fascinated by paper-and-pencil type wargames. I've accumulated quite a stash of rules/resources books, and some of them offer useful real world data on various equipment.
@ Aiki-Knight, DanielOR: I won't bring in any vehicle-mounted weapons. The WWII Flammenwerfer had a practical range of 20 meters, while the 1960s Warsaw Pact model LPO-50 worked out to 65 meters. I think this was done through higher pressures and a more accurately machined nozzle. However, the range is still a problem - this is why flamethrowers haven't been used since the Vietnam War. U.S forces now use a rocket [the M202 'Flash'] as a replacement for the FT. It's just too bad that we can't get something this in UFO.
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Well, that may be the case. But it's not a widely deployed weapon. Hmm. If it's so good, I wonder why we never see it. I mean, what does wind do to such long flames? Surely the flames are extremely dangerous for collateral damage over such distance. A little wind and you could fry nearby civilians or your own agents. I'd certainly love to flood a room with flame to burn out an alien, but it seems like a super-flamethrower would definitely present a lot of problems, even if the thing worked.
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Well, that may be the case. But it's not a widely deployed weapon. Hmm. If it's so good, I wonder why we never see it. I mean, what does wind do to such long flames? Surely the flames are extremely dangerous for collateral damage over such distance. A little wind and you could fry nearby civilians or your own agents. I'd certainly love to flood a room with flame to burn out an alien, but it seems like a super-flamethrower would definitely present a lot of problems, even if the thing worked.
Its not used mainly for the public relations and ineffectiveness.... its a horrific way to die and when people saw that on tv during vietnam it didnt go over too well... in 1978 the DOD removed it from the arsenal of the military.... the only modern military that uses any flame weapons is the russians... Theyve always been fond of flame weapons... They have a few APCs and tanks that have them as the mounted weapon...
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I would have to say that using the flamethrower on aliens does seem to me fitting with the game's theme, but in my opinion it does need to feel more impressive and impactful, if unwieldy.
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People, this is slightly off-topic, but don't forget rocket powered flame based weapons. M202 Flash and RPO-Z Schmel for example. Both in use. So much about humanity-aspect...
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I'm sorry, I was short on time in my last post. To sum up a thought from another post which I think is pertinent here, PHALANX would not be denied any viable military technology to combat the greatest threat ever known (excepting, perhaps, those causing widespread environmental or population damage), within the discretion of the commander/player. That said, the Flamethrower is just a blip on the inhumanity scale, especially when is not intended for use on humans.
I also feel that a more imposing flamethrower effect would not be outside the theme of the game. Many fictional anti-alien forces have pursued sterilization, through fire or other means, of alien sites. Once humans begin to be infected/affected, I could believe that teams would carry a flamethrower man to clean things up (whether or not there is any gameplay significance, it still thematically fits).
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I have noticed that wet shots have not yet been mentioned. Wet shots are unignited, sticky shots of liquid that could be layed about in a zone or in a line and ignited with any lighter. This creates tactical implications due to it being able to mine a certain area.
"Flamethrowers pose many risks to the operator. The first disadvantage is its weight, which impairs the soldier's mobility. Flamethrowers are very visible in the battlefield, and so operators become prominent targets for snipers. Historically, flamethrower operators were rarely taken prisoner, especially when their targets survived the impacts of the weapon; in reprisal, captured flamethrower users often were summarily executed. Finally, the flamethrower's effective range is short in comparison with that of other battlefield firearms, i.e. for effective use, flamethrower soldiers must approach their targets closely, risking exposing themselves to close enemy fire.
The risk of a flamethrower soldier being caught in the explosion if enemy gunfire hits the flamethrower is exaggerated in Hollywood films.[1]
“ It should be noted that flame thrower operators did not usually face a fiery death from the slightest spark or even from having their tank hit by a normal bullet as often depicted in modern war films. The Gas Container [i.e. the pressurizer] is filled with a non-flammable gas that is under high pressure. If this tank were ruptured, it might knock the operator forward as it was expended in the same way a pressurized aerosol can bursts outward when punctured. The fuel mixture in the Fuel Containers is difficult to light which is why magnesium filled igniters are required when the weapon is fired. Fire a bullet into a metal can filled with diesel or napalm and it will merely leak out the hole unless the round was an incendiary type that could possibly ignite the mixture inside. This also applies to the flame thrower Fuel Container.[2] "