UFO:Alien Invasion
Development => Artwork => Topic started by: Blywulf on May 05, 2007, 05:42:08 pm
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Hello everyone!
I took a look at the things that your art dept. needs and it seems that you're currently focused on 3D models and textures. I can create 3D models in 3DS Max but I never had the patience to learn how to properly rig and texture them. In other words I'm not a 3D art expert and that's why I'd like to offer my services as a 2D artist. I can do concept art, pencil sketches as well as full blown large scale colorful pictures. The problem is I'm not sure what sort of 2D art is currently needed (drawings for the UFOpaedia? Concepts of both alien and terran equipment? Loading screens?) so some advices and requests are most welcome.
Samples of my pieces of art (fan art for WoW, WAR etc.):
image1 (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/ironbreaker2.jpg)
image2 (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/charger.jpg)
image3 (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/DwarfRanger4small.jpg)
Oh and since it's my 1st post here I just wanted to thank all those who contributed to the project - awesome job guys. UFO:AI seems to have the same atmosphere that X-com used to have. Playing it brings back some memories. :D
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Great, finally a 2d artist :) I like the 3rd one.
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Great stuff,
Looks good. :)
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This looks really cool - great work.
There are some 2d arts needed to improve our menu images and e.g. for the ufopedia. we will make a list of 2dart that is needed and will send it to you - thanks for your offer.
best regards
martin
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We absolutely want 2d artists for UFOpaedia illustrations. In fact, it's one of the areas in which we've been vitally under-staffed. I'd go so far as to say un-staffed. We currently don't have anyone working on it.
So yes, we would be very happy to have you on the project, Blywulf. One of our current major needs is a simple abstract drawing to represent the concept of antimatter. Something like this: http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/imageHomeEn/EtoM.jpg
This would be displayed in the UFOpaedia as the image of the Antimatter research topic. I'd be very happy if you'd give it a go.
Regards,
Winter
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I can just re-iterate what Winter said, Illustrations for the ufopedia are one of the things we really need, be it alien technology, autopsies, physical characteristics or similar. (generally anything we can't do in 3D for whatever reason ;))
Werner
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Alright then! I'll get to work right away. A word of warning though: I work out of town and since I dont have a laptop I cant do any digital art when I'm away from home. I return for weekends every two weeks. So, expect updates on a bi-weekly basis (at least for the next 2 months :)).
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Ok, here's my attempt at the illustration associated with the 'antimatter' UFOpaedia entry:
(http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/antimatter5.jpg)
It may seem a bit sloppy in some places but I'm guessing it's probably going to be a lot smaller once it gets integrated into the UFOpaedia. I hope it will look just fine. :D
As always, comments and crits are welcome.
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looks great to me. nice one.
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Absolutely awesome for me, though Winter will decide whether it fits or not.
I hope you will contribute for us with 2D art. :)
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Excellent work. I'm definitely eager to see more such contributions.
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Brilliant, I love it! It'll be an awesome addition to our UFOpaedia.
Maybe next you'd like to try your hand at the Alien Breathing Apparatus? The research article (i.e. description) for it is available on the wiki, you should have no trouble finding it.
For references, I'd like the image to look somewhat like this: http://www.cleanair.utah.gov/images/how_pollution_affects.gif
That is, a silhouette of an alien (preferably Taman, definitely not Ortnok), with the breathing apparatus fully-drawn in the appropriate location.
Regards,
Winter
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I got back home a week earlier so I had some time to spend working on a pic of the Alien Breathing Apparatus. I hope I placed all of its key elements properly (a sphere on each side of the brainstem and a pipe stuck in the trachea) :D. The pic still requires some work. Obviously, the apparatus itself needs some colors.
Alien Breathing Apparatus (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/alien-br-apparatus.jpg)
Not sure if you like the fact that I decided to include an enlarged view of the apparatus. Once I was done drawing the alien's silhouette I noticed that it has to be quite large in order to make the viewer aware of what he actually sees (alien's neck and parts of its internal respiratory system). With a large part of the pic taken by the silhouette the apparatus itself looked rather small. That's why I decided to 'zoom in' on it.
On a side note - I've drawn an entire silhouette of a Taman (Tamans are those skinny blue guys, right? :D), just in case there's a need for some more drawings of alien internal organs.
Taman (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/alien-silhouette.jpg)
Comments and crits welcome.
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I got back home a week earlier so I had some time to spend working on a pic of the Alien Breathing Apparatus. I hope I placed all of its key elements properly (a sphere on each side of the brainstem and a pipe stuck in the trachea) :D. The pic still requires some work. Obviously, the apparatus itself needs some colors.
Alien Breathing Apparatus (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/alien-br-apparatus.jpg)
Not sure if you like the fact that I decided to include an enlarged view of the apparatus. Once I was done drawing the alien's silhouette I noticed that it has to be quite large in order to make the viewer aware of what he actually sees (alien's neck and parts of its internal respiratory system). With a large part of the pic taken by the silhouette the apparatus itself looked rather small. That's why I decided to 'zoom in' on it.
No need to have worried, once again it's brilliant! I hope you'll stay with us, your work shows an intuitive understanding of the writing that blows me away. I'm very happy with it -- it almost doesn't need colours and shading, although they would of course improve the image.
On a side note - I've drawn an entire silhouette of a Taman (Tamans are those skinny blue guys, right? :D), just in case there's a need for some more drawings of alien internal organs.
Taman (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/alien-silhouette.jpg)
Comments and crits welcome.
If you wanted, you could easily turn that (very nice) silhouette into a drawing for the Live Alien topic. Colour the body, maybe draw an airtight holding cell around it, and you'd be done.
Regards,
Winter
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Wow, that's good stuff! Respect!
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really nice work - looking forward to see more - wow
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Yes, you have my appreciation as well. I hope you can do more of this stuff for us. It's fantastic.
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Thanks for all the positive responses guys!
Winter - I do plan to stick around for a while. Working on all those pics is pure fun. I'll do it till I stop enjoying it :). The only thing that I'd like to get is some sort of a list of all the needed 2D images (send me a PM and I'll give you my email address or just use the PM to send me the list). Not just the ones for UFOpaedia but also stuff for other things like loading screens. I'd love to do some concept art for the 3D artists as well.
You've mentioned that you plan to add artwork showing living alien specimens - I can take care of that, no problem. I'll be gone for the next 2 weeks though so I ask for patience.
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Hah, great times for this project :) So many great contributions.
Really cool. Can't wait to see more. I'm so happy :>
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Looks great. :D
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Wow - Blywulf, theses are great 8)
I never thought we would get any kind of drawing/images in the near future for the 'pedia so this thread just makes me really happy.
What sort of application(s)/format(s) do you use for stuff like this? Aside from my own curiosity I would really like to have source files lying around for these sort of things - even if we may never need them :) If that would be ok from your side of course.
EDIT: Oh and if you need reference shots from the 3d models of aliens and other stuff just tell me, I'll provide whatever you need.
@Winter: If you tell me what images to commit & weave in already just drop me a line.
Werner
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Alright, time for an update. I've added some colors to the breathing apparatus - here's the final image:
Alien Breathing Apparatus (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/alien-br-apparatus2.jpg)
Since I'm not quite sure what to work on next I'll just follow Winter's suggestion and do a pic of a living Taman. Once it's done I'll do some work on the rest of the aliens (Ortnoks, Shevaars and whatnot :D).
What sort of application(s)/format(s) do you use for stuff like this? Aside from my own curiosity I would really like to have source files lying around for these sort of things - even if we may never need them If that would be ok from your side of course.
I use Photoshop CS 8.0 and Corel Draw 10. I'm a bit careless when it comes to the size of all the files that I use. I like working on huge scanned images (300 DPI, usually well over 20 MB) so the source .psd files are pretty big. I can resize them and send em your way with all the layers included if you want it.
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first of all: WOW - that looks really beautiful - i think winter will like it, too
yes, please also submit the sourcefiles - i can give you some webspace to upload them if you need it.
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Good job blywulf. 8)
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Thanks guys.
Mattn: Check your PM inbox. I sent you a link to the sourcefile.
---edit---
Question for Winter (I guess) - got some questions about the looks of the Taman.
There are some dark blue patterns covering some parts of their bodies. You can see them on their heads and arms. Do those patterns have some sort of a meaning? Are they ritual tattoos? Do they signify rank (different blue spots for different ranks)? Are they supposed to be symmetrical or are they merely a natural feature of Taman skin and appear randomly all over their bodies?
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Question for Winter (I guess) - got some questions about the looks of the Taman.
There are some dark blue patterns covering some parts of their bodies. You can see them on their heads and arms. Do those patterns have some sort of a meaning? Are they ritual tattoos? Do they signify rank (different blue spots for different ranks)? Are they supposed to be symmetrical or are they merely a natural feature of Taman skin and appear randomly all over their bodies?
First of all -- bloody marvellous job on the Alien Breathing Apparatus. It's stunning.
As for the skin patterns, we haven't ascribed any significance to them. They can be a random skin feature as far as I'm concerned, but they don't really look natural, due to their shape and regularity. The only thing that would make sense given the nature of the alien threat is that these markings would imply a job function or special training of some type.
Unless one of the team has strong objections, random patterns (with no biological significance) all over the body would be fine with me.
Regards,
Winter
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Thanks Winter!
Here's a quick sketch of a Taman with random markings on his skin (all pencil + a couple of rough digital brush strokes). I'd like to get some sort of feedback before I turn it into a fully fledged digital image.
Taman - live specimen (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/taman1.jpg)
Comments and crits required
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Thanks Winter!
Here's a quick sketch of a Taman with random markings on his skin (all pencil + a couple of rough digital brush strokes). I'd like to get some sort of feedback before I turn it into a fully fledged digital image.
Taman - live specimen (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/taman1.jpg)
Comments and crits required
Excellent. I think it's great, so if mattn agrees, please finish it up.
Just so you know, we don't need live Ortnoks and Shevaar, but we do need autopsy images for all 3 aliens, as well as an autopsy and live specimen image for the Bloodspider.
Future aliens will also need autopsy images and some of them will need live images, but we don't currently know how many we'll end up with. I have some models for new aliens but no textures or animation for them. It won't do any good to draw images for them until we have them fully textured and animated.
Regards,
Winter
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Just so you know, we don't need live Ortnoks and Shevaar, but we do need autopsy images for all 3 aliens, as well as an autopsy and live specimen image for the Bloodspider.
Ok, no work for me for the next 8 days so you may expect to see some new pics real soon.
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Ok, no work for me for the next 8 days so you may expect to see some new pics real soon.
That's some of the best news I've ever heard, mate. ;)
My job's going to be very demanding over the next few weeks, I don't know how much I'll be able to be online, so don't wait for feedback from me to get started on a new image. I will try to post as frequently as I can, though -- this forum is one of my priorities. Just don't worry if I don't post straight away.
Regards,
Winter
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i like it, too
but i disagree that we don't need shevaar and ortnok - even if we don't need them for the ufopedia or the storyline, they would be cool for loading screens, menu backgrounds or whatever. I know it's a lot of work, and those are lower priority then those we need for the storyline, but it would be cool if you could create them, too.
again, nice work.
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but i disagree that we don't need shevaar and ortnok - even if we don't need them for the ufopedia or the storyline, they would be cool for loading screens, menu backgrounds or whatever. I know it's a lot of work, and those are lower priority then those we need for the storyline, but it would be cool if you could create them, too.
Yeah, true. I'm sure they'd come in handy for future storyline-related research as well.
Regards,
Winter
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May I ask you for your real name? i added you to the list of contributors (link (http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/CONTRIBUTORS?view=markup))
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Quick update (as promised):
Live Taman (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/taman-display1.jpg)
Obviously, some parts of the alien still need tweaking. I'm not quite happy with its left foot and the lack of skin texture. I'll fix those things later. Also, the display itself seems a bit too wide. That's because I used the background from the alien breathing apparatus pic.
---edit---
Also in the news: I'm almost done working on the Ortnok (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/ortnok1.jpg) sketch :D
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Quick update (as promised):
Live Taman (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/taman-display1.jpg)
Obviously, some parts of the alien still need tweaking. I'm not quite happy with its left foot and the lack of skin texture. I'll fix those things later. Also, the display itself seems a bit too wide. That's because I used the background from the alien breathing apparatus pic.
---edit---
Also in the news: I'm almost done working on the Ortnok (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/ortnok1.jpg) sketch :D
WOW, you are an great artist. 8)
Willem
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wow - really really cool - i've commited them to trunk already
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Blywulf rules !
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Yes he does. Incredible stuff.
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Sheer coolness my friends :)
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Heh, thanks for all the positive vibes folks :D
Here's the first pic from the 'Alien Autopsies' series:
Taman Autopsy (http://home.autocom.pl/bilinski/tamanautopsy2.jpg)
I do not consider this image 100% finished (hence, no sourcefile for you Mattn). I want to add skin texture and tweak the general color balance.
Comments and crits welcome, as always.
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Awesome work! :D
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brilliant - i love it - but winter still has to "sign" it ;-)
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Wow. This game can become better than the original if we keep getting such contributions :)
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Good job,
An nice challenge to make it 3D. ;)
Willem
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Very impressive, Blywulf! I especially love how you represented the internal organs exactly as mentioned in the article, I couldn't have hoped for a better result. Can't wait to see the finished image.
Regards,
Winter
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good stuff! :D
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i suppose you've seen these images:
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ul.jpg?view=markup
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ll.jpg?view=markup
zenerka added your finished images to the ufopedia now - they are really looking very cool.
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i suppose you've seen these images:
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ul.jpg?view=markup
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ll.jpg?view=markup
Umm... I've seen that picture in-game after a failed mission. Is there anything particular about this pic that I should've noticed?
BTW Mattn. I sent you a link to the finished Taman autopsy pic (minor changes, looks basically the same) + a link to the sourcefile.
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i suppose you've seen these images:
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ul.jpg?view=markup
http://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ufoai/ufoai/trunk/base/pics/menu/lost_ll.jpg?view=markup
Umm... I've seen that picture in-game after a failed mission. Is there anything particular about this pic that I should've noticed?
BTW Mattn. I sent you a link to the finished Taman autopsy pic (minor changes, looks basically the same) + a link to the sourcefile.
just for reference for the ortnok painting...
btw. it would be cool if you could create the images in the same dimensions - otherwise they will be scaled in our ufopedia and the ratio doesn't fit (e.g. in case of taman_autopsy)
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Does that mean that the pic will be deformed (streched) once it's integrated into the UFOpaedia?
I planned to use the same background for the other autopsy pics. Since it defines the overall size of the image they could also end up being deformed. Mattn - I'd like you to supply me with data regarding the dimensions of pictures in the UFOpeadia (I checked the Wiki and found some images attached to UFOpaedia entries but I'm not sure if they're of the same size as those in the game).
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If we use picture with the same x and y dimensions, the effect is
very nice (http://voovoos.killfile.pl/roznosci/ufo/ufo05.jpg), while it is not really nice (http://voovoos.killfile.pl/roznosci/ufo/ufo06.jpg) if we take pictures with different dimensions as-is.
And the problem is that we really need to use one dimension definition for every picture in UFOpedia (currently it is 240x240 which is pretty nice).
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"the same background" -- yes please.
as zenerka said - the best would be an image with the same x and y dimensions. i'm sorry that this info came so late - but we have used models until now - your images are the first real nice images in the ufopedia... sorry
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Oh, so it's basically squares only (seems like they fit best), no rectangles allowed... well it does make things kind of difficult. You dont plan to change the general layout of the UFOpaedia window any time soon do you? :D
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All menu nodes are staticaly placed at fixed positions in given menu. If we would like to have rectangles instead of squares as a picture - that is doable of course, but we would have to rearrange all menus and all nodes positions in these menus == a lot of work. But yes, technicaly it can be done.
But even after that still one problem left: all pictures for UFOpedia needs to have the same size (so all squares or all rectangles with the same amount of x/y dimensions).
That is why I personaly think that all pictures as squares is the best option (but I am only a coder and cannot even argue about artwork).
PS Your pictures looks awesome in game - thanks for your contributions!
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Well, I'm not going to force you to change the code in order to showcase some drawings. Although, even the old UFOpaedia in the original X-Com offered a lot more space for artwork:
Sectoid UFOpaedia entry (http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/pics/big/shot0066.png)
I understand that the images should have the same dimensions. I just thought that it's no problem at all to somehow scale them down to proper size in order to place them in the UFOpaedia. There were no alarming signals coming from the dev team after my initial artwork submissions. The fact that those images had (almost) the same lenght of all edges was a pure coincidence.
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@Zenerka: can't you just centre any narrower images horizontally, rather than stretching them? So if it has a width of 150, it gets a transparent border of 45 on each side?
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@ Voller: It still wouldnt solve the issue as all the narrow images would become so small that they'd look like thumbnails.
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@ Voller: It still wouldnt solve the issue as all the narrow images would become so small that they'd look like thumbnails.
Clearly the only option is to restructure the UFOpaedia to make more room for art as well as text.
Also, Zenerka, why are the research result images being displayed in the research screen before they are researched? That's not the idea . . .
Regards,
Winter
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@ Voller: It still wouldnt solve the issue as all the narrow images would become so small that they'd look like thumbnails.
Not necessarily. If you consider the not really nice (http://voovoos.killfile.pl/roznosci/ufo/ufo06.jpg) one, for example: why would you need a square version of it? Aliens (same as humans) tend to be long and slender, rather than squarish, so any square version would not add any extra detail or information. The height of the alien stays exactly the same.
The same is true for weapons, which should possibly be centred on the vertical. Or even grenades, centred vertically and horizontally.
I'm not saying that extra detail isn't good. I'm saying that, if there is no square version of a picture (for whatever reason), there is no need to scrap or redo it.
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Clearly the only option is to restructure the UFOpaedia to make more room for art as well as text.
If it happens then maybe it would be a good opportunity to introduce some alternative designs. Not just for the paedia but for all the other menus and windows as well (I do understand that only the UFOpaedia's layout would change, the rest would have to stay docked as it is at the moment).
@ Voller: I know what you mean but I still would consider those scaled down images a bit too small. If I had known right from the start that their size would be so small I'd have called for more artwork space before I the images were done. :)
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the images must not be that small all over the game. there may be places where they are shown bigger - e.g. a popup which will display the images after clicking them in full size is imageable - and reasonable - due to the great details in your paintings.
but the layout of our menus... what should i say - everybody can feel free to present alternatives - i would implement the ability to switch between different images - like done for the hud. but the underlaying menu scripts must be the same - so tweaking or adding one menu would end up in tweaking or adding this menu to all other themes, too
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the images must not be that small all over the game. there may be places where they are shown bigger - e.g. a popup which will display the images after clicking them in full size is imageable - and reasonable - due to the great details in your paintings.
That's one way to solve the issue but I cant say that I like it. I believe that the images and the text should be percieved simultaneously, creating a homogeneous experience for the player. If you add them as clickable thumbnails then they will not contribute to the general atmosphere of the game as strong as they would if they were presented in their full size along with the text... but that's just my opinion.
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Will they be displayed in the ufopedia itself as well? I like the style of the old x-com with text on the left and a large picture on the right.
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Also, Zenerka, why are the research result images being displayed in the research screen before they are researched? That's not the idea . . .
Nah, that's okay. The graphical representation of the finished research can be displayed before the topic is actually researched. Scientists usually come up with a model image to represent a project even if the results aren't in, so it can be justified.
More importantly, the images on the research screen help a lot towards making that research topic mean something to the player. It makes it more than just a name and a number, and that counts for a lot.
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Nah, that's okay. The graphical representation of the finished research can be displayed before the topic is actually researched. Scientists usually come up with a model image to represent a project even if the results aren't in, so it can be justified.
More importantly, the images on the research screen help a lot towards making that research topic mean something to the player. It makes it more than just a name and a number, and that counts for a lot.
I disagree. The image should be reserved for the UFOpaedia. The size at which the images are being displayed in the research screen doesn't do anyone any good, and their presence reduces the feeling of achievement for actually finishing research -- getting to see a beautiful new image that wasn't available before. That was one of the reasons why research was my favourite part of X-COM.
Regardless of whether or not it can be justified, it's at best a misuse and at worst a waste of this material.
I fully share Blywulf's opinion in this thread. We need to take full advantage of the art, which means giving it a good amount of space directly into the interface. Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.
Regards,
Winter
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The image should be reserved for the UFOpaedia.
Because?
The size at which the images are being displayed in the research screen doesn't do anyone any good, and their presence reduces the feeling of achievement for actually finishing research -- getting to see a beautiful new image that wasn't available before. That was one of the reasons why research was my favourite part of X-COM.
You are being naive when thinking that everyone will feel a rush and immediately go to UFOpedia to read articles and see the pictures. This kind of thinking leads to exactly what you wrote - that is wasting of this great Blywulf's material.
I fully share Blywulf's opinion in this thread. We need to take full advantage of the art, which means giving it a good amount of space directly into the interface.
If this is your only real concern, I see no problem: the images in UFOpedia can be used as-is, with different sizes - according to mattn's response that is doable code-wise.
That does not mean such images needs to be used with such dimensions everywhere.
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Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.
I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess. Anyway, I maintain that using smaller versions of the art are a big improvement over using only a few lines of text, especially in the case of weaponry.
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Pop-ups and small previews kill the visceral 'wow' aspect of seeing a big and brand-new splash of art on your screen.
I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess. Anyway, I maintain that using smaller versions of the art are a big improvement over using only a few lines of text, especially in the case of weaponry.
Why can't the text be as long (or as short), as you want it, with the image placed with a right flush placement, and have the text simply wrap it? It can be as big (or small) as the image needs to be then, the text is perfectly happy, and those of us (like me) who only care about what I get and what's next to research can flip past it to the bottom without much care.
I guess I just feel like I spend one hour in a single map vs. the 30 seconds I flip past a research project (that on the 10th time playing I just want to go away). It's really pretty, and I like the art, and Blywolf does amazing stuff. However, the 23rd time I'm in a project, I really don't care. Can't it be kept both simple and effective (like just about any document software and HTML can do right now)?
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Why can't the text be as long (or as short), as you want it, with the image placed with a right flush placement, and have the text simply wrap it? It can be as big (or small) as the image needs to be then, the text is perfectly happy, and those of us (like me) who only care about what I get and what's next to research can flip past it to the bottom without much care.
Are we talking about the same screen? There really isn't that much space in that panel. Wrapped text would only have a few words per line, and that's very annoying to read.
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Are we talking about the same screen? There really isn't that much space in that panel. Wrapped text would only have a few words per line, and that's very annoying to read.
We're discussing the research results screen that you would see via UFOpaedia or from clicking on a mail link, I thought.
Maybe my widescreen alters my perspective.
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No no, I was talking about the panel to the right of the research screen. Most of that screen is taken up by the list with available technologies.
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No no, I was talking about the panel to the right of the research screen. Most of that screen is taken up by the list with available technologies.
Um... oh. I retract my statement... well part of it... um... who cares what image is over there? A thumbnail on that screen would do me fine, or nothing at all where I had to go into into the 'paedia entry to see it...
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You are being naive when thinking that everyone will feel a rush and immediately go to UFOpedia to read articles and see the pictures. This kind of thinking leads to exactly what you wrote - that is wasting of this great Blywulf's material.
The thing is, seeing all the stuff before you actually discover it is like knowing what your christmas presents look like way before they are unwrapped. There's no thrill involved. I'm not saying that looking at static pics is what makes a game fun. I also doubt that checking out the UFOpaedia would be the first thing I'd do after installing UFO:AI. However, those images do contribute to the game's general feel and have an impact on the player's experience. They should be viewed as a reward and that's why I'd like to keep them hidden till they are unlocked through research (along with all the stuff that influences the game directly, like new weapons and gear).
BTW I seriously hope that a complete research tree will not be available
before new research possibilities appear.
I don't perceive the art to be a big reason why research is fun in X-COM, so I can't say I find this much of an argument. It varies between people, I guess.
You're correct. I'm one of those guys who enjoyed both text and pics in X-Com's UFOpaedia. It was like reading a book with cool illustrations.
However, the 23rd time I'm in a project, I really don't care.
Not caring about details after having played the game 23 times is a natural thing. Wouldnt you like to be given eye candies quite often while playing for the first time though? Besides, if you lose interest in the artwork then you surely skip the text as well. It's still not a reason to make stories shorter or research info more vague.
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Not caring about details after having played the game 23 times is a natural thing. Wouldnt you like to be given eye candies quite often while playing for the first time though? Besides, if you lose interest in the artwork then you surely skip the text as well. It's still not a reason to make stories shorter or research info more vague.
Unfortunately, I incorrectly understood where you were discussing the image being made available. Since the 'we've got a project' and a 'completed project' are two different sections in the 'paedia, I didn't understand the location of the problem... nor the impact.
Yeah, I don't see why we shouldn't just show a big ole '?' for unresearched items, and pretty candy when you get it... at the same time, the research selection screen I can't see needing anything more then a thumbnail after research completion as a reminder... if I wanna see the 'real picture', I'd enter into the UFOpaedia... which can have all of that and more and only available after it's researched.
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The thing is, seeing all the stuff before you actually discover it is like knowing what your christmas presents look like way before they are unwrapped. There's no thrill involved.
But users already - not considering the research menu - can see the pictures before researching - in mail client/UFOpedia, per proposal view, so it is not an argument.
However, those images do contribute to the game's general feel and have an impact on the player's experience. They should be viewed as a reward and that's why I'd like to keep them hidden till they are unlocked through research (along with all the stuff that influences the game directly, like new weapons and gear).
These images have one main purpose: they are supposed to represent research topic in visual form. I definitely disagree about that they should be taken as "reward" - what is it supposed to be? Giving a cookie to users using UFOpedia??
BTW I seriously hope that a complete research tree will not be available before new research possibilities appear.
Of course, that is out of a question. As far as I know we have unique and great storyline. Spoiling it by showing whole research tree like in Civilization would kill the pleasure.
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But users already - not considering the research menu - can see the pictures before researching - in mail client/UFOpedia, per proposal view, so it is not an argument.
Blywulf and I are arguing that players shouldn't be able to see the pictures before researching. I like the 'question mark' solution put forth by Wanderer, or maybe even create unique pre-research images if possible. Using the post-research image in a proposal doesn't make sense to me logically or design-wise.
These images have one main purpose: they are supposed to represent research topic in visual form. I definitely disagree about that they should be taken as "reward" - what is it supposed to be? Giving a cookie to users using UFOpedia??
They are supposed to represent the finished research topic. Not the proposal. That is the basis from which I've been operating, and it's the only one I think is sensible. I had no idea you guys were planning to use the art like this, and I'm very much against this implementation. It's like giving the player a book with the ending drawn in detail on the cover.
Regards,
Winter
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They are supposed to represent the finished research topic. Not the proposal.
Then why they are being used with research proposals in UFOpedia/email client for ages? I am sure you saw this in both 2.1.0 and 2.1.1 (laser tech).
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Then why they are being used with research proposals in UFOpedia/email client for ages? I am sure you saw this in both 2.1.0 and 2.1.1 (laser tech).
Don't ask me why they've been used like that, nobody ever talked to me about it. I never noticed before because I don't get the chance to actually play the game very much, and I don't usually bother with lasers as I prefer Bolters and plasma. Also, we never had UFOpaedia images before.
Regards,
Winter
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I never noticed before because I don't get the chance to actually play the game very much
You are sooo funny :D
Fine. My suggestion for you now: go play current trunk version of the game. Notice ALL the things implemented there. Prepare a list what should be removed.
Till that happens I won't do single piece of code because I don't like to waste my time doing things which are to be removed because "you did not notice before" something.
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You are sooo funny :D
Fine. My suggestion for you now: go play current trunk version of the game. Notice ALL the things implemented there. Prepare a list what should be removed.
Till that happens I won't do single piece of code because I don't like to waste my time doing things which are to be removed because "you did not notice before" something.
I don't want anything to be removed. I'm just thinking that we won't be getting individual pre-research images anytime soon, and the brilliant stuff that Blywulf is doing really needs to be restricted for post-research UFOpaedia articles. You can't show an autopsy image before the autopsy actually happens.
You're right in saying that I should've stayed on top of things better, and I accept full responsibility. The only thing I can say in my defence is that I've had a trying couple of months and haven't been able to work on or play UFO:AI as much as I'd like except in an admin capacity. I'll try and get involved again more, although it may be difficult as I'll be working more 12-hour days for the next couple of weeks.
On the bright side, though, I'll be getting a machine of my own again next week and will be able to reinstall the game.
I think the question-mark idea is actually a good one (at least for a placeholder) as it evokes/maintains a sense of mystery. I'd also like to propose having one or more team meetings to improve communications. I could do with some getting up to speed, especially as I haven't been able to attend IRC much lately.
Regards,
Winter
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All right, time to kiss and make up again. This is turning into a row, and it's not helping.
On topic, I'm perfectly happy with pre-research images that aren't the same as the post-research ones Blywulf is doing now. My main concern is making the research screen more interesting and involved. Using the post-research images is a cheap way to do it (in terms of labor), but I admit it's not the best solution.
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Blywulf, your work rocks and I agree with you completely that research results, including images, shouldn't be unveiled until the research has been completed. I like the idea of a general research proposal image, a little more involved than a question mark. Like some researchers busy at work -- the early laser research comes to mind, though a bit more generic. Some guys hunched over an experiment. Someone with your skills could even produce a template with the lab in layers and place a more appropriate item on the bench for different types of research, and finally specific research proposal images could be developed for key plot points and such... time permitting of course. Thanks for setting the bar so high on this artwork.
Winter and Zen, I caught your dialog on the chat. I know you guys will sleep it off and find some common ground again tomorrow. I can tell you are both really invested in this effort and have been able to collaborate effectively for a long time. Design direction changes, work gets abandoned, things are overlooked... I'm sure it's not personal. I'm not sure if there is a a spec channel I'm missing, but from what I can tell looking through my keyhole is that this is more feature "addition" than "redefinition" anyway. If a new resource like a kick ass artist appears out of the clear blue, there may be some resultant ripples in the water to take advantage.
Now, back to work.
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On topic, I'm perfectly happy with pre-research images that aren't the same as the post-research ones Blywulf is doing now. My main concern is making the research screen more interesting and involved.
I'm not entirely sure there's a way to make a research list screen... involved. If anything, I'd like it simplified. Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one. Let me see estimated MAN-hours for completion. Let that get closer to the truth as they work through the research. Then lemme get out of there.
The only time I typically head into the research screen is one of two reasons. 1) Research completes and I've got bored scientists who I need to decide where they go next. 2) A mission is about to launch and I want to see how long it'll be before I can use (X) weapon that there's 20 of in my storage facility and noone can find the trigger on. Just in case I want to wait a few hours and let my guys equip up. Oh, and on rare occassions, 3) I don't remember where something's in the UFOpaedia and I want to shortcut there.
So, I think if you simplify the console to make #1 and #2 simple and easy to do, the rest should take care of itself. It should be fast and quick to use without excess on replay, and easily accesses the UFOpaedia.orgrmation for first timers.
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If anything, I'd like it simplified. Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one. Let me see estimated MAN-hours for completion. Let that get closer to the truth as they work through the research. Then lemme get out of there.
The only time I typically head into the research screen is one of two reasons. 1) Research completes and I've got bored scientists who I need to decide where they go next. 2) A mission is about to launch and I want to see how long it'll be before I can use (X) weapon that there's 20 of in my storage facility and noone can find the trigger on. Just in case I want to wait a few hours and let my guys equip up. Oh, and on rare occassions, 3) I don't remember where something's in the UFOpaedia and I want to shortcut there.
It's a little different for me. When I'm in the research screen, I usually don't assign free scientists just like that, assuming there's more than one research item available. I usually spend some time judging which topic I need most at the moment, cycling through them all and checking their descriptions. A little image to the side would add a lot to my experience.
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Regarding the look of the research screen.
I'm not entirely sure there's a way to make a research list screen... involved. If anything, I'd like it simplified. Show me percentage completed when I've got multiple projects going without clicking on each one
I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.
Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.
(I think Zen and Winter should be forced to stand outside the headmasters office until they shake hands.)
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I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.
Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.
Bloody hell. That kind of interface would make me scream, shut down the game and flee in terror. It's about as opaque and confusing as you can get. It overloads new players with useless information and presents it in an extremely confusing manner. I don't think it's a very good piece of interface design.
What we need for an interface change, all over the game, is something simpler that makes better use of the screen space, rather than wasting most of it on the huge grey frames we've got now. Something more elegant. Unfortunately it's a long way away from being implemented, unless we get a new coder who's willing to go the distance.
Regards,
Winter
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I think we have several coders who are working very hard. And I can see that you have worked very hard too.
come on - think *conciliatory tone*.
BTW - I agree about space the frames take up.
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I think the ideal research screen, would look, erm, technical, but actually be quite a simple interface.
Someone (on IRC, I think) cited this
http://www.optisch-edel.de/fo/screenshots/research.jpg
as a good example.
Bloody hell. That kind of interface would make me scream, shut down the game and flee in terror. It's about as opaque and confusing as you can get. It overloads new players with useless information and presents it in an extremely confusing manner. I don't think it's a very good piece of interface design.
You should try it before (http://www.freeorion.org/), because it might seem confusing, but it doesn't in reality ! I have use it, and I really think it's a great interface.
And the research queue is a blessing :)
I will try to find a better screenshot, more representative...
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I think we have several coders who are working very hard. And I can see that you have worked very hard too.
come on - think *conciliatory tone*.
BTW - I agree about space the frames take up.
Eh? I wasn't implying anything bad about our coders, and I have always held them in the highest regard. I was just saying that they're really busy with all the stuff they're doing (like the awesome stuff being implemented for air battles and 3d geoscape), so things like interface changes aren't going to get bumped up their priority queue when they're dealing with more important features.
Regards,
Winter
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It's a little different for me. When I'm in the research screen, I usually don't assign free scientists just like that, assuming there's more than one research item available. I usually spend some time judging which topic I need most at the moment, cycling through them all and checking their descriptions. A little image to the side would add a lot to my experience.
The only time I'd be interested in more then a name, completion rate, and # scientists allotted would be the first time something came up on my research list... and then I'd visit the UFOpaedia.
I'm thinking more in replay value and ease of interface use with familiarity then first timers who need to go in and look at each and every article to get familiar with the concepts. The first time through people are going to want to learn a lot (hopefully)... so they'll be in the UFOPaedia anyway. After that... who cares, really? Storyline, storyline, storyline, oh, there's the storyline one that attacks the UN, hold off on that one... so on...
And sure, a picture might be nice, but I agree with Winter and Bly on that... it would need to be a different image then the 'result' picture. Just doesn't make sense.
First time play and goodies makes a game interesting to a new user. Replayability keeps a game alive. A balance here should be struck.
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Just to put my 2c in here as well ... :)
1.) The image used for the laser tech was a test I made quite a while back and was never intended to stay like that. I'm sure anything Blywulf comes up with looks better than the current one 8)
2.) I agree with everybody who says that the image of the finished research should NOT be displayed before research is finished. It just does not make sense in most cases (there are exceptions to everything) so see something you don't know about yet (crystal ball anyone?). So I think we can solve this in 2 ways:
* Display no images at all and/or use a dummy "Unknown Tech" image.
* Create custom pre-research images.
EDIT: Forgot to mention an idea on the "thumbnail" problem ... If aspect ratio is a problem we could still create custom cropped thumbnails out of any finished images (no matter what size the full thing is). Just think how the various web-galleries handle it - just with bigger thumbnails. This would also help in adding custom "frames" and stuff in the process if needed.
Werner
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I like the idea of a general research proposal image, a little more involved than a question mark.
Sounds cool. I thought of a similar thing myself. I could come up with a pre-research image showing a lab and scientists at work.
The only thing that I need atm is some reliable info on the size of the UFOpaedia images and their exact on-screen placement (like: image 120x120 pixels, located in the center of the bracket in the right lower corner of the email window). Also, it's important for me to know what sort of background is the image going to be displayed on.
I realize that it depends heavily on the current user interface which, IMO could use some improvement. If it was up to me I'd redesign the whole thing - the layout, the artwork etc. (actually I think that's where we should start. If there is a chance for a change of the UI of course. Yeah, I'm aware of the fact that it would create extra work for the coders and that it's not a priority).
BTW Is there an easy way to change the artwork of the tactical UI (using all the current nodes and stuff)? I'd like to give it a shot.
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I like the idea of a general research proposal image, a little more involved than a question mark.
Yeah, a question mark would be nothing more than a placeholder for something more involved.
Sounds cool. I thought of a similar thing myself. I could come up with a pre-research image showing a lab and scientists at work.
That sounds good to me -- something simple that gets the point right across. Maybe just one or two scientists in a really advanced-looking lab environment.
The only thing that I need atm is some reliable info on the size of the UFOpaedia images and their exact on-screen placement (like: image 120x120 pixels, located in the center of the bracket in the right lower corner of the email window). Also, it's important for me to know what sort of background is the image going to be displayed on.
Apart from the background colour, where I have no idea how it'll end up, there should be absolutely no problem with image size if your works are perfectly square, pixel for pixel. Any size source should scale well regardless of what size it ends up.
Regards,
Winter