UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: Redux on August 06, 2008, 05:35:56 pm
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Hi!
I'm wondering if you're going to expand the base layout and let the user control the design of the base more?
In UFO the base layout was 6x6 rooms and only(?) the hangars were 2x2 sized. One of the things I really liked with UFO were the base-building, i.e. designing a base that was so defendable as possible. But then you need space to do it.
I guess you are (in the future) going to have alien attacks on the bases and then it would be nice to fully be able to control the placements of the entrance, command centre, build corridors, choke-points and so on. And also build defence stations, guard rooms etc. (also removing or moving base facilities as the base expands and changes).
My suggestion would be to expand the base size to 10x10 tiles and 2-3 floors. The engine can handle it, since some maps are built like that (the Bunker for instance).
It's fun to build bases! And imagine how fun it would be to defend your own tailored base against a horde of aliens attacking it! ;D Let them come...
/Redux
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See http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Proposals/Larger_Bases
Also, I tried a full 6x6 grid, and the game can't handle it (crashes). The bunker map isn't a random map assembly, and it's nowhere close to 10x10 (it's more like 3x4 in terms of base facilities).
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The base units do seem a little arbitrary with regards to what is open and what isn't. The small UFO hangers especially - do they really need 3 open doors at ground level? One massive roof opening would seem more sensible. Other buildings have doors at ground level that are closed, it seems odd that the UFO hangers would have 3 doors left open when under attack.
The workshop doesn't need its own door, either, as anything coming in and out can go through the designated base entrance. What else is the designated entrance for, after all?
Similarly, from the way it is described there is actually no reason at all for the radar to have an above ground opening.
Aliens should be able to effect entry through:
Entrance (duh!)
Missile Silos
All 4 hangers.
These are the only facilities IIRC that actually need independent access to the surface.
HOWEVER:
Only the entrance hall really needs ground level doors.
Alien entrance to the others should only be through breaking through the hatches in the roof and dropping down into the base.
After all, why even bother with a special entrance stair-well if so many other parts of the compound have doors you can just waltz through at ground level?
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It does seem to me that the existing base map tiles were a bit shallow; no more than a few feet under the surface. I don't know much about bunker construction, but it seems that facing such powerful enemy weapons, some extra dirt couldn't hurt...
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Well, if the new proposal does come trough (having base levels), I'd say it's a improvement. But since that will give you more space, methinks it would be cool to add another small base structure - defense post. A highly defensable position with automated defenses.
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we have that already - that are the installations (ufo yard, defense and so on)
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No, not SAM, but security post for tactical base defence, as in XCom-3
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Frankly, a defensive position ought to be included automatically as part of the entrance.
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Frankly, a defensive position ought to be included automatically as part of the entrance.
All too true, no military type installation with "anything" worth guarding, would leave the entrance to such a facility unmanned and unguarded. In the scenario of AI, it would be even more "unlikely" that any installation's entrance way would be left unguarded. Most likely a small garrison and some "heavy" weapons of some sort would be in place 24/7 to keep any would be intruders from invading the base.
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I would think it would also make sense to have forces outside and above ground that patrol and defend the base. Wouldn't it make sense to have a base defense mission have two parts - one that is above ground outside with a landed UFO, and a second that is the interior of the base if the aliens get that far?
After all, in various versions of X-COM/UFO and the inspired re-makes, some alien base assault missions have two parts, one that is outside where the goal is to get to the entrance and get inside, and the second map where everything takes place inside.
I don't claim to be an expert, but with regards to military installations, even ones that don't disclose what they do there, as far as I know many have fences, walls, etc., outside, or at least some kind of exterior defenses and agents, officers, or soldiers, etc. that patrol the area and control and monitor anything that approaches the place. Heck, even special places in urban areas have armed security and special police forces that patrol.
I actually have a little bit of experience going to such places and know a few things about this, partly from my last job, and I can't elaborate on too many details but I'll say that I don't know of any such installations or real-life bases where you aren't normally detected , watched, and have to pass through a good deal of checkpoints and outer patrols before you even get close to the place, and then pass through more security getting inside.
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That's out of the question. One of the biggest objections to larger bases (by mattn) was that base missions already take too long. With the expansion as written up we've pretty much stretched the mission length to the limit.
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If anything, I'd like to see the above ground area shrunk entirely, with just about enough room for the facilities that require surface access plus a landed UFO. This, combined with sensible base-building to provide defensible chokepoints, would make base defence missions quite short.
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The point of base assaults is that aliens have a considerable chance of damaging your facilities or vehicles. Base defence missions aren't about the player easily holding down the fort. By that token, I wouldn't assume the missions would be short if I were you.
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While I disagree with the notion that base defenses should be short and easy, I'm definitely of the opinion that strategic base construction should play a signifigant role. Further, I also agree that designated chokepoint/security facilities should exist (including one integrated into the main entrance itself). Though these might afford signifigant advantages, chances are a fight against a landed alien dreadnought, where you're substantially outnumbered and outgunned, will still prove challenging.
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Just a quick opinion here, but if the aliens have breached the base proper, most static defenses at the entrance(s) are already trashed. Some light, trap-like emplacements scattered around might be nice, but as for anything significant to soften/hold aliens at the entrance... maybe holding back the aliens for a round or two, or at least occupying their attention, but not so significant that they would still be all or mostly intact by the time the PHALANX defenders arrive to back them up.
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....by the time the PHALANX defenders arrive to back them up.
Heh - that assumes the base defence teams are managed by a latter day Sir Francis Drake.
"The alien armada is on radar, and heading this way? Well, lets at least finish this game of bowls before we go rushing of to man the defences, eh?"
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Well, if we look at this from a gameplay standpoint, having all your troops congregated at the entryways the moment the aliens arrive takes much of the fun and challenge out of it. Now, if only some of your troops are in position and the rest are scattered, or the invading alien force greatly outnumbers the defenders, there is more potential for pitch in the battle; of course, balancing this is another issue.
The advantage I can see of having a two-part battle, one above and one below, helps justify this a bit. The top battle pits the player's current shift (the dropship junkies, for instance) and the Entrance defenses against the brunt of the invading force, with the option to withdraw troops from the "down" location when things turn sour. If the player manages to win, then the base invasion ends there. If the player loses or withdraws, the battle continues in the lower sector.
The lower section allows the player to replace his dead and wounded defenders from any other troops in the base. The next battle involves defending the remainder of the base with the second group. Perhaps the aliens could have their spawn delayed until the player takes his first turn. Should the player lose, the base is overrun, the remaining personnel are killed (or captured, if there is any game mechanic for which this would matter), etc. Winning the second phase keeps the base alive, but the upper section could be razed, with the facilities requiring time, money, and possibly worker time to repair. Ships may be damaged/destroyed as well, etc...
The idea here is that the first battle will be incredibly difficult to win, and the player must decide whether he can hold out another turn, or if he has to withdraw to cut his personnel losses (in the hopes he can turn it around in the second battle).
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That's out of the question. One of the biggest objections to larger bases (by mattn) was that base missions already take too long. With the expansion as written up we've pretty much stretched the mission length to the limit.
I agree. Not everything has to be simulated to the tiniest detail.
Just ASSUME you had some patrols on the surface, but the aliens punched trough.
You can even go as far as to have some aliens enter the base wounded, or a out-of-your-control soldier enter the base some time after the aliens, in persuit.
The point of base assaults is that aliens have a considerable chance of damaging your facilities or vehicles. Base defence missions aren't about the player easily holding down the fort. By that token, I wouldn't assume the missions would be short if I were you.
There's a way around this. Make the base defensible, but make the alien attack strong. Let them attack from 2-3 sides at the same time, in large numbers.
Heck, it's your base - let the battle be EPIC.
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Certainly, that's what I think it should be like. People complain about there being too many entry points in basce facilities (and they are right up to a point too), but I do think there should not be one bottleneck the player can defend a la 300. That doesn't mean the player should be completely without any advantages (this IS a PHALANX base), so any such advantages would be offset by a sizeable invading force.
Of course there may be limitations like maximum number of actors or performance of the AI, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
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Yes, a two part scenario is a clear and obvious no-no. As long as the entrances are limited, make sense, and are defendable (as well they should be), and there is some sort of designated security/chokepoint base facility
Well, if we look at this from a gameplay standpoint, having all your troops congregated at the entryways the moment the aliens arrive takes much of the fun and challenge out of it. Now, if only some of your troops are in position and the rest are scattered, or the invading alien force greatly outnumbers the defenders, there is more potential for pitch in the battle; of course, balancing this is another issue.
The last option is definitely the best and most plausible. Players should be able to designate the spawn/starting points of their soldier in a base defense.
but I do think there should not be one bottleneck the player can defend a la 300.
With proper base construction, players can achieve this sort of scenario anyways; simply isolate all facilities with access points from your base with a non-critical facility, such as a living quarters. Further, with optimal base design (defensively speaking) they can make their base one continuous ongoing chokepoint via a snaking layout, with each facility connecting to up to two others.
Of course there may be limitations like maximum number of actors or performance of the AI, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
A possible fix assuming this is an issue, might be to institute a system of reinforcements, such that the aliens respawn constantly until all reinforcements are exhausted.
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Well, abandoning the two-stage idea, a lot is going to ride on the security station's layout. It will have to be plausible as a functional chokepoint, but without restricting alien movement to the point that they cannot overrun an undefended station without significant losses. A player could well place two concurrent stations, possibly even three, and the question here is whether a late-game base with only rookie defenders but a short stack of security stations should be able to easily hold off even a massive alien invasion.
Perhaps there could also be a mechanic of "soft spots" within base structures which, when destroyed by aliens, render the facility damaged, requiring downtime and repair funds, after the resolution of the battle (assuming the player wins). I don't think going so far as to destroy craft caught in hangars would be fair to the player, but perhaps at least penalizing them with downtime or other negative effects.
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Um, we're not going to have a dedicated security facility. That decision is pretty solid. We are, however, considering optional weapon emplacements you can add to existing facilities, but a concern is that they might be too powerful. Remember, aliens are supposed to WIN, unless the player defends his base actively. We don't want passive defenses stopping the invasion in its tracks.
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Ah, I am much more fond of that idea. I would assume they would be placed between facilities. I'm going to offer some suggestions; most of this stuff has been talked over already, but I like to flesh proposals out, so excuse my babbling...
- Security Camera - Inexpensive, but requires Command Center. Same team as player, so player sees what they see. Aliens may often ignore these.
- Motion Sensor - Requires Command Center. Unnoticeable, alerts when it detects alien movement, but cannot pinpoint where or what the alien is.
- Blast Door - Moderate cost Requires Command Center. Each can be closed or opened once per player round. Aliens must destroy these to continue.
- Security Point - Expensive, and requires Command Center. Contains light auto-turrets and separate cameras. The turrets are likely receded into the walls, making them highly resilient until they start firing. Once they open to engage a target (reaction fire only, they are fairly easily eliminated.
- Explosive Trap - Powerful, inexpensive one-shot, does not require command center. Basically a pair of proximity mines, but less noticeable, and not triggered by your own troops. Can still be set off by gunfire or nearby explosions.
Destroyed systems would need to be replaced. Most would likely be purchasable, but some may only be producible (I'm thinking Security Points with advanced-tech weapons). Late game may feature higher-durability Security Points, due to alien armor research, but at the start they should be unlikely to be able to take more than a hit or two. I'm thinking one on each side of the connecting hallways, so both won't even necessarily activate at the same time, giving aliens a chance to lob a grenade or something that could take out the reacting turret and damage the un-deployed one. Everything else is mostly early warning; the Trap would be effective against any early-game invasions, or for keeping aliens out of more sensitive areas (if you're slow to set up a chokepoint). I like the idea of being able to place blast doors in some areas (such as around hangars) while leaving other avenues merely mined (such as the Entrance route) to separate the groups a bit more, to section them in roughly even waves.
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Um, we're not going to have a dedicated security facility. That decision is pretty solid. We are, however, considering optional weapon emplacements you can add to existing facilities, but a concern is that they might be too powerful. Remember, aliens are supposed to WIN, unless the player defends his base actively. We don't want passive defenses stopping the invasion in its tracks.
Why not? If the base is exapnded to 2 levels you'll gonna have quite a bit more room. A single tile defensive tile doesn't sound like a stretch.
Hm..it does bring the problem of designing one.
Regardless, if you can place some extra defenses - like the automated turrets in Alien :)
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Why not? If the base is exapnded to 2 levels you'll gonna have quite a bit more room. A single tile defensive tile doesn't sound like a stretch.
Hm..it does bring the problem of designing one.
I don't understand the reasoning for its exclusion either, even omitting the possibility of additional levels. Thus far I see two possible criticisms:
A: Base space is too limited for devoted security facilities.
B: Too many facilities would make a base virtually impenetrable.
In response to A, if the facility is properly designed and balanced, it'll be certainly worthy of consideration, having an established and practical use.
In response to B, again, it's a matter of balancing. Further, while you might be able to make a long string of security facilities, that results in a great deal of dead weight, in so far as your space utilization is concerned; all your heavy fortification would come at a high cost.
In all I do agree that base defenses should require active management to win, at least when it comes to assaults by larger UFOs (smaller incursions can and should be winnable by automated defenses).
I also like Soph's recommendations.
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Making a whole facility with nothing in it but tactical defences is a waste of space and developing time, neither very realistic nor very effective in battles. This is a whole 1x1 tile that you guys would have devoted to it, which is pretty massive in tactical space. We have a better option than that and we're taking it.
Placeable defences at choke points will do the job much more elegantly and we already have some models for them as well. And you'll still be able to obsessively place every facility just so for defence value, so that's that.
Regards,
Winter
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I'd really like to see the base models includ no open doors anywhere - its a secure facility, right?
But on generating the map, 1, 2 or 3 areas with a surface opening (depending on the size of the invasion) are replaced with a damaged model where the doors have been blasted open and the aliens are starting inside.
So, no doors at ground level at all in the hangers, for example, but if thats the area chosen for the alien starting point the model is replaced with one in which the vulnerable hanger doors have been blown to shite and the alien shock troops are inside already.
Entry points would then be any of the hangers, the missile bays, the main entrance and (possibly, though the current design seems odd to me) the workshop.
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It would make checkpoints less valuable - sure, you can put all your surface stuff on one side of the checkpoint, but unless you actively go hunt the aliens they'll have free range to destroy everything on that side - all your hangers and missile bays. Even if they are subsequently unable to break through the checkpoint, they have made your base much easier to reach for the next wave, who can enter at no risk of being shot down en route...
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Of course, this is easy to blithely trot out but it is additional work for the modelling team, and as I've said before, I am unable to contribute.
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Making a whole facility with nothing in it but tactical defences is a waste of space and developing time, neither very realistic nor very effective in battles. This is a whole 1x1 tile that you guys would have devoted to it, which is pretty massive in tactical space. We have a better option than that and we're taking it.
Placeable defences at choke points will do the job much more elegantly and we already have some models for them as well. And you'll still be able to obsessively place every facility just so for defence value, so that's that.
Regards,
Winter
Well, you're probably right there.. a single tile is rather big in tactical.
So what placable defenses have you planned?
Are they carried and deployed by soldiers in battle (think turrets from Alien) or placed during base bulilding or placed before the battle?
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The point of base assaults is that aliens have a considerable chance of damaging your facilities or vehicles. Base defence missions aren't about the player easily holding down the fort. By that token, I wouldn't assume the missions would be short if I were you.
Having just run another tedious base defence, I'd like to revisit this point.
Base defence currently takes to long.
The reason it takes too long is purely because you generally spend the last 10 minutes (or more) very carefully moving through the base, eventually discovering that the last alien is bumbling about amongst the no-access buildings on the surface, on the opposite side of the map.
If base defence took a long time because of the succesive waves of aggressive aliens trying to rush my defences, then " a very long time" would not be "too long".
But when, during that "very long time" nothing exciting happens, as you cautiously inch your way through your base and then out accross the surface, looking for that one last alien who is making no attempt at all to invade your facility - well, that "very logn time" becomes "too long."
Players should not be tempted to press "auto mission" because conducting the defence otherwise is a dull, painstaking activity.
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Frankly, I see nothing wrong with having you squad near the entrance when the mission starts.
Hech, it's an alien INVASION. Just keep spawning in lots of aliens as some get killed.
It's supposed to look like an invasion. The wave of enemies should push you out of your initial defensive positions, forcing you to back up. You should be fighting nail and tooth to hold on to you base, even with all the defensive turrets ane positions.
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It makes absolute sense to determine your soldier's spawn points (or at least the facility they spawn in) prior to the mission.
On devoted base defense facilities, from a position of experience it certainly would be effective as a partition and choke, and this is doubly true in the event of good base design. Their size does not change this, though yes, it would occupy valuable space that could be used for other facilities (an inherant tradeoff of the fortification though).
Not realistic? Well, given the commonality of alien ground incursions into PHALANX bases (to say nothing of the dubious realism of those attacks themselves), as well as the intensity of those incursions, I'd argue otherwise given the context, and at the very least, they are no less realistic than the completely unfortified entry points which currently exist. Assuming these entry points are later fortified by default, and made to feature more tactically sound and defensive layouts, then yes, I could agree that the security stations may no longer serve a viable purpose as a secure, devoted buffer to the rest of the base, that purpose and role already being solidly occupied. Sentry guns scattered throughout the base at module/facility entrances aren't quite the same thing, and would be signifigantly less effective by comparison (though I do like the idea, as a suppliment to a primary defensive line/choke).
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Having just run another tedious base defence, I'd like to revisit this point.
Base defence currently takes to long.
The reason it takes too long is purely because you generally spend the last 10 minutes (or more) very carefully moving through the base, eventually discovering that the last alien is bumbling about amongst the no-access buildings on the surface, on the opposite side of the map.
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Players should not be tempted to press "auto mission" because conducting the defence otherwise is a dull, painstaking activity.
One advantage I think Apocalypse had in this regard was the option to withdraw individual troopers from the battlefield, and especially the AI's ability to do so. I don't think I need to go into detail about the mechanic, save to say that if the aliens had the option to flee the map, and would attempt to do so when nearly wiped out, might save the player some considerable aggravation when they have practically won the mission anyways.
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I have nothing against invading aliens, but what I would like to see - aside from being able to dig deeper into the ground, for a lot of money, to expand the base, would be to upgrade individual components of the base.
This way a player could decide where to "burn" his money, whether he wants to have gun-turrets or similar in order to better defend against aliens.
On a related note, I think it could be interesting for the aliens to disable the command centre and cause chaos this way - i guess communication
could be hampered there. Well... I just have a flashback of the alien movies, especially the one where the aliens chased the prisoners... :-)
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Defensive facilities make a lot of sense. Making it easier to defend a base is lame, but adding challenge by not placing any defenses at all, doesn't seem fair. Some challenge would come by choosing between placing defensive areas on the bases, decreasing building area and forcing to build more bases, more logistics, more troops deployed and equipped, management and stuff, or whatever, "bunkers are gay": defend when it messes up... player's choice. If they can find the base (they will, i suppose). Players can roleplay or play for fun, choices. There's always that time when we feel like killing shit, not being killed by it.
Maybe much like D Day.
That's what makes Apocalypse so EPIC: in the end, aliens just get WTFSMDPWNED. Guess that now i have 2 favorite games heh ;D
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I think a Base-Attack should be in 2 steps.
1) The UFO attacks/bombards the Base from the air. This would still be on the Global Screen, with the ufo circling around the base.
If you have no SAM-sites or other base defense, such as Interceptors, the UFO will blast open several entrance points.
The longer you wait, the more openings are being blasted - giving the aliens multiple entrance points.
2) As soon as there are one or more openings (depending on ???), the UFO will land their troops and... wait or retreat(?).
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I defer to the developers. I'd like to say that explosive traps aren't a good idea: machines tend to malfunction, and I wouldn't want to live in a base with explosive traps that could go off by accident. If these can be applied safely, and according to well-tested, existing models, then I'd say it's consistent with the game.
Automated defences were great in XCOM 3, but aren't consistent with the UFO:AI universe, as far as I know. Some automated defences are possible, but nothing that would make having good agents in a base necessary to defend the base.
Defensible points are very believable: some kind of bunker or such emplacement to enable the player to assert a defensive advantage. We know they're going to raid our bases sooner or later; we should be able to prepare in some way. Certainly, we ought to be able to achieve some level of chokepoint defence by means of careful base design. I believe this is possible, and may be augmented by a defensive position to be occupied by agents. I'd like to be able to create two such points: 1 primary, and 1 for fall-back. Nothing super-mated, nothing that means you can have otherwise un-protected bases. I've always been a stickler for a backup defensive position.
I'm sure the developers are doing better than I can suggest. I know I'm wary of having too many entrances, and I'm not sure how many doors a super-secret installation would have, but I don't know what the developers have in mind, so I'll wait and see. I think the purpose is to strike a balance between terror, and the potential for good planning, experienced agents, the best equipment available, and excellent tactical discipline to counter-act that terror.
Terror - that's what the XCOM and UFO:AI genre is about. The terror that the aliens will conduct terror attacks at night. They will kill civilians every chance they get. They'll kill your agents every chance they get. And they'll raid your base and kill your agents in their beds if they get half a chance. The point is, that PHALANX fights that terror.