UFO:Alien Invasion
General => Discussion => Topic started by: QkiZ on January 21, 2010, 09:33:14 pm
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I'm playing from today in developer version (2.3). I have a hospital, but I can not employ medical staff, although I have a place in Living Quarters. How can I hire them?
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They don't exist any more. :) Hospitals work without them now,
Andy
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Meh... Well I liked the idea of medics. Ill miss that feature.
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Meh... Well I liked the idea of medics. Ill miss that feature.
Why, now you don't have to wast time hiring them or spend money on their wages.
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With medics you could adjust the speed at which you want your soldiers to recover.
Now it only depends on number of hospitals (or does it even?) what is a much less flexible adjustment.
Besides managing base personnel is also fun. I wouldnt even mind there being pilots as a separate personnel class.
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pilots are seperate workers, hireable. It makes sense. A hospital requires roughly the same amount of people, regardless of how many wounded. Pilots is dependant on how many craft you have
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A hospital requires roughly the same amount of people, regardless of how many wounded.
Sorry but I disagree.
The way I imagine medics at Phalanx, theyd be worlds best doctors - specialists in at least a few fields of medicine.
Of course the more of them, the more attention they can give to their patients, but I think that even a few would be able to provide sufficient medical care at a base.
Its odd to have a hospital with 10 medics watching over a base with 8 soldiers. It does make more sense if there are e.g. 30 soldiers though.
I think that the number of needed medics does depend on the number of troops at base.
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Sorry but I disagree.
The way I imagine medics at Phalanx, theyd be worlds best doctors - specialists in at least a few fields of medicine.
Of course the more of them, the more attention they can give to their patients, but I think that even a few would be able to provide sufficient medical care at a base.
Its odd to have a hospital with 10 medics watching over a base with 8 soldiers. It does make more sense if there are e.g. 30 soldiers though.
I think that the number of needed medics does depend on the number of troops at base.
Well if you have a much larger base with more soldiers, you just build an additional hospital.
At some point in the future (not implemented yet) there will be implants and such which will also be done in the hospital, and adding bionic implants and such I'd imagine would cost money, part of which would be for the medical staff to perform the surgery.
It isn't a good idea to add management for every bit of miscellaneous or less-important personnel, too much required micromanagement would really slow down the game and make things tedious. Part of the monthly maintenance costs go into general staff I'm sure - It takes a good team of people to maintain and prepare the aircraft in the hangers, and all the other stuff to run everything in all the buildings.
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I agree with most of your arguments guys, but still, I also stick to what I said.
Simply, I liked the idea of medics. I dont think it was too much management to hire them, while it was a usefull adjustment.
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The reasoning is as follows. Medics didn't do anything but empower the hospital. Unlike researchers and scientists, they could only be assigned one task - healing soldiers - and that assignment was automatic. As such, whenever you built a hospital you *always* had to hire a full complement of medics. There was absolutely no reason do do anything else. The bottom line is, medics weren't a game element. They were just extra work.
In fact, one could argue that the same goes for the hospital facility itself. Not building one means soldiers won't recover (at least not as quickly), so any base that has soldiers must also have a hospital. However, since it is felt the hospital is a sensible facility to have (one expects it to be there), we decided to leave it. The team room, on the other hand, was scrapped for exactly that reason: it was a static bonus that didn't add anything to the game.
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Doesnt the same apply to Technicians and workshops?
Unless Im doing something wrong, I didnt see anywhere the option to assign them work.
You just need to have workshop and technicians and the number only gives you bonus.
The only difference with Scientists is that you can assign specific number of them for a task. Besides that its also the same.
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Yes, you can assign scientists and workers to multiple projects if you so choose. That's the main difference.
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Yes, you can assign scientists and workers to multiple projects if you so choose. That's the main difference.
Aaand that flexibility is the reason why those 2 categories were in the original Xcom too ;)
I agree that Medics are kinda redundants, because a hospital wing is usually fully staffed, the patient will heal itself and that takes time, no matter how much doctors are involved.
Research or engineering projects, on the other hand, have so many tasks to do that having more people to help can speed up the process.
What I'd like to see is some variability in Scientists or Workers.
Perhaps they could have a small (like 5%) bonus in their expertise field, like biology, mathematics, particle physics, composite materials, system designs, weaponry... Some are better at repairing, others at making brand new stuff or pulling appart alien stuff...
Just my 2 cents ;)
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As already said, technicians and scientists can be assigned to seperate tasks. But at the moment biogenetic or cybergenetic bodyparts get implemented in this game, medics will be assigned to different tasks, too. Then you will have to decide, if a medic is to heal someone or integrate a cybernetic leg into a soilder.
I would feel right for me, if all medical reseach (starting with med kit and ending with the research of implants) would be done by medics, too. In real life medical research in this topic is done in hospitals, too. I wouldn't mind if authopsies were also done by medics.
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Come to think of it, the "Medics" could handle the biological, exobiology & Alien interraction sciences, while the "Engineers" could build basic stuff, disassemble alien technology and design/build hybrid advances.
I know it was a game abstraction in XCOM but it never really made sense to me that the same scientists could perform autopsy/ and design a starship. :-\
In fact, Biology & Engineering are two vastly different domains requiring a completely different career. Sometimes you can combine the two for new & unique applications, but that is done using mixed teams of specialists.
I know it might be far too late in the game to change that (and I'm cool with it if it remains as it is), but it would make sense to me if Biologists and Engineers were two different kinds of specialists that could work on different (or common) research/production projects.
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btw, biologists and nanotechnologists were separated in xcom-apoc.
can you imagine how much more exciting the game was because of it?
almost not at all, i would say.
but, i would have something different in mind.
there might be alien themed toys on the market like the vampire and spiderman costumes we have in real life.
and some kids would be wearing alien costumes and wielding cheap plastic imitations of heavy particle beam cannons.
you would find out when they shoot at you.
they would either say 'bang-bang! hahaha!' or else there would be a real particle beam.
in real life, next time i see someone who looks like a vampire, can i put a stake through his heart?
he looked like a vampire after all, i was trying to do the right thing.
if i had a good lawyer, maybe i could get away with it.
continuing the same logic, maybe we should replace medical staff with lawyers.
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If medics could do some serious alterations...like making Phalanx Space Marines...the aliens would be f*****.
That would be so awesomely cool.
PURGE THE XENOS!!!!!!
Ok, that would be way over hte top modifications. But some lesser ones and lesser implant. Certanly not cybog arm and stupid stuf like that.
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I like extra work. I view it as playing a more detailed game. I'd have liked to see an expanded role for medics, as said a few times. Let them boost research in various areas, perform autopsies, maybe change their names to Doctors to imply an expanded role. Maybe give them a reason to be on missions. Med packs are way too overpowered as they are now, and anyone can use them. How about medics be the ones who can really use them, or use them 3x as better or something like that? Just an idea.
If they're gone, ok, but to me it means the game is being dumbed down... harsh, yes, and I don't mean this is a "OMG HOW DARE YOU!" issue and I understand that it's an extremely minor detail they provide right now, but I just hate when I see a function in a game removed just because someone thinks it's too much work. Moving soldiers across a battlefield one space a time instead of just having them fight for themselves is "too much work" to some. Managing a base instead of just having it done automatically is "too much work" to some. The more the game does for me, the less I like it. The whole game can be thought of as work, and that's why I like games like xcom and UFO:AI, the realism of having to manage a full scale war.
So I'd prefer to see a feature expanded instead of deleted. Just my 2C.
btw, biologists and nanotechnologists were separated in xcom-apoc.
can you imagine how much more exciting the game was because of it?
almost not at all, i would say.
Well, I would fault that on execution, not concept.
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Dr. Gregory House: We're going to cure her.
Dr. Allison Cameron: We're going to cure death?
Dr. Gregory House: [voice like a mad scientist] Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!
[normal voice]
Dr. Gregory House: Doubt it.
I want house and his team as my medics
Think of all the fun house would have with the aliens and their tech
Intergating Aliens
House: Everybody lies
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Frankly, I don't see a lot of usefulness of tech implants.
External equipment can always do the same job.
Some minor genetic enhancement, maybe.
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Frankly, I don't see a lot of usefulness of tech implants.
External equipment can always do the same job.
Some minor genetic enhancement, maybe.
except, maybe, some eyes in the back of the head.
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except, maybe, some eyes in the back of the head.
I'm not sure if our brains could stand this kond of additional information. At least not if you're not born with these...
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I'm not sure if our brains could stand this kond of additional information. At least not if you're not born with these...
i have read about an experiment where third and fourth eye were included by quickly flipping images to the two eyes.
however, the purpose was to experiment if it would increase the sense of depth, rather than make someone be able to see behind his back.
i have got the impression that brain seems to be surprisingly flexible for all kinds of sensory stuff.
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It is, in the sense that it will adapt to new circumstances. The brain is essentially a pattern recognition machine, and if a pattern changes, it takes time before the new pattern is adapted.
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very interesting! Do you have a link or some search terms to point me there?
Anyway, pattern recognition is not the only point. If you could see something behind you, you'd need to change the way of reaction. E.g. it would be meaningless to turn your head, which would be a normal reaction now. And you would be unable to jump there or do any other countermeasures which you have if it happens in front of you.
I'd think it would be very confusing instead of helpful...
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Well, I know about an experiment, where people got googles that turn your vision upside down and had to wear them all day. After few days the brain began to adapt to the inverted vision and to invert the percept back to normal orientation. The change was so significant it took several hours to return to normal vision once the googles were gone.
Okay, turning your vision around is not putting two more eyes in your back, but it makes it reasonable, once one could find a way to connect the eyes nerves to the brain properly, the brain eventually would be able to adapt to the change.
PS: A link to one of the experiments description: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar97/858984531.Ns.r.html
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This subject is becoming funny to read.
I can see both how having Medics\Doctors can be extra work and I can also see how they can be great fun
I think that is would be like what some people have tried with X-com. If done right, they would be fun,
but if done wrong they would just bog down the game.
Everyone had hit good points. With the human body no matter how many doctors look at you. You are not going to get better any faster.
On the other hand a Scientist can do an autopsies but a biologist probably could do it faster mainly because they know organic parts better
than other fields of science.
Side thought:
Why can you put 70 scientist on an autopsy even if you have only one body.
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Side thought:
Why can you put 70 scientist on an autopsy even if you have only one body.
if you want to make research more tedious you should join me in the "number of scientists assigned to same research topic has diminishing returns in the sense of research speed" party.
the full name of the party is somewhat on the long side, for brevity it might be better to call it nosatsrthdritsorsp party instead.
so far the nosatsrthdritsorsp party has only one member, and even the one and only member has some doubts about the idea.
the point of the idea would be that you would get fastest total research if you spread your scientists equally over all research topics, but on the other hand you might want to research some high priority topic as fast as possible.
certainly assignment of scientists would then become a gameplay decision.
would that make the game more interesting or not, i have no idea.
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There is also the thing about assigning more people on a given project in a context like UFO: AI, it all depends on just how deeply any given area is researched.
Autopsies are more than just cutting open the corpse. With a completely alien life form, there are tons and tons of different things to do from the pathology side to the genetics, DNA isolation, analysis, comparison and contrast, mapping which organ does what and how and the analysis of any given bit of that can be handed over to a specialist in an appropriate field.
Same thing for UFO theory. I'd expect hundreds of people to be thrown at it, especially if there were enough wrecks to study.
For Alien Origins, hundreds and hundreds of people would not be out of place given what they are studying.
Obviously you do end up with diminishing returns eventually, but those numbers don't become too relevant in the timeframes involved here.
I at least have no problem with suspension of disbelief.
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that is true, but also, you have the total research hours a topic takes to research in the game.
and usually, that is not a hundred scientists researching for a hundred years.
and believe me, i can easily produce research ideas that can make the research side of the game insanely complicated and research topics intertwined, and research time somewhat random, and...
...and have multiple results from researching the same alien item interrelated with other researches.
but as far as my opinion goes, this is a tactical combat game rather than a research game.
so, diminishing returns on research would just give some meaning to number of scientists assigned to a specific topic, and make it a strategic decision.
otherwise, all scientists in a base should always be working on one topic only.
i mean, without diminishing returns, it should never make sense to assign scientists to multiple topics at the same time, unless you deliberately wanted to handicap yourself.
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I'm sure you could think up a thousand different ways of tinkering with the research system, but as you said, UFO:AI is a tactical combat game.
I find myself often assigning scientists to up to three projects simultaneously just to get a headstart on something while not needing the higher priority thing quite that urgently. Though I do like the idea of diminishing returns after a certain point.
If it could be implemented into the research system by adding an attribute to each research item like Diminishing returns (nbr of scientists) after which the effectiveness of each scientist beyond the limit diminishes by some fairly brutal formula. Naturally if you kept the number hidden, it would add an element of uncertainty (at least up until people go poke inside the code, but that's a different matter).
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i have thought about it in the past, and at some point i assumed that there are, say, 5 puzzles related to one research topic, that each researching scientist has an independent probability of solving (no collaboration), and did a little calculation.
if i remember correctly, the resulting formula was of the type
researchSpeed = numberOfScientists / (const + numberOfScientsis).
a fairly common formula in chemistry, physics, biology, etc.
i do not remember how i derived it from the probabilities, though.
say, if const=50, then
10 scientists at the same project would work at the efficiency of 8.5 scientists each on separate project,
50 would work liike 25.5
and 100 would work like 34.
[...]If it could be implemented into the research system by adding an attribute to each research item like Diminishing returns (nbr of scientists) after which the effectiveness of each scientist beyond the limit diminishes by some fairly brutal formula. Naturally if you kept the number hidden, it would add an element of uncertainty (at least up until people go poke inside the code[...]
i would not suggest to keep the number hidden, because then there would be privileged people who have read the spoilers.
i would rather suggest to display the resulting efficiency of the research as a number in the gui.
[...]I find myself often assigning scientists to up to three projects simultaneously just to get a headstart on something while not needing the higher priority thing quite that urgently.[...]
when you give it some thought, you might as well assign them all to same project and get to use the results of that project while you research the next project : )
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when you give it some thought, you might as well assign them all to same project and get to use the results of that project while you research the next project : )
That depends on what is being researched and how soon the other project will reap rewards. If the other project is something that will only open up something later when combined with other research, doing a shorter project on the side may get immediately useful results even as the long term goal is being pursued.