UFO:Alien Invasion

General => Tactics => Topic started by: Doctor J on March 22, 2008, 06:56:32 pm

Title: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 22, 2008, 06:56:32 pm

Q1: How many of you equip a squad with a Machine Gun?

Q2: Those of you who do, at what point do you consider it obsolete?  The Plasma Blaster puts out a high volume of fire on 'Burst', but 24 TUs means the gunner will never be able to move...

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Zorlen on March 22, 2008, 08:41:26 pm

I did have one machine-gunner :-) And I used MG till the end of the game - I just don't like using alien weaponry :)

I found MG good at providing reaction fire on medium to large distances. It may not be that accurate, but it shoots bursts in reaction, so one or two bullets can very well hit the target. Besides, consecutive shooting seem to scare aliens away (not sure however), so MG plays well the role of suppressive weapon, like in reality.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: shevegen on March 25, 2008, 01:50:14 am

I found it slightly better to have two guys with submachine guns instead of one with machine gun

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: knightsubzero on March 25, 2008, 05:11:02 am

its just friggin cool. ;D

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 25, 2008, 06:15:09 am

Quote from: shevegen on March 25, 2008, 01:50:14 am

I found it slightly better to have two guys with submachine guns instead of one with machine gun

Two SMGs do indeed put out a lot of lead.  However, the shorter range of the SMG seems like it would be a problem on some of the bigger, more open maps.  How does this work for you on the drug lords map?

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: mutant on March 25, 2008, 03:30:41 pm

Machineguns (and flamethrowers etc etc) should deal more morale damage for units that are in the firing arc of them. Though I'm not sure I like the way morale works right now.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Serrax on March 26, 2008, 05:19:46 pm

A1: I use one single machine gun as long as I have no heavy laser.

A2: As soon as I have 2 heavy lasers I abandon the machine gun in favour of 2 heavy lasers.

Ok, i confess, I like lasers (2.2.)  ;D  Maybe, one heavy laser and one machine gun would also make a good squad. 8)

cu

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: shevegen on March 26, 2008, 11:38:46 pm

Quote

However, the shorter range of the SMG seems like it would be a problem on some of the bigger, more open maps.  How does this work for you on the drug lords map?

Actually not good at all. The bigger maps are always a problem for me, mostly because there is not enough cover available :)
(If i have the nano-armour its not that bad but on a map like the one where you cross some river, the aliens kinda snipe me. The AI has a weakness though, the aliens tend to aggregate in one spot... if i manage to run to the building in the lower left side, i can normally move to any other place on the map without being under fire. For some reason you can happily wade through the water so you dont even have to cross the bridges at all, and there are a few spots where the aliens will never shoot at you but you are in a rather good position for a reaction fire, i.e. near the middle of the bridge a bit closer to boxes with cover)

The biggest problem actually is that some aliens are way too tough for the SMG... i think one has to use different weapons, but i am not completely happy with them either... IMHO, grenade launcher and flame throwser are pretty good weapons although they have limited ranged.

My hope is that the Machine gun could be improved a tiny bit. Maybe firing more shots, or having more firepower (I'd be happy if it is slower too)
Or could we maybe even have a huge machine gun? hehe...

Anyway, to answer your question - my strategy sucks in many situations. (I still love being able to shoot so many times tho)

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Surrealistik on March 29, 2008, 09:22:19 pm

As the weapons presently stand to my knowledge, SMG is better, vastly so that you needn't even consider the MG. Its only advantage, and it's not much of one, is slightly better penetration due to more per bullet damage.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 29, 2008, 10:24:18 pm

Okeh, here goes [both compared on their shorter bursts]:

gun   range    time (TU)   damage   shots MG    70         12             25 5         6 SMG   45         7              20 3         5

So while the SMG is a great weapon, the MG has about 50% more range and 25% more damage per bullet.  The caveat, of course, is the time commitment.  If, however, you give the MG to a fast trooper you can force the BEMs to keep their heads down until your other troops get close enough to flame them.   8)

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Surrealistik on March 31, 2008, 01:16:47 am

Excluding the SMG's ludicrous full auto renders any comparison between the two weapons null and void. It's the SMG's insane, imbal firepower than makes it THE weapon of choice overall. The signifigant edge the MG enjoys in max range is something of an advantage, but I find that on most occasions, either the gun's deviation renders it worthless, or it doesn't come into effect at all.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: shevegen on March 31, 2008, 02:01:28 am

Maybe the devs could consider to give the MG a slight damage bonus, or maybe have it fire one or two bullets more. :)

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 31, 2008, 07:20:16 am

Quote from: Surrealistik on March 31, 2008, 01:16:47 am

Excluding the SMG's ludicrous full auto renders any comparison between the two weapons null and void. It's the SMG's insane, imbal firepower than makes it THE weapon of choice overall.

I agree.  Part of the problem is the 'spread' of bullets from an SMG is way too tight, tighter than the longer-barreled Assault Rifle.  It should be at least 2.5 on the full-auto mode.  Right now it's nowhere close to "spray and pray".

Quote from: shevegen on March 31, 2008, 02:01:28 am

Maybe the devs could consider to give the MG a slight damage bonus, or maybe have it fire one or two bullets more. :)

The damage given for the MG is unrealistically low - almost half that of an Assault Rifle.  Making MG bullets a "42 5", or equivalent of the Assault Rifle, would go a long way towards making an MG as useful in the game as it is in the real world.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 12:11:28 pm

Quote from: Doctor J on March 31, 2008, 07:20:16 am

I agree. Part of the problem is the 'spread' of bullets from an SMG is way too tight, tighter than the longer-barreled Assault Rifle. It should be at least 2.5 on the full-auto mode. Right now it's nowhere close to "spray and pray".

The damage given for the MG is unrealistically low - almost half that of an Assault Rifle. Making MG bullets a "42 5", or equivalent of the Assault Rifle, would go a long way towards making an MG as useful in the game as it is in the real world.

Have you tried changing the weapons script like that to see how it works out? Don't forget that the MG does NOT use the same armour values as the assault rifle.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 31, 2008, 06:16:45 pm

Quote from: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 12:11:28 pm

Have you tried changing the weapons script like that to see how it works out? Don't forget that the MG does NOT use the same armour values as the assault rifle.

I haven't yet tried out my modifications; i will.  You are referring to "normal_spray" vs. "normal_medium"?  Okeh, i'll have to investigate the difference.  When i grep for this i only see it in the .ufo files.  Is there a comment in the code somewhere discussing how it is used?

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 06:52:09 pm

The different damage weights are basically completely different damage types, except of course all the weights in a family are supposed to be more or less equally effective per armour. Just look at the armour script file.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 31, 2008, 08:25:19 pm

I already had armour.ufo open, but i don't see anything telling me how these numbers are applied.  Is it the case that the number listed for the damage type on that armor is simply subtracted from the damage carried by the bullet?

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 08:35:05 pm

Yes, that's right. The armour value is subtracted from the weapon damage (after randomness). If the result is 0 or lower, it's set to 1.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on March 31, 2008, 08:52:19 pm

Okeh, got it.  After i get done monkeying around with this, is there enough interest in me posting the results?

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 09:37:53 pm

Depends on the results.

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: Doctor J on April 04, 2008, 05:22:03 pm

Quote from: BTAxis on March 31, 2008, 09:37:53 pm

Depends on the results.

For a variety of reasons, i haven't yet been able to start a mission in 2.3 with the weapons of my choosing.  I have been using this tweak in my 2.2 campaign, and no surprises.  Summary:

1) changed the MG bullet to "42 5" - close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades
2) changed SMG spread as follows: Snapshot from 1.5 to 1.9, 5-Round Burst from 1.7 to 2.2, Full-Auto from 1.8 to 2.5
3) generous commenting as i saw fit

Edit: this time i remembered to attach the script.   ::)

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Machine Guns
Post by: BTAxis on April 04, 2008, 08:56:17 pm

For weapon testing, I recommend multiplayer. Start a non-public coop2 server and force the start of the server. The advantage is that you get to load out your soldiers in advance. Not to mention that all weapons are available that way, even the ones that aren't in the singleplayer game at all.