New user, with a suggestion you've heard 100 times, and some feedback

[anonymissimus]

Those mission targets sound interesting - is it more than just "kill all of the aliens" ?
In a base attack there could e.g. be a target to kill those aliens in the vicinity of that PSI transmitter only or similar, you get the idea. That would be pretty logical too, instead of tracking down every last alien, disable the base. Just an idea I just had.

I am for sure would be able to ignore whatever you write if I just wanted to.

Ignore me, but ignoring the fact that reproducing and tracking down battlescape bugs by using battlescape saves was much easier would be...illogical? For instance, it's totally possible for this issue to be fixed already, if only I had been able to save in those situations, as  that would probably have enabled me to nail down the exact circumstances triggering the bug. As it needs repeated restarts from the same situation, it requires keeping the save file. So the behavior would be cheating, assuming playing circumstances.
A very long time ago, wesnoth did also not allow saving while a scenario is already running I was told, only at the start or end of a scenario, similar to UFO:AI does at present. I don't want to imagine what the game's stability in combat would be like without "battlescape saves"...

Is it the map and the AI, or is it the way we play?

The way of playing ?
I may be able to do an attack onto a small alien base in 3 hours, but anything less is just suicide. There's also the problem that you don't know the size of the base and therefore the length previously, perhaps that could be given as a hint ?
It's not as if attacks on alien bases would be rare or something, in 2.4 it ended the campaign. But in 2.5 or 2.6 I destroy at the very least 3 bases or so until the campaign ends, up to maybe 10. And that despite shooting down supply ships as soon as possible, usually.

[Rodmar]

For now, we may only have hints on the briefing screen, just before entering a mission (and this is quite logical).Their are still to be improved (with those tactical hints and estimates).
We could also have these briefing screens open when we click on a mission locator on the geoscape.
It's true that currently, the estimated length and other characteristics of a mission is something we learn by playing; if we take note of this, I mean.




As a workaround, we could have sensors (i.e. a toggle sensor option) that would add pings on the radar screen, bypassing the visibility system. Now the challenge would reduce to: how to find and kill them. Not kidding, this could be like an "accessibility" option that would basically change temporarily the duration of a mission (by making it easier to find the enemy), as if it would be possible to dynamically change the difficulty settings from within the campaign.

People would use this option until the game is enhanced, or they get bored to not have as much as challenge anymore. And when they are ready for a few hours gaming session, they could toggle the option back, to return to normal gameplay. That way, there is no battlescape save management to implement, and people would do as I do: saving before entering a mission, and reloading (on another day if time is short) in case of disaster, or if any valuable NCO or officer get KIA.

[anonymissimus]

As a workaround, we could have sensors (i.e. a toggle sensor option) that would add pings on the radar screen, bypassing the visibility system. Now the challenge would reduce to: how to find and kill them. Not kidding, this could be like an "accessibility" option that would basically change temporarily the duration of a mission (by making it easier to find the enemy), as if it would be possible to dynamically change the difficulty settings from within the campaign.

That basically makes every map similar to a base defense, when one soldier stays in the camera room ? Our AI's main strength however is its cheat, knowing when and how to reach and shoot at a soldier previously to doing it. That way I can ensure to always stay out of reach, as in a base defense. Not very funny.

That way, there is no battlescape save management to implement, and people would do as I do: saving before entering a mission, and reloading (on another day if time is short) in case of disaster, or if any valuable NCO or officer get KIA.

Please mind my point about battlescape bug reproduction as well. Something a player who also reports bugs should understand.

[ShipIt]

Those mission targets sound interesting - is it more than just "kill all of the aliens" ?

Usually this is "Secure a certain area for a given number of turns to win the mission.", but there a several other possibilities to use it.

In a base attack there could e.g. be a target to kill those aliens in the vicinity of that PSI transmitter only or similar, you get the idea. That would be pretty logical too, instead of tracking down every last alien, disable the base. Just an idea I just had.

Well, right now you have to secure the power core and the PSI-device for some turns to win the alien base mission. As the AI actively tries to prevent the player from reaching his objectives, this plays different and thus is a nice addition
The same goes for Mansion, where you can win by securing the "panik room", instead of crawling through every chamber looking for this last, lonely Bloodspider hiding in some corner. In base defence, aliens now will try to blow up you Power Plant, Antimatter Storage or Command Center in order to win. Also, in battlescape missions your dropship (Firebird only) is now a target for aliens.

Right now we are about to sort out how to display the information needed for the player, as this is confusing as is. Unfortunately our buildbot died some time ago, so there is no other chance than self-compiling 2.6-dev to check things out.

[Rodmar]

Not very funny.

It would be a workaround, while we're waiting for a better AI.
Moreover, I doubt a better AI (and map objectives) will completely change the fact that a full turn takes up to 5 minutes, and any player with less than half an hour of past time keep finding missions too long. That's why I said "accessibility". But perhaps a roguelike is not like counterstrikelike, I don't know.

Please mind my point about battlescape bug reproduction as well. Something a player who also reports bugs should understand.

It's because I play on v2.5 stable, and the only bugs I spot on are "static" and easily reproducible (no need so far for a saved game). Though I'm still trying to reproduce some weird side effects when you add employees to a nearly completed task, or when you transfer things, and there's no more room when they arrive, etc.

[damiac]

I experience occasional battlescape crashes when ending my turn sometimes, where it just crashes right back to the world map, and it's like the mission never happened, the firebird is at the ufo site, idling, with all the soldiers, even the ones who were killed in the mission that crashed.  If there was a save for the turn before this happened, it's be a lot easier to reproduce. 

Obviously, battlescape saves don't solve all the problems, nor does it make the battlescape situation any more fun (Not that I don't think it is fun now, but it could be even more fun). 

What I've noticed are the most fun maps are the ones that are largely open, with a buildings here and there.  What seems to happen is the aliens can all move toward you each turn, but due to the landscape, they end up coming from different angles and at different times, although they do end up covering each other quite a bit. 

The extremely open maps, like the farm one, aren't bad, but the openness tends to remove some of the tactical play, meaning you're mostly just shooting at each other from long distances.  Smoke grenades keep these maps from being truly unfair, but adding a barn or some small buildings would probably make these maps a bit more fun.

The least fun maps tend to be very large, with complex hallways, like the military base mission, where the aliens mostly just get stuck in various rooms, and you have to tediously hunt them down in this giant complex.  It's hard to keep patient through 20-30 turns with no action.

[anonymissimus]

Well, right now you have to secure the power core and the PSI-device for some turns to win the alien base mission. As the AI actively tries to prevent the player from reaching his objectives, this plays different and thus is a nice addition

I'm sure it is. I hope there are ways for the player to know which rooms or areas these are then. Screenshots could help.

In base defence, aliens now will try to blow up you Power Plant, Antimatter Storage or Command Center in order to win.

Cool. When will that happen then and how ? For instance, if at least one soldier is around still or otherwise no alien but nobody, it shouldn't, should it ?[/quote]

[damiac]

That's really cool, objectives really help tighten the tactical situation, and create a lot more tension by forcing conflict over a specific part of the map.  Suddenly I can't take 100 turns to move 10 steps, throwing smoke grenades the whole way(Not that I actually do this, but it would be more optimal than how I really play).  Patient tactics are boring, rushing tactics are much more fun!

[ShipIt]

I'm sure it is. I hope there are ways for the player to know which rooms or areas these are then. Screenshots could help.
Cool. When will that happen then and how ? For instance, if at least one soldier is around still or otherwise no alien but nobody, it shouldn't, should it ?

Right now, those areas are simply marked by green smoke. The mission briefings are not updated yet, the messages you get in game are still very basic. This is all still WIP.

Hopefully I find some time to make a post in the forums, to explain what is going on. Screenshots included. Progress is documented in our wiki: http://ufoai.org/wiki/Talk:Mapping/Entities/misc_mission

[hwoarangmy]

Well, right now you have to secure the power core and the PSI-device for some turns to win the alien base mission. As the AI actively tries to prevent the player from reaching his objectives, this plays different and thus is a nice addition
The same goes for Mansion, where you can win by securing the "panik room", instead of crawling through every chamber looking for this last, lonely Bloodspider hiding in some corner. In base defence, aliens now will try to blow up you Power Plant, Antimatter Storage or Command Center in order to win. Also, in battlescape missions your dropship (Firebird only) is now a target for aliens.

That sounds really cool. I will have a go to check how that works ^^

[Rodmar]

By the way, those who want to test the concept may try and stumble on the Fuel Deposit mission  (frozen) (as soon as v2.5 stable). There are two such activators, and a mission briefing. To be frank, the mission objective "Get there and hold for X turns" is just a demonstrator in this case, because when you get here, all but one alien are dead, and the map is very small.

There are several references to the Bunker map in this thread. If it's the map I think about: desert surface, large tunnel entrance, big main store room, and two levels of quarters, stores and offices...
I found out that doors to the big hall happen to be randomly or purposely closed. It the same for the corridor security doors. In some configurations, the securing time is dramatically reduced because you never have to watch your back, and two doors only are open to the big hall: in 5-6 turns nearly all the aliens that may reach the hall are deads. The other are most often trapped in on quarter of the map because of the closed doors, the stairs, etc. (you can hear them IF they walk, and locate them this way. Just beware 2-4 that are in the other small rooms, and who will jump out when your soldier get near. Next time, I'll count the number of turns, and the time needed.
What could help on this map, however, is to remove the metallic sound when an actor walk in the corridors, and to let it only for all the stairs, and the catwalk in the hall.

[anonymissimus]

There are several references to the Bunker map in this thread. If it's the map I think about: desert surface, large tunnel entrance, big main store room, and two levels of quarters, stores and offices...

That is military shelter, as opposed to bunker. Which features lots of concrete instead of metal and is a pretty fast map.
Yes, military shelter belongs to the most tedious maps, aside from alien base attacks. And is not present in 2.5 yet IIRC.

(you can hear them IF they walk, and locate them this way.

I know the sound changes based on the unit that's moving and the material it's moving on, but not strictly due to the location, no ?
A map where this is very useful is old mine, since there only the stairs are made of metal, so you can know if/when a Taman/Sheevar/Ortnok changes its level.

[Rodmar]

I know the sound changes based on the unit that's moving and the material it's moving on, but not strictly due to the location, no ?

It's a guess. If you zoom enough during the Aliens turn, you may notice if the steps are quite near or from afar (ahead) this tile, and from the right or from the left. I read that there's a bug when the sound comes from behind (volume is too high), however. Again, caution should be taken because sometimes, an Alien doesn't move, or moves only one step.

Out of the topic, it's a habit a player comes to build: listening to the foot steps. That, plus the terrain sound (snow and metal are easy), and the distinctive sounds emitted by humanoids, spiders and hovernets. When you are lucky, they alternate perfectly (spider, foot, spider, hovernet, foot, ...), and knowing the max size of a crew, you may quite accurately guess who is where.

[hwoarangmy]

If it's the map I think about: desert surface, large tunnel entrance, big main store room, and two levels of quarters, stores and offices...
I found out that doors to the big hall happen to be randomly or purposely closed. It the same for the corridor security doors. In some configurations, the securing time is dramatically reduced because you never have to watch your back, and two doors only are open to the big hall: in 5-6 turns nearly all the aliens that may reach the hall are deads. The other are most often trapped in on quarter of the map because of the closed doors, the stairs, etc. (you can hear them IF they walk, and locate them this way. Just beware 2-4 that are in the other small rooms, and who will jump out when your soldier get near. Next time, I'll count the number of turns, and the time needed.
What could help on this map, however, is to remove the metallic sound when an actor walk in the corridors, and to let it only for all the stairs, and the catwalk in the hall.

Yes, that's the map I stopped to play because it is too long (I've already won it once or twice in the same game but ATM, I don't feel like messing with it). The sound stuff is interesting because I usually play with sound turned off and I didn't know it changed depending on where the alien walks.

[anonymissimus]

Out of the topic, it's a habit a player comes to build: listening to the foot steps. That, plus the terrain sound (snow and metal are easy), and the distinctive sounds emitted by humanoids, spiders and hovernets. When you are lucky, they alternate perfectly (spider, foot, spider, hovernet, foot, ...), and knowing the max size of a crew, you may quite accurately guess who is where.

More reliable than that is observing the movement behavior of civilians though. If they are running into some direction, it generally means that aliens are in the opposite direction. While if they don't move much or stay put, it's a guarantee that they are not in movement range of aliens. And they know the movement range of aliens much better than the player does, can be observed when spiders try to catch them. Aliens may still be able to shoot from afar, but for smoke covered snipers or so who shoot from afar anyway it's useful to know that no hostile plasma blades are near.