General > Discussion

Finished game on 2.5 Hard mode. Thoughts and experiences.

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MonkeyHead:
I 100% agree that some kind of EP round (or some human tech based plasma weapon) for colse ocmbat is needed - the close combat tech tree is pretty much done by mid game with plasma blasters, plasma blades and laser pistols (until very late game if you can keep a ready supply of PB pistol ammo, which I find hard to do). A EP Shotgun similar to the blasters ball fire mode maybe, SMG rounds like Assault rifle lite, or some kind of plasma torch derived from the flame thrower/plasma blade even.

I tend to use EP over the PB line as the PB line has not so great accuracy so single shots at mid range or greater often miss (when multiple single sots form laser or EP would hit), and the rifle lacks an automatic fire mode for close in stopping power. This is best shown with the PB blaster. You only hurt an alien if you hit it, which is where the HMG is better. More on that later.

As regards the current implementation of EP - it is designed to be an armour penetrator, and is justified in game with the research text. I am under the impression that limitations within the game mechanics are responsible for its behaviour regarding unarmoured targets, but to be fair by the time I have them in my arsenal the enemy are all heavily armoured save for the Shevaar (who have natural armour according to thier fluff text in any case). It is fairly overpowered, but no more so than PB weapons, and there is something nice about defeating the alien horde with weapons based on human ingenuity rather than taking wepons from the hands of dead aliens and using them back on them.

As for machine guns... I use them early game primarily as a support weapon, with typically no more than one per squad, two at maximum. Its user hangs back a little from combat and saturates an area with fire. Yes, it is horribly innacurate, but more than cabable of softening up enemies at range, especially the basic hovernet and bloodspiders who will not reaction fire back at you, or when firing from smoke in the first few rounds of combat, or at enemies who have no TU's left, be it from thier movement or a flashbang. I drop it midgame for the Heavy laser which I use as a long range assault weapon just like the normal Laser rifle, but late game when heavily armoured enemies and EP rounds come around it reverts back to its support role. It may attract reaction fire, but at long range this fire is often innacuate, and the sheer number of rounds it fires will land a few hits, wounding pretty much anything badly, especially with EP rounds. Consider the needler - it fulfils a similar role, but with worse accuracy, lower per projectile damage, and a lot more projectiles with similar TU use and more weight than a HMG.

Of course, with so many different approaches to combat possible, YMMV.

H-Hour:

--- Quote from: Telok on October 27, 2013, 05:12:09 am ---EP ammo penetrates heavy alien armor as though it was a leather apron but does no more damage to an unarmored taman than regular lead bullets do.

--- End quote ---

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but regular AR ammo base damage is 42. AR EP's base damage is 90, so it does more than twice as much damage to an unarmoured target. And this is before you factor in aliens' innate resistance. Both Ortnok and Shevaar have "resilient bodies", and perform well against regular AR ammo, but get no protection against AR EP ammo.

FYI, I do plan to implement EP ammo for shotguns at least, possibly also the SMG to rehabilitate that unused weapon a bit. But to be honest I have never had the plasma blaster hit its target without killing it, so I may have to drop the plasma blaster's power a touch to make the shotgun EP ammo worth it in the late game.

And I tend to play like Telok (machine guns and needlers aren't my thing), but I can appreciate that some play styles will make good use of them.

MonkeyHead:
I use the SMG a LOT early game for troops with close combat skill and decent accuracy (troops with rubbish accuracy get the microshotgun for death or glory close combat murdering) to harass the enemy at range - especially if they have strength in the 30 to 32 range and cant carry a full load of kit with a heavier weapon. It is nigh on useless when alien armour shows up though, but that is totally appropriate. EP rounds for it would be a welcome addition.

As for a EP shotgun round... perhaps the range and accuracy of the plasma blaster could be nerfed further rather than the damage, whilst tweaking the shotgun accuracy up a little, giving us a plasma blaster that will kill anything close in (so a slightly longer range flamethrower) but wont hit anything regularly from more than say 6 to 8 tiles away, and a shotgun that will badly maim anything if it hits, with reasonable accuracy up to 10 tiles or so? A EP shotgun with a lower weight would be a more than sensible alternative to a heavy plasma blaster for power armoured troops who might not have the strength for heavy armour and heavy weapon.

Telok:

--- Quote from: H-Hour on October 27, 2013, 11:24:54 am ---Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but regular AR ammo base damage is 42. AR EP's base damage is 90
--- End quote ---

OK, I didn't know that because I always produce EP sniper ammo first and the damage boost isn't very impressive on those, you're really looking for the armor penetration. If the MG EP ammo has a similar damage boost to the AR EP ammo then spray-and-pray might be powerful enough to do something positive for your soldiers. I dunno, I still feel that if you want mere wounding shots at long range the higher accuracy of the AR is still superior to the weight in ammo that the MG uses. I don't use needlers much either but I can see keeping one on hand for long distance, low %hit, wounding. Those hundred-ish shots normally get a hit or three where a MG at the same %hit gets 1/4th the shots and hits.


--- Quote from: MonkeyHead on October 27, 2013, 09:12:30 am ---I tend to use EP over the PB line as the PB line has not so great accuracy so single shots at mid range or greater often miss (when multiple single sots form laser or EP would hit), and the rifle lacks an automatic fire mode for close in stopping power. This is best shown with the PB blaster. You only hurt an alien if you hit it, which is where the HMG is better.
--- End quote ---

I'm pretty sure my opening post noted that PB blasters are uselessly inaccurate and disgustingly heavy. Once they're out of alien hands and into mine I don't consider them weapons so much as big bags of money. But I'm pretty sure that the PB rifle compares favorably in accuracy and TUs to the human AR and it's damage is impressive. I've never missed the full-auto from the AR while using the PB rifle because the 3-round burst on the PB will kill anything if all three shots hit, and the horrendous wounds from two hits usually sends aliens into panic mode if they survive the bleeding. I don't think the PB rifle really needs a full-auto mode to be an awesome death ray.


--- Quote from: MonkeyHead on October 27, 2013, 09:12:30 am ---As regards the current implementation of EP - it is designed to be an armour penetrator, and is justified in game with the research text. I am under the impression that limitations within the game mechanics are responsible for its behaviour regarding unarmoured targets, but to be fair by the time I have them in my arsenal the enemy are all heavily armoured save for the Shevaar (who have natural armour according to thier fluff text in any case). It is fairly overpowered, but no more so than PB weapons, and there is something nice about defeating the alien horde with weapons based on human ingenuity rather than taking wepons from the hands of dead aliens and using them back on them.
--- End quote ---

I think that my objection to the way EP ammo is handled is that it is supposed to be an armor penetrator that explodes during penetration. Which is fine but even armor penetrators are still affected by armor and this round isn't. The current setup really is just a magic bullet that ignores all armor. It grates on my sense of realism, and I do fully appreciate the irony of that statement. Let me put it this way, the current implementation of EP ammo violates what I know of ballistic armor penetration and ammunition construction without a sufficiently convincing explanation of it's effects. I'll read the UFOpedia again and see if I missed anything. It's not the existence or function of EP ammo I dislike, it's the magic bullet nature of the current system.

MonkeyHead:
H-Hour, why not make the Particle Blaster a close combat skill weapon? I mean, its useless at anything other than point blank range anyway.

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