General > Discussion

2.5 sucks completely

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homunculus:

--- Quote from: kurja on June 07, 2013, 01:22:59 pm ---As for getting shot in the face when peeking around a corner, I don't see why that shouldn't happen every now and then.
whatever. it's not like I was laying out plans for some shortly upcoming feature.

--- End quote ---
Oh, well, that seems to miss the point entirely. I meant your soldiers (or the aliens) shouldn't be able to run so long in the enemy reaction fire area. Which should be at least half-way similar to what you seem to be suggesting.
That, and first shot of a burst happening even sooner.

Xeinar:
The overwatch idea is good (still it seems a redundance of RF reserved points).
In order to avoid instant kill, the rule could be something like: 1) the unit steps in the line of sight 2) if a second uncovered step is taken, (overwatch) RF is activated 2) if a second step is take and goes in cover, there is no RF 3) if the unit rotates on the same spot without taking a second step, no RF is activated.

This would:
- keep on working with the TU count (take one step AND firing would result in a preemptive RF)
- allow aimed RF (sniper rifle, for example)
- avoid instant kill (the soldier/alien can react to a false movement before being blasted)

H-Hour:
I am more inclined to keep it simple, not RF-specific and without conditions, such as:

Overwatch will improve accuracy and reduce the TU cost of firing by half, but limit the unit's visibility. A soldier will leave overwatch when they move, crouch or turn.

Then, entering overwatch would cost a flat rate (say, 20-24 TUs). The benefits (improved accuracy and cheaper firemode) could be used during the player's turn or during the enemy's turn in reaction fire.

This would interact well with the TU-cost distributions we have in place. A pistol (4 -> 2 TU) would be able to RF after a single grid movement. A snap shot or shotgun (8 -> 4 TU) would give the target an opportunity to retreat but not to do anything else. Burst modes and the cheapest flamer firemode (12 -> 6 TU) would RF before the target could fire everything but pistols. And an aimed Sniper Rifle (20 -> 10 TU) would not be able to beat an alien in a close-up battle, but would be more effective at returning fire when covering distant areas (which would fit its role well).

At a cost of 20-24 TUs, it would interact well with the average TUs of a lightly equipped sniper (40-42). A light sniper could enter overwatch and still get off two shots in a turn (Sniper Rifle only). An assault rifle soldier with normal equip average TUs (~32) could enter overwatch and still possibly take two snap shots in a turn, but would be unable to move much having done so. However, a lightly equipped assault rifle soldier (40-42 TUs) could enter overwatch and then take three to four burst shots. That may be excessive. This could be resolved by making the overwatch cost a % of total TUs, but this would create a situation where the player would not be certain how much it costs and it would go against TU transactions for every other action in the battlescape.

Benefits:

* It's very easy to understand the effect.
* It works the same way, always.
* It is valuable enough to use but (maybe) not overpowered.
Drawbacks:

* It might very well be overpowered and shift the impetus on the battlefield to defensive strategies. It would need playtesting.
* Players will still complain that their sniper can't instakill from across the map.

MonkeyHead:
Just going to drop my own minor opinion in here if that is ok with everyone.

Played 2.4 through one full campaign, and switched to 2.5 after that - played it solidly now for a month or so, taking a campaign into the middle game, but no further before choosing to restart. Why you ask? Needlers.  >:(

I know that sounds like a minor peeve, but other than that the balance for 2.5 is overall very good (tested extensivley in the single mission mode to check how needlers compared to particle weapons in the regard). 2.5 rewards agressive play, and punishes mistakes. I was winning most ground combats, and would loose at least one trooper per mission, until those god damn needle guns came along. Quite simply IMHO they are OP when combined with the wound/bleeding out system. Aliens carrying them become death dealing gods. I know the damage done by one needle is tiny - but when several dozen of them can impact on troops even in partial cover from the entire length of the map away, taking away most of a group of troops health and leaving them bleeding out due to multiple wounds in a turn or two time and time again from whole map range it becomes a bit of a joke. I totally get them having a high RoF and cloud like dispersial, but the damage they can deal at long range is a bit silly when you consider the sheer volume of fire (which totally negates thier current level of dispersial) that they can lay down from one end of the map to the other. As soon as needlers came along I would lose almost all my ground combats and should I manage to win one I would lose most of my troops, regardless of approach (flashbangs/smoke grenades, highly cautious cover taking, use of RF, staying at extreme range, NOTHING HELPED!). Has anyone else had such difficulty with them? Unlike other Alien weapons (such as extreme short range of plasma blaster, innacuracy of plasma rifle) they seem to have no weakness.

H-Hour:
It's definitely a change when needlers start appearing, but I find the threat from them is very map-dependent. The more open ground you have to cover the more difficult it becomes. The high TU costs of the needler, however, are its big drawback. I found the most effective way to deal with them was to not draw their fire. On large open maps, smoke was the only effective way to prevent return fire. On smaller maps with some cover, indirect fire and drawing the enemy in to a closer range where I could use low TU firemodes helped. The nice thing about needlers is knowing I can get off a snap shot without taking RF.

But of course the needlers are still gonna fire some. For these occassions, I found I really had to use all 12 soldiers (have you gotten the Herakles yet?). When soldiers were injured I just had to take them off the front lines and task another soldier or two to patch them up. If you're still going in with just 8 soldiers, you may not have the manpower to do that. But keep the research program up and you'll get the Herakles not too long after needlers start appearing. And in really dire situations, it helps to have some rookies that you can sacrifice by putting them in harm's way (be sure to keep the rest of your soldiers well away from them!). For this purpose I typically bring 1-2 "scouts", lightly equipped and unarmoured for extra TUs, carrying an assault rifle and a ton of grenades. They're great for reconnaissance and gutsy grenade tossing that saves everyone else. But they never survive long so I don't mind sending one to his death to protect one of my veterans.

From the mid-game onwards (about when needlers start to appear), I found most of the time I had at least a few soldiers off deployments in hospital and sometimes up to 10. Training up a bigger squad that can rotate on and off the battlefield will help for this (and the incentives and stat-growth rate for this should improve in future versions).

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