General > Discussion

2.5 sucks completely

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Merlin:

--- Quote from: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:22:13 am ---Ahh, ok. You don't realize how reaction fire works. If your build is after May 7, you should have an entry in the ufopaedia, under Basic Concepts (Ground Combat), which explains reaction fire. It is not a free shot on the enemy as soon as they appear. It's a first-to-the-draw race using TUs. Here's the text we've added to the game that explains it.

This is why, in the picture example I provided, the difference between an 8 TU and a 12 TU reaction firemode matters so much. Ideally, we'll some day have some in-battle feedback on RF that makes it clearer what is happening. But for now this is all we've got.

--- End quote ---

You know, after I walked away the word "Threshold" stayed with me and I think I figured that out after walking away. But if that's the case, it still makes no sense and is in my mind rather silly compared to the other two games that I can compare it to, X-Coms and the remake XCOM(yeah this is gonna get confusing).

It takes 16 TUs to reaction fire with snap shot. That means an alien can walk, shoot, and leave before he spends 16 TUs if he's moving around a corner. Heck this explains why my snipers never react. An Alien would have to be dancing in front of them the entire turn before the sniper figures out "Hey I should shoot this guy".

I also find it silly because the two XCOM games(The first and the remake) just had you set it up and they would fire on the first guy that walked into sight. When I go on reaction fire I want to spend my unit's turn to overwatch and shoot the guy that turns the corner. But the system here wants me to worry about "okay how long will the Alien be in my line of sight before I die"? No, to me that's a bad idea! I'm giving up my turn to shoot Aliens during their turn! I shouldn't have to worry about how many TUs they decide to burn.


--- Quote from: kurja on June 03, 2013, 10:32:23 am ---How are you loading your soldiers? If you find yourself short of TU's have you tried going light to get those bonus time units? I usually have my "assault team" without armor and using light weapons, like shotguns, lasers or rifles, wielding forty-plus TU's they basically sprint from cover to cover spotting enemies for snipers and grenadiers to kill and when they don't have a shot I'll use smoke and shoot them close up in the back :) At the end of my turn I arrange them defensively for reaction fire. Reaction fire mechanics are now really simple actually, actions that take less TU's happen first and a target needs to be seen for as many TU's as a reaction shot needs. which is where those shotguns are handy.

You didn't comment on my question of purging ufo's or small buildings, what's your strategy for that if you don't carry any short range weapons?

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For gear I tend to have; Primary, Armor, 2 Reloads, Medikit. From there it's extras like grenades or side weapons. I never try to go without armor though at where I am in the game, might as well. Everything one shots my guys it seems. I've had soldiers that could only carry their explosive weapon and armor, that's it. Reaction Fire to me is still fiddly. "Mr. Alien could you stand right there for a minute while I get my sights right to shoot you?" Sure it might be more real, soldier taking time to actually aim, but when I go on reaction fire I want to oh, React, when I see an alien the moment they step in view.

As for Purging UFOs and Small Buildings, combo of grenades and time. Aliens are still stupid and are prone to leaving their hidey holes after enough time. If they don't well; Flash bang around the corner, Grenades and Incendiary at spots where I think the aliens are and smoke right on top my guys. Because Aliens can just walk through past my guy and shoot him in the back if I try to reaction fire.


--- Quote from: DarkRain on June 03, 2013, 07:26:46 pm ---@Merlin: Which is your build's date? I have this feeling you are using an old one for some reason.

--- End quote ---

May 25th 2013. I'm not playing a very old one.

ShipIt:

--- Quote from: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:05:15 pm ---...
It takes 16 8 TUs to reaction fire with snap shot.
...
--- End quote ---

H-Hour:

--- Quote from: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:05:15 pm ---I'm giving up my turn to shoot Aliens during their turn! I shouldn't have to worry about how many TUs they decide to burn.
--- End quote ---
I'm against this method because it inherently preferences defensive over offensive tactics. If I can be sure that my unit on RF will fire on an enemy the moment it appears, then it is always in my interest to encounter the enemy during the enemy's turn. The enemy will be lower on TU because they will have moved into view and they will probably be closer because they've had to move into my carefully limited field of view. This defensive advantage would be exacerbated by our poor alien AI, which can't really play defensively in this way, doesn't understand indirect fire and loves to rush the closest target.

It would be inherently unbalanced in multiplayer, too.


--- Quote from: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:05:15 pm ---Heck this explains why my snipers never react. An Alien would have to be dancing in front of them the entire turn before the sniper figures out "Hey I should shoot this guy".
--- End quote ---
You must keep in mind that a firemode takes into account a series of actions, not just the firing of the weapon as soon as something is spotted. It also entails the time it takes to raise the weapon and sight in the target. If a soldier could just as easily and quickly do this with a sniper rifle as they could with an assault rifle, all soldiers would take them in real life. But scopes reduce situational awareness (hence the range of low-magnification scopes typically used on assault rifles), and sniper rifles are bigger, heavier and take more time to aim unless a sniper has already dialed into the keyhole (something which is not really appropriate for the scale or pace of our battlefields).

Snipers are not reaction fire specialists and shouldn't really be used in that capacity (except on very long range maps from defensive positions). Probably the biggest misconception is that Reaction Fire is Overwatch -- but in UFO:AI we don't yet have any mechanism to properly handle overwatch, in which a soldier prepares himself to fire rapidly on a specific target area. I'd like to see something like this implemented some day, with the ability to spend TUs to increase fire rate and/or accuracy in a small target area in exchange for losing some wider field of view. But it's not here yet.


--- Quote from: Merlin on June 03, 2013, 09:05:15 pm ---I also find it silly because the two XCOM games(The first and the remake) just had you set it up and they would fire on the first guy that walked into sight.
--- End quote ---
Whoa, whoa, whoa! I haven't played the new one, but the old one was definitely not that simple, especially early on (hence the need for reactions training). The original had a reaction fire stat and, before it was adequately trained, your soldiers almost never took their shots first. The high reaction fire stat of the aliens was also the source of the enter-room-die-immediately frustration that was endemic to clearing UFOs.

Reaction Fire is not properly communicated through the UI, which is a real problem I don't want to pretend doesn't exist. But the system is actually not that complicated when you figure it out, and it does reinforce something that I think is a vital part of the 2.5 weapons balance revamp: the most important tactics are squad-based, not soldier-based. You need to use your soldiers in supportive roles to cover for each other's weaknesses. No matter how good a soldier you have, they will be defenseless in some situations. This is a significant improvement over 2.4, where you basically equipped your guys with the best weapons you could and sent them into a shootout with the aliens. It's often the people who were most used to this old style of play who have had the hardest time adjusting to the new style. But in spite of the title of this thread (which will, apparently, never die), I am convinced that the ground combat in 2.5 is more tactically interesting, more intellectually challenging and, therefore, more fun, than 2.4.

Merlin:

--- Quote from: ShipIt on June 03, 2013, 09:31:49 pm ---

--- End quote ---

8 TUs to prepare + 8 to snap shot = 16 TUs. Aliens must pass a 'threshold' before being shot. I used 16 TUs so they must use 16 TUs before I shoot.


--- Quote from: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:20:13 pm ---I'm against this method because it inherently preferences defensive over offensive tactics. If I can be sure that my unit on RF will fire on an enemy the moment it appears, then it is always in my interest to encounter the enemy during the enemy's turn. The enemy will be lower on TU because they will have moved into view and they will probably be closer because they've had to move into my carefully limited field of view. This defensive advantage would be exacerbated by our poor alien AI, which can't really play defensively in this way, doesn't understand indirect fire and loves to rush the closest target.

It would be inherently unbalanced in multiplayer, too.
--- End quote ---

So rather than making it work that way for fear of making game play too defensive, you make players play defensive anyway because they can't rely on Reaction Fire? Also, don't care for balance in multiplayer myself so can't say how it would affect it.


--- Quote from: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:20:13 pm ---You must keep in mind that a firemode takes into account a series of actions, not just the firing of the weapon as soon as something is spotted. It also entails the time it takes to raise the weapon and sight in the target. If a soldier could just as easily and quickly do this with a sniper rifle as they could with an assault rifle, all soldiers would take them in real life. But scopes reduce situational awareness (hence the range of low-magnification scopes typically used on assault rifles), and sniper rifles are bigger, heavier and take more time to aim unless a sniper has already dialed into the keyhole (something which is not really appropriate for the scale or pace of our battlefields).

Snipers are not reaction fire specialists and shouldn't really be used in that capacity (except on very long range maps from defensive positions). Probably the biggest misconception is that Reaction Fire is Overwatch -- but in UFO:AI we don't yet have any mechanism to properly handle overwatch, in which a soldier prepares himself to fire rapidly on a specific target area. I'd like to see something like this implemented some day, with the ability to spend TUs to increase fire rate and/or accuracy in a small target area in exchange for losing some wider field of view. But it's not here yet.
--- End quote ---

I used snipers as an example since they have some of the largest pools of TUs needed to reaction fire. An alien would need to sit there dancing before they fired. Worst case alien come around the corner and shoots him from across an open field killing him before the sniper goes "oh look ET, better shoot him". Also, given that aliens are invading with plasma weapons, anti matter engines and a plan to conquer the human race, I thought we gave up on 'realism' when it came to the specific actions a soldier must do to shoot.


--- Quote from: H-Hour on June 03, 2013, 10:20:13 pm ---Whoa, whoa, whoa! I haven't played the new one, but the old one was definitely not that simple, especially early on (hence the need for reactions training). The original had a reaction fire stat and, before it was adequately trained, your soldiers almost never took their shots first. The high reaction fire stat of the aliens was also the source of the enter-room-die-immediately frustration that was endemic to clearing UFOs.

Reaction Fire is not properly communicated through the UI, which is a real problem I don't want to pretend doesn't exist. But the system is actually not that complicated when you figure it out, and it does reinforce something that I think is a vital part of the 2.5 weapons balance revamp: the most important tactics are squad-based, not soldier-based. You need to use your soldiers in supportive roles to cover for each other's weaknesses. No matter how good a soldier you have, they will be defenseless in some situations. This is a significant improvement over 2.4, where you basically equipped your guys with the best weapons you could and sent them into a shootout with the aliens. It's often the people who were most used to this old style of play who have had the hardest time adjusting to the new style. But in spite of the title of this thread (which will, apparently, never die), I am convinced that the ground combat in 2.5 is more tactically interesting, more intellectually challenging and, therefore, more fun, than 2.4.
--- End quote ---

My soldiers from the first XCOM game tended to shoot. They don't here. Maybe it was the bonkers pathfinding that made them dance for the soldier to shoot. Or maybe it's because I grouped soldiers that started with high reaction as cover soldiers. Point is, it worked more for me in that game than it does here. Also Aliens still do the enter-room-die-immediately in this game, more so because I've seen Hoverbots move, shoot 3 times, and still reaction fire.

To me there is no reason to rely on something that will not work most the time. Why sit there and pray the enemy will give you enough time to shoot when you can take cover or throw a grenade or do something that doesn't equal into putting your head between your legs and kissing your hide good by. No reason to use half the weapons, no reason to try to be defensive other than smokes, and when hoverbots show up en-mass say good bye to your soldiers. 2.5 combat is more luck, more confusing, and outright far more frustrating. God help the players if you guys ever put in Chryssalid like enemies. But I doubt nor would want the game changed just for me. Just putting forth my problems and concerns.

Also, doesn't the forum let those that control it change the name of topics?

ShipIt:

--- Quote from: Merlin on June 04, 2013, 02:59:36 am ---8 TUs to prepare + 8 to snap shot = 16 TUs. Aliens must pass a 'threshold' before being shot. I used 16 TUs so they must use 16 TUs before I shoot.

--- End quote ---

How do you spend eight TUs to "prepare" for RF? It´s simply enabling it and your soldier will use RF if he gets a chance, as often as he has enough TUs and ammo left to fire. So, if you enable RF while your soldier has eight TUs left, he is able to shot once (if the correct firemode is set in the firemode menu), if he has 16 TUs left he can shoot twice during the aliens turn.

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