General > Discussion
2.5 sucks completely
kurja:
--- Quote from: Merlin on May 31, 2013, 09:10:06 pm ---Know what else is effective early? Assault rifles just with better range. And no I don't use flamers. It's probably going to be changed to "Close" but currently it's heavy in my version, I think. Maybe. Anyway, range is the game since aliens rarely get close and when they do they tend to kill the person they got near. And unless the lab boys figure out how to make anti-matter rockets for ground troops I'm probably not going to use it.
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At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.
--- Quote from: Merlin on May 31, 2013, 09:10:06 pm ---Blaster is short range. Explain why the aliens have great aim with them across the map. Moving on from that, Shotguns need 2-3 shots at close range to down an alien. Grenade launchers were great at indirect fire in 2.4 and still are in 2.5 if they could kill anything. Also, lower RPG accuracy but larger splash radius? That could blow up in a commander's face(HA).
My biggest problem is that I don't see any reason to use weapons besides Assault and Sniper. 2.4 I ran about 3 Assaults, 2 Snipers, and the others tended to shift around depending on the map. I liked using a Rocket to take out the biggest problem I saw on the field. Now it's all Assault and Snipers. Maybe it's just my line of thinking or playing, but Close is too risky and Explosive too much work. Work meaning not being able to kill, hit, or carry anything.
Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.
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idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.
Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.
So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)
afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
Merlin:
--- Quote from: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm ---At shorter range smg's are way better, just sayin'. Faster reaction shots and they also weigh less which can make a big difference. Don't get me wrong I love to use those ar's myself but they're not all there is. In some maps you don't have the range to your advantage and in those spots flamers take out even the heaviest targets when ordinary pre alien incursion tech only-bullets basically just bounce off.
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Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.
--- Quote from: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm ---idk about the blasters, still sounds like rng to me, I never really liked to use those those myself anyway.
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Biggest problem is that a close range weapon can be fired at distance with average results.
--- Quote from: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm ---Even though the gl has lost it's 3 round burst mode I still use it a lot, it has great range, and right in early game you can cut off aliens with incendiary rounds, and ofc you can lay indirect fire which is always nice. Carry a sniper rifle and anything else, like, ammo for the rifle and you're already over the lightest encumbrance threshold, capable of one aimed shot per round, with a gl you can shoot twice or shoot and move. Having said all this, I guess it comes down to your personal preference, I use a lot of assault rifles and snipers myself too though.
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It's insanely heavy limiting ammo and support items possibly even armor. Sure my sniper can only walk a bit and shoot but he has the advantage of being far away or putting down his target. It is preference but to me it's not just preference it's what I feel like I HAVE to use.
--- Quote from: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm ---So far I've heard only rumors, nothing direct from Cdr. Cavarre, about advancing our shotgunners' damage output. As for advanced launcher grenades, antimatter rockets and some other things... look, I'm trying really hard not to post spoilers ;)
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Which falls back into the research problems I'm having in the fact of no research. I just got armor, in June. JUNE! At this rate I'll have to raid an alien base with tier 2 armor and plasma weapons.
--- Quote from: kurja on May 31, 2013, 10:25:00 pm ---afaik nothing actually uses the heavy skill anymore.
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Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.
Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.
kurja:
--- Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am ---I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens
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My point was that in some maps you might not have the luxury of choosing at what distance the battle will be fought. Ofc there are ways to enforce a distance but that's tactics for you, you like long range so you go for that, but it's not always possible. How do you purge a landed ufo of aliens using only long range combat?
afaik hovering robotic aliens aren't early game opponents?
--- Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am ---Odd mine still lists the skill used on the Flamer and Machine Gun.
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Some texts still have "heavy" in them but game mechanics-wise nothing should actually use that skill anymore.
--- Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am ---Again I'm not saying it's bad, just I liked 2.4 more at this rate.
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okay. it's still "wip" though =)
ShipIt:
--- Quote from: Merlin on May 31, 2013, 09:10:06 pm ---Also about the weapons, which skill do they use? When looking at the Shotgun it says Close, but when looking in the UFOpedia, the 'requirements' say heavy. And a few weapons seem to keep this odd dual skill thing.
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If you are playing a recent version and see stuff like that, please report it in our issue tracker. Remember, all this is still WIP.
H-Hour:
Merlin, it looks like the shotgun (and probably other weapons) still show "heavy" dependencies in the ufopaedia, but this is inaccurate. The skill that the game uses will always be the one that appears when you're looking at the weapon/ammo in the equipment menu. I've made a note to remove these ufopaedia errors when I remove the heavy skill from the UI. Please let us know if you find any other places that heavy still appears.
Regarding shotguns (I include the plasma blaster in this category). It sounds to me like you haven't quite mastered reaction fire and, for that reason, have focused your tactics on long-range encounters, using assault rifles when you have to close range. This is not a bad strategy and maintaining range is often smart when its possible. But on quite a few maps this is just not possible, and shotguns have a few advantages over assault rifles in close quarters match-ups. The attached image describes a situation where a shotgun is much better. Note: If you're taking 2-3 shots to down an alien with a shotgun, you must be using flechettes and only hitting with a few flechettes each shot. I'd recommend saboted slugs over flechette shells for killing power.
Regarding grenade launchers. I really don't know what to say on this but to respectfully disagree. These guys are the biggest killers for me at every stage of the game. Nothing can match their ability to kill at short, medium and medium-long range. Sure, I have to minimize extra equipment for low-strength rookies, but it's a small trade-off to make. The reason I only take two (8 man team) or 4 (12 man team) is because they are purely offensive.
--- Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2013, 03:58:50 am ---Doesn't matter when the hoverbots have enough TUs to move in shoot you three times for death. I like keeping my guys alive so I don't like getting close to aliens unless I know I can kill them on MY turn. Because reaction shots are still wonky. Put my guy on burst fire, he shoots (OMG) but fires one bullet before the alien turns and shoots him dead. When on burst fire. To me it's very unreliable so I use range and speed.
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There's no partial reaction fire (ie - shooting only one shot of a burst mode). It sounds like it was set to snap not burst. Easy mistake to make, even when you're sure you got it set up right. I know every time I thought RF "didn't work properly", when I made a thorough investigation, I found I had set up the wrong firemode, or had it turned off, or my soldier was wounded causing the firemode TU cost to be higher, or the alien moved out of view.
On a separate note: players have different styles and tactical preferences, and this is not a bad thing. I just wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something is "useless" just because it doesn't fit their profile. I, for instance, made heavy use of a fast sniper, who racked up the highest kill count while being protected by smoke. But ShipIt hardly used snipers. Some people consider assault specialists the primary offensive units -- but for me they were more defensive generalists, exposing themselves in dangerous forward positions to protect other soldiers and using their RF to soften distant aliens during their turn. I see this difference as part of the benefit of having diverse weaponry.
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