Psi, poison, bacter, and gameplay going further

[krilain]

Edit : finally making of all of that a digest affair...

I would collect and sort all the ideas collected in this discussion as soon as I will get some  time. There is a coherent and well argumented set of ideas, and models /
...interesting to think about how to show an idea in the game by any thin touch that recalls of the good old job.

[CriticalFumble]

There actually is a reason already in the game for their. . . questionable tactics.  You could look it up, or just keep playing until you get there (tip: catch some alive((tip:tip:if you don't know how to do that, kill an organic, research the corpse, and then research what that unlocks)). 

There's also a reason that psy-powers are in the game besides the game's heratige. 

Its also reasonable to assume that psy-powers would have some limits (such as proximity, specific targeting, and a relationship between the effectiveness of the power based on the number and strength of the users versus the number and strength of the victims) that would prevent the aliens from using it as an insta-win button. 

[Triaxx2]

As much as I enjoy realism, as soon as aliens invade, I assume realism has been thrown out the window and shot on the way down.

Psionics have a heritage within the game mechanics, which is one thing, and within the idealism of the games themselves. However, I'd like to see poison as well. Bacterial or biological agents are already taken care of by the breathing devices, at least within the Tamans.

[Anarch Cassius]

So I'm not the only one who sees the similairities to Fallout. A big part of what drew me is that Fallout Tactics was so buggy and the multiplayer was unstable and I've been looking for something to do good tactical multiplayer since.

Actually psi is way more realistic than some of what happened in Fallout 2 (though it's arguable Fallout's basic laws of physics are slightly different from the ground up and that's why plasma liquifies people and such). Fallout 2 was mostly serious but would introduce oddball elements for humor, nothing that was totally out of place but stuff that made you blink. For that matter Fallout 2 had psi and "luck". Psi was very subtle, not at all understood and never represented with it's own specific mechanic but there's a lot of weird stuff that basically comes down to psi or magic or at least improbable coincidence.

Actually aside from the lack of a specific mechanic I think that should be true in this game as well. Making a specific mechanic is an homage to Xcom but I think subtle and creepy rather than Star Wars style force powers is what is called for.

I'm a believer in Niven's Law of Magic: if psionics/magic exist, they are so weak as to be nearly useless. (At least in humans) Even looking exclusively at research that does find evidence of psi you see minimal change in chance, measureable but not really useful.

So if it's a matter of finding an alien manual and taking a 4-week course in head-exploding. I would find that absurd. If it's a matter of finding alien items or implants that augment what minimal abilities are in humans and the other races. That's rather different. And of course limitations on what can be achieved with psi are good for balance and story, just make sure they stay consistent.

Also I'm pretty sure those breathing devices are in all the aliens, at least all the mostly organic ones. That only rules out respiratory vectors though. Darts and contact gas are still options.

[Anarch Cassius]

I'm not gonna spoil you... but play until you've captured a Corrupter and done the research that proceeds from that. Some of what you want appears done and/or in the works.

Also remember there's the Psi system from X-com to use a a template, as well as the work of other X-com clones. I think it will be a fully fleshed out system and very interesting. I can think of several interesting powers off the top of my head. Really I think the more kinds of stuff that can fit interesting together the better and Psi will have good interaction with morale, detection, TUs, control and so on. It can handle interesting mechanics that might be hard to explain with more mundane tech.

More linking to the geoscape would be great. Try to think of things Psi can do for the Geoscape since I'm pretty sure it's going to be included. Maybe you need to place amplifiers on the map like Radar dishes if you want to have reasonable psi power for battlescape in that area. Just a thought of the top of my head.

[Anarch Cassius]

Eheh. Of course Fallout should be the model. Unless UFOAI encourages people to make a Fallout clone with modern textures! It would just be tremendous.
It's true Fallout Tactics was a bit of disapointing for me too, but not only for the bug question. In my opinion, it was too much war action oriented. And after hours of playing, I felt disgusted by all this body dismantling... just as this silly Fallout 3.
The only thing I would be pleased to see introduced in UFOAI as it was in Fallout for the battlescape part, would be the clear notion of weight when carrying heavy stuff and the exploding mines stuff  (just not pulled to a gore level)

The others were nearly as gorey but Tactics but you in an actual military role and a questionable one at that. I think part of the point was to make you wonder who the good guys were if anyone. I actually liked Tactics nearly as much as 1 and 2 I just wish it had gotten more time in development. There are a lot of minor issues, like how Mount Cheyenne (which nuked to high heaven) isn't radioactive and of course the lack of dialog options. There was supposed to be another FT set in Florida with real dialog and I'm sad it never got made.

Frankly I'd like to see a lot of things from Tactics in UFO AI and I'm interested in the Fallout clone idea as a mod. I was actually thinking maybe take some aspects from X-com Apocalypse and combine the genres. I have an artist friend who's also very interested but we're both pretty busy.

Things I'd like to see from FT:
Prone stance
Mines (planned I hear)
Performance Enhancing Drugs
Vehicles?
More skills
A Stealth and Detection system
Critical Hits and Aiming at body areas
Perks and Traits
Point-buy multiplayer (also planned)

Weight is implemented in 2.5 and shaping up nicely. I like the system better than Fallout's simply requiring a certain strength for a certain weapon.

[Triaxx2]

I like more combat oriented games, like Fallout Tactics as much as I like the RPG versions. Unlike some people that complain that it's 'not a real fallout' I accept that it's just a different genre in the same world. The same with Icewind Dale to Baldur's Gate.

As long as you focus on the combat, and don't try to jam too much story into the parts that shouldn't have it, that's fine.

[Anarch Cassius]

Oh you should see the 2.5 MedKits. 2.4 makes Fallout Medkits look weak... 2.5 makes them look overpowered. Any solid hit inflicts a status wound and bleeding damage and Medkits only heal a couple points. It's a very harsh but a lot of fun. Do note however that Medkits can heal grazes and other minor damage even if you're not bleeding. You can heal people once after they receieve damage or until they stop bleeding, whichever takes longer. So at best you can counter minor grazes and make up for a little more than bleeding damage.

I don't think I know any game of this sort that's dared to come so close to realistic in terms of combat and damage. It's often not a question of getting them back in this fight but ensuring they see the next one.

I don't think certain concepts require "adult" only labels. You're better off showing kids what things are like by dealing with them then trying to pretend it doesn't exist. I think the games that let you do evil things and kill children and such are actually better at teaching morals because you can try out the concept in a safe environmental and realize how lame it would be. Nothing like killing an entire town, realizing they don't respawn and you no longer have anywhere to sell items. Of course there need to be reasonable in game consequences, over the top games like Grand Theft Auto don't really work like this.

Still, I'm not sure the Drugs would fit the setting as nicely as they did Fallout. Phalanx seems to be genuinely concerned with the welfare of its soldiers and injecting them with massive doses of chemicals during battle isn't good in the long term.

On the other hand there's one I missed from FT that does fit. Dogs. Dogs seem to come and go from warfare. In ancient times they were big, Napoleonic warfare (which gets my vote for most absurd) ruled them out, then we saw them a bit in the World Wars and out again for the Cold War and Vietnam, but now you seem them in use again more and more. The alien war would still have a use for them if the Stealth system was in and it wasn't about pure LOS. Dogs would be fast and excellent scouts but harder to armor and only useful in combat as a last resort.

They probably need a good stealth system and hidden bombs and stuff to be truly awesome but maybe when that day comes. And if dogs don't seem up to the rigors of the aliens war, well it's 2084 and they may well be from a genetically enhanced breed.

I like you're vehicle idea. A bit like what they did outside battle in FT. Of course for IN battle there are going to be some kind of support craft, UGVs, based on concepts from X-com. I don't know much about this system really but I could see it making BattleScape vehicles a possibility. I also wouldn't worry about space, aircraft are among the largest war vehicles so a space that can fit the dropship could fit most ground vehicles as well.

As for the rest. I doubt know if Bethesda (they just beat Interplay in a lawsuit over this only to apparently sit on the franchise rights) would be down, but you can't copyright a game mechanic. This means we can do the same things but we can't have "Deathclaws", sort of like how UFO has Taman and not Sectoids. I was thinking a hybrid setting in which the Earth had technically won an alien war but with the loss of most cities and alien lifeforms forming their own ecologies in parts of the planet.

One thing I learned about Fallout Tactics is that apparently it was rushed to publication once the first playable version was done but before all the final polish got in. The backlash it got was because people wanted Fallout 3 and most in retrospect agreed it's good for what it is. I put it a bit behind 1 and 2 not because of genre but because it never got the finishing touches it was meant to. It's a good game even so, I just wish it had gotten more attention and the sequel that was supposed to use dialog.

[Triaxx2]

Hey, I don't mind talking things out in  peaceable manner if I can, but if they're shooting at me, I'm negotiating with the help of Messer's Heckler and Koch. Or possibly as much of the Springfield Armory as I can manage.

---

My thought for vehicles was to basically have the drop ship be a weapons system. The way the Blackhawk has Mini-guns mounted just behind the cockpit, or Huey's have them out the door. The drop ship isn't just a static piece of equipment, but it's a completely useful weapons system. So I can have IT use a full auto burst in the direction of the aliens instead of having to have the dedicated Machine Gunner do it in the open because he can't shoot and sprint to cover.

[Triaxx2]

I still play Deus Ex. Haven't played the new one, but it's on the list.

[ShipIt]

... try to talk with an alien during the battlescape...

ftw, NO! We try to save humanity. Lets just kill ´em all! Or, even better, capture them alive and cut them in pieces in our labs. 

[Gary Bonn]

I think psionics etc, could add huge depth and would make this appeal to more people. I would find it fascinating if, for instance, one of my troop turned against me and I had to work out what to do about it. On a wider scale, I can see jobs for lone hit-men/women to eliminate government leaders etc, who have been absorbed into the alien mind.

[Wolls]

Hello all,

I open here a discussion on a subject i think very crucial at long term. I read a lot of considerations about equiping aliens with psyionic technology. My first reaction is, it is too easy because the initial postulate at UFO is that aliens are just some kind of warriors. They dont pay too much attention on manipulating minds or so on, they come armoured and with things that hurts (eventually just kerblade) or hideous pets (spiders...). In this case I find no sense to melt this sense of fighting with psyionic stuff. One other way to say that is to put the things further : if they could psyionize people, why damn dont they use this capability to controle earth countries governements and avoid alien losses?

as an example of a purer psionic alien attack this makes echoes in my mind of Mr. Grey from Dreamcatcher.

  I was trying to think of some poison/venom applications, like for the bloodspider while attacking they might inject a necrotic or venomous neurotoxin that would be used to further damage/incapacitate human prey. Of course this may introduce some unwanted redundacy, a Psionic version would be something like 'enervation' but there are other options.

  From a more practical POV, given that human bodies aren't meant for disassembly (don't know if its scientific, but thats my view ) it seems likely that the blood/muscle tissue/grisely bits might at some point 'clog' or interfere with the Bloodspiders ability to rend. So perhaps an Alien synthetic or Biological(bacterial?) agent is employed that quickly breaks down organic matter, allowing the bloodspider to efficiently go about business.  Note: This would apply only to the Combat class, the standard version has its own mission.