Development > Artwork
hovernet temporary model 01?
sirg:
I like a good debate :) Browsing the forum, I got the idea that because people who came with ideas don't know almost nothing about the story and realistic technology used by aliens, propose all kinds of wild concepts, like I'm doing, including flying saucers and anti-grav.
As you might know, anti-gravity isn't such a big impossibility, there are many experiments, some controversial but still fact, including diamagnetism or real gravity "screening". Those experiments require superconductors, very strong electromagnetic fields and lots of power, and because of that little progress is being made.
--- Quote ---lthough we are still debating the exact nature of physics (einstein's general relativity vs quantum mechanics) we do know a lot about the physics of this reality.
--- End quote ---
I think debating these issues shows exactly how little we know about physics (almost nothing). We have some puzzle pieces, that's all. Scientists are debating about the multiverse and extra dimensions, branes and ptjer exotic theories. Proving these concepts real (like branes) would show us exactly how much we have until we understand at least 10% of the universe.
Returning to the subject, I would add just a last comment, that my impression is that the actual storyline and tech concepts are a bottle neck for creative, original and fun ideas and concepts. Maybe you have finished the story to soon, because there are so many people who still want to come with ideas. Many of the game features are in testing or aren't working yet. I'm not saying it's bad that you have a story, maybe it's a very good story, but for the moment I'm a bit sad that many things won't get into the game.
And speaking of realism - psionic warfare doesn't sound like cut from reality to me, but we all know it's fun, and there is no real X-Com based game without it... :P
Winter:
--- Quote from: "sirg" ---Returning to the subject, I would add just a last comment, that my impression is that the actual storyline and tech concepts are a bottle neck for creative, original and fun ideas and concepts. Maybe you have finished the story to soon, because there are so many people who still want to come with ideas. Many of the game features are in testing or aren't working yet. I'm not saying it's bad that you have a story, maybe it's a very good story, but for the moment I'm a bit sad that many things won't get into the game.
And speaking of realism - psionic warfare doesn't sound like cut from reality to me, but we all know it's fun, and there is no real X-Com based game without it... :P
--- End quote ---
So if someone made a fantasy plasma gun for, say, Rainbow Spear, or any other realistic military game, you would be sad that it didn't get included in the official game?
That's the kind of analogy you're drawing. You insist that the story (and, by extension, every piece of realistic design in the game) is wrong for the model, rather than the model being wrong for the story. That is pretty insane in my opinion. Do you want to change out the current guns for ridiculously oversized cartoons as well? Maybe switch the soldiers to anime characters? There are certainly SOME people out there that would want to, and if we try to cater to everyone's wishes, nothing would get done -- ever.
The fact is that we have been working steadily towards a clearly-defined goal, the goal being a game that is both as plausible and as fun as possible, and the hovernet model represents a deviation from that goal. It is so bad that its inclusion is tantamount to abandoning the goal of plausible design. If we abandon the goal, then we abandon the entire concept of the game that interested me and many others in the first place.
You don't make bad compromises that make the game less plausible and consistent -- thereby breaking suspension of disbelief -- just because they're convenient. That is what's called bad game design. You make a concept and you stick with it.
BTAxis and I were asked to make a concept, and this is what we have. If you don't want it, we can take our storyline and leave.
Regards,
Winter
sirg:
From what I know, Rainbow Six isn't SF, and does not include aliens... but in a game with SF elements, almost anything can happen. Anyway, a plasma gun can be fun in any game, including chess :) , but please anyone, don't steal this idea!
I agree that you have to be consistent, X-Com was exactly just that, ... but I'm not going to argue anymore.
So, forget everything I've written since my registration. Probably all the cool ideas are already in the design so, why bother.
And none is saying that doesn't want your story... but we know only bits an pieces of it.. or the intro. So were just impatient and enthusiastic.
kaeau:
hi all
so, there is a discussion launched i didnt expect, but okay, discussing things is never a bad habit. ok, so far as i read it, it seems that things have been settled in from a toplevel, and well, i ll explain some important things to you now, especially winter. here we go.
* look and feel: are you familiar with that expression? the look and feel of an artwork, design, whatever is the emotional representation of the shape, the material, the effects and so on. if you have a shape in front of you, this form is telling you a story immediatly. it is stimulating your inner archetypes, things we all share in common. we instantly know, if a shape looks elegant, brutal, cunning, friendly, and, well, foreign, strange and so on. the form transports a feeling.
* visual categorization / design guideline:
with a settled "look and feel", you can bundle artworks into visual categories. those are instantly representating the affiliation of e.g. a model. by developing a designline, kind of a red strand, which is involved in every design of a defined category (e.g. "the aliens"), the player gets the impression, that there is actual a difference between the factions, in this case between the aliens and the humans. if alien technology looks and operates the same way, like it does in human terms, you drop an entire possibility for having an impressiv and strange visual guideline, and, more important, for transporting the feeling by look, that these things actually did come from outer space.
you can find good up to perfect examples for such design guidelines in famous settings, from lord of the rings to starwars or startrek. you instantly recognize a startrek ship for being not only from startrek, but if you have a watch some episodes, even by which race the ship is built. - (perhaps i have to add, that i dont like startrek personally, but it is important to put away the personal taste, it differs anytime anyway from person to person, neither do i personallyn like the way the ships look in startrek. but i appriciate the afford, the designers put into the look itself and how well it works) - you will recognize an ork weapon in lord of the rings simply from the shape, also an elves design, because the are following a principle. and this is important to make the bigger ensemble not only more beautiful, but throughout such similarities, the race, the faction, the parts of the story becomes believable.
in companies it is called CI (cooperate identity), in works of imagination like stories and movies, games and so on it is a question of good or bad design. so, there must be a CI, or otherwise it is just thrown together and it becomes a bad and bland mix. lets call it alien indentity, AI.
* clichés
stereotypes are very useful, too. we all have the predefined stimuli in us. for example, and this is one of the most obvious ones, alien beeings, which look like greys and flying saucers. if we see a shape, which is very general an flying disc, it seems instantly foreign and alien. i say in very general ways, because the shape itself doesnt have to be just the used ufodisc, we are familiar with. if it follows the directive just very very approximatly, it is appealing.
sure, you dont have to use such clichés, they are a tool, nothing more.
but here, in ufo:ai, there is a break. the aliens look almost exactly like the used general alien design, but you want the rest to behave different. this is not fitting together, it doesnt feel right.
if you want to differ from the cliche, which you arnt, you have to invent something really different. consider my example of humans vs. humans in a near future of solar system colonisation. or make the aliens work different, mechanical invaders, which think they have to rescue all our pentiums and amds from slavery (a missunderstanding, for sure), or a symbiosis between giant slugs and telepatic worms, which attack, because two legged beings are considered as blasphemy in their society, anyway. these examples are just sucked out of the fingers, and for sure it needs far more time to develop such a setting.
* technology differences:
ok, as far as this discussion goes, the aliens should have the same tech level in general like the humans have. ok. thats a different approach and, well, i appriciate the affords. but: it doesnt need the aliens anymore. for me it seems like the alien invasion is just an excuse, again you are using a stereotype (alien invasion) and mixing it all up with something different. for example, if the techs should really be similar in general, a storyline with e.g. a human colony in solar sytem, attacking the earth because of political or cultural differences would be far more appealing in case, the two factions share the same evolutionary standards. for me, and please for that let me define, it is just my opinion, but one, which i consider as elaborated.
and now for my favorite:
* realism!:
realism is fine. mostly. but at points where realism acts as a break and stops, metaphorically, the motion, it is a bad thing. so, let me define what we have:
** an alien invasion from outer space
** psi warfare
** mankind in the near future, united in big power blocks
** spaceships, travelling faster then light
and so on. this all isnt very realistic, or, in other word, nothing we have encountered yet.
hell, it is a good thing, that imagination leaves room for those, and, in my opinion, for even more. IF such things are possible, why not even more? because a hand full of students of aerodynamics will tell their friends: "hey, you know, this shape isnt very flyable.." never. its a game. its NOT realistic in first instance, jsut because of the setting itself. if realism acts as fun-killer, because everything unusual, or everything we are not used to in reallife, is kicked out, realism is out of place. and the look and feel, the design guidelines, i was talking before, are tons more important then a so called realistic approach. dont forget, im talking about the particular alien invasion here, if the setting is different, this point is partwise antiquated. but for ufo : ai, is persists. the aliens should be foreign, strange, different, but with banging them down to something very familiar, the stay one thing: humans. and thats bad.
glowing green lights in the texture, and some spikes wont help very much here.
is allright, if you want to design the human side of the story most realistic, well, we can define the realism here, we know, how our technology works and how it looks like. but for a strange species from outer space, we cant make such decision about WHAT is actual realistic here. if everything should be "real" in terms of our horizon, of our level of science, change the setting, otherwise it wont fit together.
* target audience:
ok, as you perhaps know, im running my own company for animation, design, industrial design, production design and so on since 6 years now, and there are quite many things i havent really realized, when i founded nathan : inc. for example, the importance of the target audience. if you are doning something for a greater public, you are automatically aiming for a particular group, your target audience. and, to be successful, you should aim good. here, in ufo ai, besides the xcom players, your target audience are those, who expect aliens to be alien.
yes, i know, it is no commercial project, but anyway, there are competitors, too, and success isnt something, you dont want, is it? so, my advice is at least to consider, what your players like to see.
again, this goes for the setting. if you have something different, then you can be far more unique, but an alien invasion and a xcom style game isnt unique at all. but you cant make it something special by putting the strange creatures from outer space on a level, which we can explain with nowadays physics and styles.
-> and now for something different: in the wiki, there is NO information about the storyline, almost none about defined guidelines, what the aliens are, how they work, besides the standard alien stereotypes which the antareas (sorry if misstyped), being the masters and others being the pets.
how can you expect, that someone throwns hour after hour on thinking, planning, drawing and designing something for the greater good for nothing, and then kick it back with words like "not in storyline, cant be" or "i wont accept in any terms", without revealing the concept? sorry, i have to say this, and that is not the way, a free project works.
and, in addition, you cant expect everything fitting your personal taste in visual ways, you can only do that, if you are a client and paying for the time, the designer is investing. then it is your right to act so, and its correct, for sure. but as long you are dealing with people, who are investing their precious time because of enthusiasm, such a behavior is not a team play.
i dont want to spill bad blood, and sure you can use the models, i already transfered like the chaingun + ammo, shotgun, buildings, and so on. but designing aliens which feel like something transformed from human to anywhere in space, isnt the thing im looking for. i didnt know that in first instance, because, and thats my criticism, the info is either hidden somewhere or simply not online at the ufo:ai page. creating a look in such restrictions doesnt work with me in general. thats boring. sorry.
so, my plea is to put the whole concept in the wiki, make easy-to-navigate links to particular parts of it like technology of aliens, what you never would accept designwise, etc, so another creative designer KNOWS that, before taking out the pencils and hook him / herself onto it.
pls note again, that this (i think constructive) criticism isnt a personal flamewar, a thing someone must mention on the world wide web so nobody is agonized, its my opinion, mixed with my point of view on design, my experience. if everything is strictly settled in, then its allright with me.
ka
Winter:
*sigh* Okay. Let me take it point by point again.
--- Quote from: "kaeau" ---* look and feel: are you familiar with that expression?
--- End quote ---
Ah, condescension.
--- Quote ---the look and feel of an artwork, design, whatever is the emotional representation of the shape, the material, the effects and so on. if you have a shape in front of you, this form is telling you a story immediatly. it is stimulating your inner archetypes, things we all share in common. we instantly know, if a shape looks elegant, brutal, cunning, friendly, and, well, foreign, strange and so on. the form transports a feeling.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I don't see how this bolsters your argument. It is more than possible to make plausible things that still look alien.
--- Quote ---* visual categorization / design guideline:
you can find good up to perfect examples for such design guidelines in famous settings, from lord of the rings to starwars or startrek.
--- End quote ---
Do you see what you did there? All 3 settings you name are the least plausible example in their genres (with the possible exception of LOTR). In fact, Star Wars and Star Trek are known for their laughably bad science and design. The only thing they have going for them is the look. As several people have pointed out, we're trying to do more here than just the look.
--- Quote ---* technology differences:
ok, as far as this discussion goes, the aliens should have the same tech level in general like the humans have.
--- End quote ---
No. The aliens are significantly more advanced than humans. Their technology just doesn't violate the laws of physics when it's not absolutely necessary. In story terms, it's easier to believe in something that only makes a few concessions to problematic technology than something you know is wrong and/or impossible, like for example old Buck Rogers episodes. People might enjoy the innocence or sheer badness of a Buck Rogers episode, but they would never consider it good fiction.
--- Quote ---* realism!:
realism is fine. mostly. but at points where realism acts as a break and stops, metaphorically, the motion, it is a bad thing. so, let me define what we have:
--- End quote ---
Now you try to attack the concept of internal consistency itself. That doesn't work.
--- Quote ---** an alien invasion from outer space
--- End quote ---
This could happen in real life. It's highly unlikely, but it is a nonzero probability.
--- Quote ---** psi warfare
--- End quote ---
A bit more far-fetched, but also a nonzero probability, and the story treats them in a fairly realistic way; notably, the humans themselves don't suddenly develop psi talents due to the alien invasion.
--- Quote ---** mankind in the near future, united in big power blocks
--- End quote ---
So the European Union, the USSR, NATO, do you think they are unrealistic too? Mankind certainly can unite in big power blocks under the right circumstances
--- Quote ---** spaceships, travelling faster then light
--- End quote ---
Also theoretically possible the way we are doing it.
--- Quote ---IF such things are possible, why not even more? because a hand full of students of aerodynamics will tell their friends: "hey, you know, this shape isnt very flyable.." never. its a game. its NOT realistic in first instance, jsut because of the setting itself.
--- End quote ---
Once again, you resort to attacking internal consistency itself. I made the analogy earlier about putting a fantasy weapon into a realistic game; by doing this you put one genre (science-fantasy) into another (modern). In the case of UFO:AI, we are using the science-fiction genre, not the science-fantasy genre. Mixing them destroys internal consistency and would render the current storyline invalid. That seems like a pretty big sacrifice to make to accomodate a model that doesn't fit the game in the first place.
--- Quote ---if realism acts as fun-killer, because everything unusual, or everything we are not used to in reallife, is kicked out, realism is out of place.
--- End quote ---
It is hard for me to respond to this without calling it paranoid delusion. I have said again and again that it is MORE than possible to design unusual things that are real. Hovercraft, flying wings, flechette guns, tactical high-energy lasers. There are so many wondrous and alien-looking things that actually exist in our world, and yet people completely ignore this.
--- Quote ---and the look and feel, the design guidelines, i was talking before, are tons more important then a so called realistic approach.
--- End quote ---
Only if you think looks and flash are more important than content and consistency. And if that were true, Chronicles of Riddick and a hundred other flashy action films would not have bombed at the box office. You need a good look to catch the player's attention; you need good substance to keep it.
--- Quote ---the aliens should be foreign, strange, different, but with banging them down to something very familiar, the stay one thing: humans. and thats bad.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely. I don't see how that's a point in your favour, however. You can design strange things that are plausible, as you can see in my Bloodspider model.
--- Quote ---glowing green lights in the texture, and some spikes wont help very much here.
--- End quote ---
We don't want glowing green lights or spikes anyway. Spikes waste material and serve no function.
--- Quote ---is allright, if you want to design the human side of the story most realistic, well, we can define the realism here, we know, how our technology works and how it looks like. but for a strange species from outer space, we cant make such decision about WHAT is actual realistic here.
--- End quote ---
There are some things that are true no matter where in the galaxy you are and what you know. For example, spheres are the strongest possible geometric shape. Cylinders come in second, which is -- among other things -- why aircraft have cylindrical fuselages. Giving a machine lots of surface area with little internal space forces you to slap on lots of unnecessary armour and gives you no place to put things. Human or alien, these points NEVER CHANGE.
--- Quote ---* target audience:
ok, as you perhaps know, im running my own company for animation, design, industrial design, production design and so on since 6 years now, and there are quite many things i havent really realized, when i founded nathan : inc. for example, the importance of the target audience. if you are doning something for a greater public, you are automatically aiming for a particular group, your target audience. and, to be successful, you should aim good. here, in ufo ai, besides the xcom players, your target audience are those, who expect aliens to be alien.
yes, i know, it is no commercial project, but anyway, there are competitors, too, and success isnt something, you dont want, is it? so, my advice is at least to consider, what your players like to see.
again, this goes for the setting. if you have something different, then you can be far more unique, but an alien invasion and a xcom style game isnt unique at all. but you cant make it something special by putting the strange creatures from outer space on a level, which we can explain with nowadays physics and styles.
--- End quote ---
Your theory is flawed, and trying to name your credentials doesn't bolster your point. I myself have worked in the game industry for 6 years as a writer and game designer. It's appeal to authority, it doesn't work.
Now, as for your point. If we slavishly follow the same principles as X-COM, our game will end up no different than X-COM, and it will have nothing new or interesting to draw in players who could be spending their time on the actual old games or on any of the new commercial X-COM clones coming out. A realistic X-COM game has never been done before, and it will be a major point in attracting attention.
--- Quote ----> and now for something different: in the wiki, there is NO information about the storyline, almost none about defined guidelines, what the aliens are, how they work, besides the standard alien stereotypes which the antareas (sorry if misstyped), being the masters and others being the pets.
--- End quote ---
This is true, and a lot of the UFOpaedia has not settled to a finished form. It is our policy not to put unfinished material on the wiki, to avoid giving people the wrong impression and to avoid people translating things that might change.
--- Quote ---how can you expect, that someone throwns hour after hour on thinking, planning, drawing and designing something for the greater good for nothing, and then kick it back with words like "not in storyline, cant be" or "i wont accept in any terms", without revealing the concept?
--- End quote ---
You never asked to see the concept, which I have freely shown to anyone who expressed an interest. And do you realise how many hours I've put into the storyline that you want to discard? I have spent nearly three months trying to get the entire UFOpaedia into shape, whilst trying to keep up with my non-UFO:AI work as well. Three months. So far we've finished maybe a quarter of the work.
--- Quote ---and, in addition, you cant expect everything fitting your personal taste in visual ways, you can only do that, if you are a client and paying for the time, the designer is investing. then it is your right to act so, and its correct, for sure. but as long you are dealing with people, who are investing their precious time because of enthusiasm, such a behavior is not a team play.
--- End quote ---
It has never been a matter of personal taste. I like by far most of the models you've made. It's a matter that in the universe you and I live in, your creation could never fly or hover or be anything more than a nice sculpture. As a machine, it would be extremely inefficient, and no intelligent alien would use it.
--- Quote ---i dont want to spill bad blood, and sure you can use the models, i already transfered like the chaingun + ammo, shotgun, buildings, and so on. but designing aliens which feel like something transformed from human to anywhere in space, isnt the thing im looking for.
--- End quote ---
That's not what I'm looking for either. We want the aliens to be different just as much as you. We simply don't want them to make huge engineering mistakes in how they design their technology.
--- Quote ---so, my plea is to put the whole concept in the wiki, make easy-to-navigate links to particular parts of it like technology of aliens, what you never would accept designwise, etc, so another creative designer KNOWS that, before taking out the pencils and hook him / herself onto it.
--- End quote ---
I admit that the current information handling hasn't been perfect, and for that, I do apologise. We've been trying to avoid giving people the impression that the storyline information is no longer subject to change. However, putting everyting on the wiki would also have other negative effects, as we don't want to spoil the story for non-designers.
I know this isn't much comfort, but you must remember that not every model you make will be suitable for the game, just like I've written articles that we later realised we can't use. I've already had to make several sweeping changes and rewrites to my UFO:AI material to fit the game. In my work experience there's not much we can do about this, it happens on any project, commercial or otherwise.
However, I'm open to increasing coordination and cooperation. If you'd like to be able to reach me for feedback on any of your models or to read/comment on the storyline, please come to the UFO:AI IRC channel. I'm there almost all the time, and more than open for discussion.
Regards,
Winter
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version