Storyline suggestion

[TrashMan]

So, you use the cheesiet moveis, movies that are used as examples of everything that is wrong with Holywood (Transformers) as a example of what UFO:AI should aim at??
 

What's the point of putting so much trough and effort into the weapons and items and descirptins, to the point if re-workign the description of a storage facilti several times because it doens't sound relaistic enough?
What's the point of rejecting heavy pistols, miniguns nad other weapons because tey're "not realistic enough" if you're gonna ignore realism alltogether when it comes to aliens?

Hekc, I could come up with several more plausible storylines and alien backgrounds in 5 minutes.

How about the aliens being a loose colation of various Lords, all controling mini-empores of their own trough psi-dominance?
Any maybe, some aliens (like Taman) were more sucesfull at resisting htem than others, to the point of still having an active resistance? Mayb the lords occasionaly clashing between themselves?

As it is, the inteligence of aliens tied to numbers isn't in any way tied to game mechanics. So you can eaily drop that whole aspect. Or not. You can easily come up with alternate exxplanations.
Like the Psi Lords (TM) mental influence weakening with range, so they require other powerfull psi-users are sub-commadners/slaves to use them as amplifiers. In essence it boils down to the smae thing - the more enemies there are, the stronger the Psi Lords signal and hte better their control.
You could even have killing some of the sub-commanders trigger some other aliesn to go berserk (like synapse tyranids in WH40K)

[geisthund]

Cough. "I12believe". Looks around at the other crazies in the room.

Heh. No but seriously - telepathy is only "magical" and slightly frightening because it's unknown. There's no science behind it, and we can't see how it works (unlike, say, gravity)

Faced with telepathic, mind controlling viruses the player's mind gets messed with. (pun intended)

When the hordes of humans under viral control start appearing armed with everything from machine guns to dinner forks... well I know I'd be affected.

But if you break it down - if telepathy turns out to be something mundane, say rapid pheremonal signals triggering some primal part of our brain to obey certain preset commands (a bit like stephen king's horror novel on cellphones hard-resetting the brain and turning people into killers) then it's a bit less scary and a lot more useful as a weapon to fight the enemy with, right?

Its the same effect psionics had on us when we played Xcom. It was scary (and then when we harnessed it for ourselves, kind of fun)

[geisthund]

I remember the old X com games actually had that -- when you killed a "commander" ranked alien the others took a hit in fear, and some just cowered. Some, when they went berserk actually shot their own "friends"... (reducing their collective morale even more, and making for some giggly moments, especially when they were holding a blaster launcher...)

It might be interesting to try (if the mechanics allow) to implement something similar... when ranked enemy aliens die, others on the field go rogue (eg human converts) until morale in the alien sub commanders is restored enabling control to be re-established. (eg killing or maiming an x-com operative)

the psi lords idea sounds a bit like stargate's premise...

Also, as a complete aside - who says the humans have to win this game? The storyline doesn't look like it's been completed...

For instance, we could be playing through the game as a historical record of what happened in the last great battle for universal dominance of the alien confederation.

Or if this were a commercial venture, we'd fight tooth and claw to the climatic end game only to be overwhelmed by numbers, to be continued next episode...

If any of you remember homeworld (the game) - in some levels benign aliens appeared to trade tech or form alliances (the enemy of my enemy is your enemy)

I reckon that the "reality" of the storyline isn't actually as important as how well you execute it - provided it doesn't involve something completely implausible like super intelligent bikini blondes with katanas or something. :p

If as much thought and effort is put into crafting the backstory as into the game mechanics, physics and graphics, I reckon you'd have a huge winner here.

[ShipIt]

The story behind the game is very good, imho. Thats why I have to agree with op, it could be used to bring more atmosphere into the game by using it for e.g. cutscenes in game.

However, talking ´s cheap.

[geisthund]

It would seem I finished off the alien base without completing the tech tree - for some reason research options sprang up although I was just building my herakles transport (or is this a trigger?)

anyway I've now seen the entry about the virus. There is a problem with the credibility behind the science of this.

Just to point out - a large multicellular organism in the bloodstream is - as far as we know now with current science - a bacteria, and not a virus.

A virus would typically not appear as cellular, since outside cells they are generally just genetic material in a capsid. This would lend credibility to the scientists initially missing the diagnosis and calling the "extra" DNA a contaminant. Viruses only become active inside cells after introducing their genetic material - they then "hijack" the machinary of the bodys own cells to replicate their tiny particles, and burst the cell when they're done (generally), releasing their progeny into the blood. Hence little evidence of infection, unless someone was looking real hard for them.

If they (scientists) saw big huge bacterial looking things lurking around looking completely different to present, unicellular prokaryotic / eukaryotic bacteria they'd probably freak out and declare a state of emergency.

Alternatively another explanation that would fit would be the viruses having the appearance of normal human cells, but containing strange DNA using a different bit codon. That would be... pretty interesting, and hard to detect since we wouldn't be expecting it.

Another cool idea would be to have the aliens in the form of some new form of infective agent, eg a prion, that we couldn't detect for initially. Although sentient prions is really stretching the limits of rationality.

[TrashMan]

Heh. No but seriously - telepathy is only "magical" and slightly frightening because it's unknown. There's no science behind it, and we can't see how it works (unlike, say, gravity)

Not necessarily. Either it has SOME grounding in science, or it is purely magical, and it being purely magical doesn't fit with the rest of the game. Like for example, the basics of conservation of energy. Where doese the power come from? Does ti have range? If so, then it emits some kind of signal or another. How do the individual viruses interact with eachother?

For one, naurons are larger and more complex than viruses, and are interconnected. The brain is a single, complex structure with fixed pathways.

Viruses aren't connected. A virus moves around. It's a simple construct and it's hard to believe it could be able to generate any signal at all (and it would have to).

You're opening a whoel cna of wormd, tons of question with no answers. Unnecessarily.

Comparing a virus to a neuron is apples and oranges.

When the hordes of humans under viral control start appearing armed with everything from machine guns to dinner forks... well I know I'd be affected.

Agreed. But it's not necessary for the virus to be sentient for that to work.

Its the same effect psionics had on us when we played Xcom. It was scary (and then when we harnessed it for ourselves, kind of fun)

So why not tak a lesson from X-Com and do it like it did?

[Nutter]

Come to think of it, a bacterial infection might've been a better idea. It probably got tagged as a 'virus' because it sounds cooler.
Depending on who you ask, due to their distinct lack of metabolic functions viruses even count as 'living', for fucks sake!

[geisthund]

Not necessarily. Either it has SOME grounding in science, or it is purely magical, and it being purely magical doesn't fit with the rest of the game.

that was precisely my point. The boundaries of "purely magical" shift once you gain a scientific understanding. What you don't understand now, and consider purely magical (telepathy) becomes less disturbing once a scientific explanation is found (my imaginary construct of rapid pheremonal transmission, to explain the observation of communication "through the air")

Consider also that to someone from victorian england, most of what happens today is magic -- air travel would appear to break the laws of physics to them. Magic, most foul.

Of course if you're going to stay stuck in the present, with a 2012 understanding of science and refuse to suspend disbelief for an instant... then sure, it's ludicrous to suggest that things will be different in 2084, and telepathy is patently absurd.

If anything, I was surprised when I first played the game that the conventional weapons looked so... ordinary. I'd have expected more developments in 2084 - gauss technology. linear accelerators. mini nuclear power packs. etc. Hell even high-efficiency solar rechargeable laser rifles that almost never run out of juice, given enough turns to recharge...

Like for example, the basics of conservation of energy. Where doese the power come from? Does ti have range? If so, then it emits some kind of signal or another. How do the individual viruses interact with eachother?

You do realize that when dealing with biological systems, the power ultimately comes from the sun?
I would assume that the "power" for the viruses to communicate comes from biochemical pathways.

Even a virus (a conventional one) is "powered" - phages have to change configuration to inject their DNA into cells. It takes power to replicate DNA and assemble new viral particles. The new viral particles result in the cell rupturing - this takes power too. Some viruses exocystose and leave the cell intact. This takes power too. Is this magic? Or is it the viruses harnessing the "power" of the host?

Does it have range? Some kind of signal? are you talking about within the body between viral particles, or without, between individual human beings. If the latter, pheremones could be the signal.

If the former, there are all sorts of chemical messengers within cells. G proteins and enzymes form a cascade of intracellular communication. Between cells adjacent to each other there can be electrical junctions, and communication could be electrical. These are called gap junctions. The body does this all the time. It's how your heart cells communicate with each other so that your heart contracts synchronously, for instance.

Between cells at more remote locations hormones act as messenger molecules. When they reach their target cells, they bind to cell surface receptors and effect changes through second messenger systems.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/moaction/surface.html

For one, neurons are larger and more complex than viruses, and are interconnected. The brain is a single, complex structure with fixed pathways.

that last is debatable. The brain comprises many anatomical structures, some postulated to be older in terms of evolution than others - your cerebellar cortex, for instance. The neuronal pathways are not fixed in children - children exhibit a fair amount of plasticity. If you destroy pathways in kids they are able to rewire up functions using alternative pathways. Most of your brain will never be used (umm not yours in particular... just human brains) -- many of the potential pathways are wasted. In adults the plasticity falls off with age.

Viruses aren't connected. A virus moves around. It's a simple construct and it's hard to believe it could be able to generate any signal at all (and it would have to).

I can believe that they could generate signals if they exploited the hosts signalling pathways. It just takes for me to suspend skepticism for an instant.

Bacterial cells aren't connected. Bacteria move around. They are unicellular constructs.

Yet when they congregate they form biofilms. The bacteria at the base of the biofilms switch on different genes to the ones on top. They effectively start behaving as a single entity, with different roles. They ARE communicating with each other - it's just that we don't know how exactly. Bacteria at the bottom concentrate on sticking. Bacteria on top concentrate on breaking away. All for the greater good.

We don' see this in present day viruses. But the proposed virus in this case is sentient -- so... maybe they're behaving like bacteria?

You're opening a whoel cna of wormd, tons of question with no answers. Unnecessarily.

Comparing a virus to a neuron is apples and oranges.

Actually, you made the comparison to neurons. :\

I was writing about Stephen King's book, Cellular. It's well worth the read.

Viruses and neurons are completely different. Neurons are specialized tissue types. Viruses are isolated particles without cellular structure.

The can of worms doesn't come from comparing them - it comes from trying to predict how viruses would communicate with each other. And as you can see - there's plenty of ways for them to do it. Some viruses even LIVE in neurons. (HSV)
Maybe they could exploit interneuronal communication to "talk" to each other...

[TrashMan]

Consider also that to someone from victorian england, most of what happens today is magic -- air travel would appear to break the laws of physics to them. Magic, most foul.

Once you have a scientific methoid and a basic understanding of physics, those kinds of things dwindle.
Today we know some of the most basic laws of the universe - conservation fo energy, thermodynamics, etc..

Of course if you're going to stay stuck in the present, with a 2012 understanding of science and refuse to suspend disbelief for an instant... then sure, it's ludicrous to suggest that things will be different in 2084, and telepathy is patently absurd.

Telpeathy (as it is commonly portrayed) is and allways will be absurd without any grounding in science. HOWEVER, since this is a sci-fi setting, it's one of those acceptable breaks from reality. And since you are breaking away from reality, you might at least try to make it sound not-so-unreal. OR avoid explaining in detail alltogether.

For example - "telepathy" as an organ/part of brain that works like a radio, transmitting and recieving data between memebers of the same species.  That is scientificly plusible. But it isn't the telepathy we're talking about (inter-species, mind-meling, mind-controling, telekinesys and stuff)

If anything, I was surprised when I first played the game that the conventional weapons looked so... ordinary. I'd have expected more developments in 2084 - gauss technology. linear accelerators. mini nuclear power packs. etc. Hell even high-efficiency solar rechargeable laser rifles that almost never run out of juice, given enough turns to recharge...

Frankly, I'd dump the whole storyline in a different time period.. Closer to today.. 202o-30. MAAAAAYBE 2050.
Easy to mod tough - just change a few dates.

I would assume that the "power" for the viruses to communicate comes from biochemical pathways.
Even a virus (a conventional one) is "powered" - phages have to change configuration to inject their DNA into cells. It takes power to replicate DNA and assemble new viral particles. The new viral particles result in the cell rupturing - this takes power too. Some viruses exocystose and leave the cell intact. This takes power too. Is this magic? Or is it the viruses harnessing the "power" of the host?

No, but that's normaly body functions. What about telepathy/telekinesys? Where does that power come from?
More importantly, transmitting any "mind signal" takes power too. It takes a specialized transmitter and reciever (on both ends) for telepathy to work. And both of those inside a virus?

Does it have range? Some kind of signal? are you talking about within the body between viral particles, or without, between individual human beings. If the latter, pheremones could be the signal.

Pheromons are too dman slow and limited.
And to defeat that kind of mind control, all you'd need would be a large fan. Not very indimitating, is it?

We don' see this in present day viruses. But the proposed virus in this case is sentient -- so... maybe they're behaving like bacteria?

It doens't have the size or complexity of a bacteria.
A sentient virus is jsut....too idiotic for words.

Actually, you made the comparison to neurons. :\

No, other poeple did.
Individual virus elements were compared to neurons.

[geisthund]

Once you have a scientific methoid and a basic understanding of physics, those kinds of things dwindle.
Today we know some of the most basic laws of the universe - conservation fo energy, thermodynamics, etc..

yeah we're on the same page.

Telpeathy (as it is commonly portrayed) is and allways will be absurd without any grounding in science. HOWEVER, since this is a sci-fi setting, it's one of those acceptable breaks from reality. And since you are breaking away from reality, you might at least try to make it sound not-so-unreal. OR avoid explaining in detail alltogether.

Agreed on that last.

For example - "telepathy" as an organ/part of brain that works like a radio, transmitting and recieving data between memebers of the same species.  That is scientificly plusible. But it isn't the telepathy we're talking about (inter-species, mind-meling, mind-controling, telekinesys and stuff)

Oh. It's not? Oops.
Yes, arguing that the brain is in itself an extracorporeal transmitter and actuator is just plain stupid and violates physics. But well, maybe it's the source of the signal that is effected by an actuator.

Such as, I think - I want this orange. My hand reaches out (actuator) and grabs the orange.

Frankly, I'd dump the whole storyline in a different time period.. Closer to today.. 202o-30. MAAAAAYBE 2050.
Easy to mod tough - just change a few dates.

Heh... I'd have put it a century later. It would give more leeway for introducing cool stuff. In terms of storyline, and gadgetry.

No, but that's normaly body functions. What about telepathy/telekinesys? Where does that power come from?
More importantly, transmitting any "mind signal" takes power too. It takes a specialized transmitter and reciever (on both ends) for telepathy to work. And both of those inside a virus?

... the power would come from normal body functions!
Put it this way, the virus wants to replicate. It does this. How? It has no power source stored within itself - it uses the bodys own power source to achieve its aims, by subjugating the cellular machinery. The whole DNA as the central code for the processor thing.

Likewise... the power for whatever... new function we observe, be it moving an apple with your brain or transmitting faxes from your left eye... could come from the same idea. Some enzyme cascade happens. ATP gets used up. The power isn't the issue. The issue is ---- how the heck is the action realized? How do you send a fax out your eye when your eye can't send signals. That is the true crux of what you're grappling with -- how, if there's no mechanism for effecting telepathy anywhere on the viral particle, can it communicate with... (err what was your issue with it again? communicating with the host, or with other viral particles?)

Pheromons are too dman slow and limited.
And to defeat that kind of mind control, all you'd need would be a large fan. Not very indimitating, is it?

Wouldn't that be cool? The ultimate shield against psionics is... a fan. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I do't think they would necessarily be slow. They just wouldn't be instantaneous. Do you need "mind control" to happen acutely, or would insiduousness be better? I rather think the latter... make you think you're still in control, when in effect you're slowly swaying towards another decision without knowing why.

It doens't have the size or complexity of a bacteria.
A sentient virus is jsut....too idiotic for words.

I guess it really depends on how well the code within the virus is written, right? If its an incredibly complex code, that needs a capsid, say 10 times the size of a normal virus -- then it's vaguely plausible that the virus (once it is transcribed into the host cell) becomes sentient, once its in your cells.

The problem I have with that is... it won't remember a damn thing. Memories are not encoded in cells.

So perhaps rather than a sentient virus, a virus that codes for receptivity in the host to external control via a certain signal. Sort of like a backdoor entry (no pun intended) into the host...

No, other poeple did.
Individual virus elements were compared to neurons.

Ah. didn't know about that.
Yes the comparison is inappropriate and demonstrates a lack of understanding. A better comparison would be to nodes in a wireless network...

[TrashMan]

Blasted forum ate my reply...gggrrr...short verison then:

Heh... I'd have put it a century later. It would give more leeway for introducing cool stuff. In terms of storyline, and gadgetry.

I'd rather have it closer to today than in the far future. Makes it appear more real. Besides future is awfully hard to predict.

... the power would come from normal body functions!
Put it this way, the virus wants to replicate. It does this. How? It has no power source stored within itself - it uses the bodys own power source to achieve its aims, by subjugating the cellular machinery. The whole DNA as the central code for the processor thing.

Likewise... the power for whatever... new function we observe, be it moving an apple with your brain or transmitting faxes from your left eye... could come from the same idea. Some enzyme cascade happens. ATP gets used up. The power isn't the issue. The issue is ---- how the heck is the action realized? How do you send a fax out your eye when your eye can't send signals. That is the true crux of what you're grappling with -- how, if there's no mechanism for effecting telepathy anywhere on the viral particle, can it communicate with... (err what was your issue with it again? communicating with the host, or with other viral particles?)

Power is always an issue. After all, to lift that rock telekineticly, you have to generate lift and apply it at a distance.

And transmitting signals wouldn't be easy. As it stands, your average cellphone emmits more/stronger EM field/radiation than your brain.

I guess it really depends on how well the code within the virus is written, right? If its an incredibly complex code, that needs a capsid, say 10 times the size of a normal virus -- then it's vaguely plausible that the virus (once it is transcribed into the host cell) becomes sentient, once its in your cells.

The virus is just too small and choatic for that to work. Ther's no way a virus can be sentiant. There's no way it can act like a brain.

Viruses move around the body. The neurons stay where they are. Neurons and big and struictured. Viruses are small and simple.

So perhaps rather than a sentient virus, a virus that codes for receptivity in the host to external control via a certain signal. Sort of like a backdoor entry (no pun intended) into the host...

That's what I've been advocating. A virus that makes you succeptable to PSI suggestion.

[geisthund]

Power is always an issue. After all, to lift that rock telekineticly, you have to generate lift and apply it at a distance.

And transmitting signals wouldn't be easy. As it stands, your average cellphone emits more/stronger EM field/radiation than your brain.

With the former - for sure. But if you also think about it, you are a walking battery. Should there be a way to effect "telepathy" (telekenesis is just ridiculous, since there's no effector) through some obtuse pheremonal signal / however hive insects do it - but that made you burn 2000 cal and left you spent due to inefficiency of the process... that would be somewhat understandable, no? After all I have enough energy in me to run 12 miles...

The virus is just too small and choatic for that to work. Ther's no way a virus can be sentiant. There's no way it can act like a brain.

Viruses move around the body. The neurons stay where they are. Neurons and big and struictured. Viruses are small and simple.

Yes, the virus in itself acting as a neuronal network is not logical.
However if the virus were to infect cells adjacent to each other, if could potentially perform rudimentary cell-cell interactions. This is, loosely, potential for a network of communication, although it would not be efficient enough to produce thought.

If it were to infect your brain... then it is entirely possible for it to acquire sentience. Some worms wind up in the brain predictably as part of their life cycle, so this isn't inconceivable

But the virus particles being sentient in themselves is kinda silly, unless they have some radical wireless transmitter feature which lets them network with each other (silly) or else encode for some bizarre new organelle which IS a brain. A brain at that size probably wouldn't be too useful though. Alternatively they could encode for a change in cell type (by gene switching) or recruitment of stem cells to result in you effectively growing a new brain somewhere else, and taking over control that way. Perhaps in your spinal cord?

[TrashMan]

If it were to infect your brain... then it is entirely possible for it to acquire sentience. Some worms wind up in the brain predictably as part of their life cycle, so this isn't inconceivable

But the virus isn't the one to aquire sentiencve. The brain does all the thinking.
Adn those parasitic worms operate on antoher principle. In the example of the one that infects snails, they infect the brain to make the snail unafraid and drop all caution, so it will be eaten by a bird, and thus get the parasite into the bird.

[geisthund]

devious... turning snails into daredevils.

well the virus could encode for a.... err... well while I'm busy stretching reality... how about it encodes for a protein that disinhibits a pathway in your brain that evolution has shut down, that turns your brain back into its default, "preprogrammed" state -- which is completely foreign to normal human thought - ie alien. This messes the whole backstory up though -- it would mean that we are the aliens, except that we've diverged evolutionarily.

you're right. it's actually a lot more convenient to say the virus makes you grow an organ which renders you vulnerable to psionic control and assimilation. it's also a lot friendlier on the audience.

[TrashMan]

I don't think ti's necessary for it to grow a new organ. Alterin the brain chemistry/structure should be a sufficient explanation, especially if psi/telepathy mechanics remain unexplained (and it's best they don't).