General > Discussion
Storyline suggestion
TrashMan:
--- Quote from: geisthund on May 04, 2012, 06:21:46 am ---Heh. No but seriously - telepathy is only "magical" and slightly frightening because it's unknown. There's no science behind it, and we can't see how it works (unlike, say, gravity)
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily. Either it has SOME grounding in science, or it is purely magical, and it being purely magical doesn't fit with the rest of the game. Like for example, the basics of conservation of energy. Where doese the power come from? Does ti have range? If so, then it emits some kind of signal or another. How do the individual viruses interact with eachother?
For one, naurons are larger and more complex than viruses, and are interconnected. The brain is a single, complex structure with fixed pathways.
Viruses aren't connected. A virus moves around. It's a simple construct and it's hard to believe it could be able to generate any signal at all (and it would have to).
You're opening a whoel cna of wormd, tons of question with no answers. Unnecessarily.
Comparing a virus to a neuron is apples and oranges.
--- Quote ---When the hordes of humans under viral control start appearing armed with everything from machine guns to dinner forks... well I know I'd be affected. :)
--- End quote ---
Agreed. But it's not necessary for the virus to be sentient for that to work.
--- Quote ---Its the same effect psionics had on us when we played Xcom. It was scary (and then when we harnessed it for ourselves, kind of fun)
--- End quote ---
So why not tak a lesson from X-Com and do it like it did?
Nutter:
Come to think of it, a bacterial infection might've been a better idea. It probably got tagged as a 'virus' because it sounds cooler.
Depending on who you ask, due to their distinct lack of metabolic functions viruses even count as 'living', for fucks sake!
geisthund:
--- Quote ---Not necessarily. Either it has SOME grounding in science, or it is purely magical, and it being purely magical doesn't fit with the rest of the game.
--- End quote ---
that was precisely my point. The boundaries of "purely magical" shift once you gain a scientific understanding. What you don't understand now, and consider purely magical (telepathy) becomes less disturbing once a scientific explanation is found (my imaginary construct of rapid pheremonal transmission, to explain the observation of communication "through the air")
Consider also that to someone from victorian england, most of what happens today is magic -- air travel would appear to break the laws of physics to them. Magic, most foul.
Of course if you're going to stay stuck in the present, with a 2012 understanding of science and refuse to suspend disbelief for an instant... then sure, it's ludicrous to suggest that things will be different in 2084, and telepathy is patently absurd.
If anything, I was surprised when I first played the game that the conventional weapons looked so... ordinary. I'd have expected more developments in 2084 - gauss technology. linear accelerators. mini nuclear power packs. etc. Hell even high-efficiency solar rechargeable laser rifles that almost never run out of juice, given enough turns to recharge...
--- Quote --- Like for example, the basics of conservation of energy. Where doese the power come from? Does ti have range? If so, then it emits some kind of signal or another. How do the individual viruses interact with eachother?
--- End quote ---
You do realize that when dealing with biological systems, the power ultimately comes from the sun?
I would assume that the "power" for the viruses to communicate comes from biochemical pathways.
Even a virus (a conventional one) is "powered" - phages have to change configuration to inject their DNA into cells. It takes power to replicate DNA and assemble new viral particles. The new viral particles result in the cell rupturing - this takes power too. Some viruses exocystose and leave the cell intact. This takes power too. Is this magic? Or is it the viruses harnessing the "power" of the host?
Does it have range? Some kind of signal? are you talking about within the body between viral particles, or without, between individual human beings. If the latter, pheremones could be the signal.
If the former, there are all sorts of chemical messengers within cells. G proteins and enzymes form a cascade of intracellular communication. Between cells adjacent to each other there can be electrical junctions, and communication could be electrical. These are called gap junctions. The body does this all the time. It's how your heart cells communicate with each other so that your heart contracts synchronously, for instance.
Between cells at more remote locations hormones act as messenger molecules. When they reach their target cells, they bind to cell surface receptors and effect changes through second messenger systems.
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/moaction/surface.html
--- Quote ---For one, neurons are larger and more complex than viruses, and are interconnected. The brain is a single, complex structure with fixed pathways.
--- End quote ---
that last is debatable. The brain comprises many anatomical structures, some postulated to be older in terms of evolution than others - your cerebellar cortex, for instance. The neuronal pathways are not fixed in children - children exhibit a fair amount of plasticity. If you destroy pathways in kids they are able to rewire up functions using alternative pathways. Most of your brain will never be used (umm not yours in particular... just human brains) -- many of the potential pathways are wasted. In adults the plasticity falls off with age.
--- Quote ---Viruses aren't connected. A virus moves around. It's a simple construct and it's hard to believe it could be able to generate any signal at all (and it would have to).
--- End quote ---
I can believe that they could generate signals if they exploited the hosts signalling pathways. It just takes for me to suspend skepticism for an instant.
Bacterial cells aren't connected. Bacteria move around. They are unicellular constructs.
Yet when they congregate they form biofilms. The bacteria at the base of the biofilms switch on different genes to the ones on top. They effectively start behaving as a single entity, with different roles. They ARE communicating with each other - it's just that we don't know how exactly. Bacteria at the bottom concentrate on sticking. Bacteria on top concentrate on breaking away. All for the greater good.
We don' see this in present day viruses. But the proposed virus in this case is sentient -- so... maybe they're behaving like bacteria?
--- Quote ---You're opening a whoel cna of wormd, tons of question with no answers. Unnecessarily.
Comparing a virus to a neuron is apples and oranges.
--- End quote ---
Actually, you made the comparison to neurons. :\
I was writing about Stephen King's book, Cellular. It's well worth the read.
Viruses and neurons are completely different. Neurons are specialized tissue types. Viruses are isolated particles without cellular structure.
The can of worms doesn't come from comparing them - it comes from trying to predict how viruses would communicate with each other. And as you can see - there's plenty of ways for them to do it. Some viruses even LIVE in neurons. (HSV)
Maybe they could exploit interneuronal communication to "talk" to each other...
TrashMan:
--- Quote from: geisthund on May 04, 2012, 02:31:14 pm ---Consider also that to someone from victorian england, most of what happens today is magic -- air travel would appear to break the laws of physics to them. Magic, most foul.
--- End quote ---
Once you have a scientific methoid and a basic understanding of physics, those kinds of things dwindle.
Today we know some of the most basic laws of the universe - conservation fo energy, thermodynamics, etc..
--- Quote ---Of course if you're going to stay stuck in the present, with a 2012 understanding of science and refuse to suspend disbelief for an instant... then sure, it's ludicrous to suggest that things will be different in 2084, and telepathy is patently absurd.
--- End quote ---
Telpeathy (as it is commonly portrayed) is and allways will be absurd without any grounding in science. HOWEVER, since this is a sci-fi setting, it's one of those acceptable breaks from reality. And since you are breaking away from reality, you might at least try to make it sound not-so-unreal. OR avoid explaining in detail alltogether.
For example - "telepathy" as an organ/part of brain that works like a radio, transmitting and recieving data between memebers of the same species. That is scientificly plusible. But it isn't the telepathy we're talking about (inter-species, mind-meling, mind-controling, telekinesys and stuff)
--- Quote ---If anything, I was surprised when I first played the game that the conventional weapons looked so... ordinary. I'd have expected more developments in 2084 - gauss technology. linear accelerators. mini nuclear power packs. etc. Hell even high-efficiency solar rechargeable laser rifles that almost never run out of juice, given enough turns to recharge...
--- End quote ---
Frankly, I'd dump the whole storyline in a different time period.. Closer to today.. 202o-30. MAAAAAYBE 2050.
Easy to mod tough - just change a few dates.
--- Quote ---I would assume that the "power" for the viruses to communicate comes from biochemical pathways.
Even a virus (a conventional one) is "powered" - phages have to change configuration to inject their DNA into cells. It takes power to replicate DNA and assemble new viral particles. The new viral particles result in the cell rupturing - this takes power too. Some viruses exocystose and leave the cell intact. This takes power too. Is this magic? Or is it the viruses harnessing the "power" of the host?
--- End quote ---
No, but that's normaly body functions. What about telepathy/telekinesys? Where does that power come from?
More importantly, transmitting any "mind signal" takes power too. It takes a specialized transmitter and reciever (on both ends) for telepathy to work. And both of those inside a virus?
--- Quote ---Does it have range? Some kind of signal? are you talking about within the body between viral particles, or without, between individual human beings. If the latter, pheremones could be the signal.
--- End quote ---
Pheromons are too dman slow and limited.
And to defeat that kind of mind control, all you'd need would be a large fan. Not very indimitating, is it?
--- Quote ---We don' see this in present day viruses. But the proposed virus in this case is sentient -- so... maybe they're behaving like bacteria?
--- End quote ---
It doens't have the size or complexity of a bacteria.
A sentient virus is jsut....too idiotic for words.
--- Quote ---Actually, you made the comparison to neurons. :\
--- End quote ---
No, other poeple did.
Individual virus elements were compared to neurons.
geisthund:
--- Quote ---Once you have a scientific methoid and a basic understanding of physics, those kinds of things dwindle.
Today we know some of the most basic laws of the universe - conservation fo energy, thermodynamics, etc..
--- End quote ---
yeah we're on the same page.
--- Quote ---Telpeathy (as it is commonly portrayed) is and allways will be absurd without any grounding in science. HOWEVER, since this is a sci-fi setting, it's one of those acceptable breaks from reality. And since you are breaking away from reality, you might at least try to make it sound not-so-unreal. OR avoid explaining in detail alltogether.
--- End quote ---
Agreed on that last.
--- Quote ---For example - "telepathy" as an organ/part of brain that works like a radio, transmitting and recieving data between memebers of the same species. That is scientificly plusible. But it isn't the telepathy we're talking about (inter-species, mind-meling, mind-controling, telekinesys and stuff)
--- End quote ---
Oh. It's not? Oops.
Yes, arguing that the brain is in itself an extracorporeal transmitter and actuator is just plain stupid and violates physics. But well, maybe it's the source of the signal that is effected by an actuator.
Such as, I think - I want this orange. My hand reaches out (actuator) and grabs the orange.
--- Quote ---Frankly, I'd dump the whole storyline in a different time period.. Closer to today.. 202o-30. MAAAAAYBE 2050.
Easy to mod tough - just change a few dates.
--- End quote ---
Heh... I'd have put it a century later. It would give more leeway for introducing cool stuff. In terms of storyline, and gadgetry.
--- Quote ---No, but that's normaly body functions. What about telepathy/telekinesys? Where does that power come from?
More importantly, transmitting any "mind signal" takes power too. It takes a specialized transmitter and reciever (on both ends) for telepathy to work. And both of those inside a virus?
--- End quote ---
... the power would come from normal body functions!
Put it this way, the virus wants to replicate. It does this. How? It has no power source stored within itself - it uses the bodys own power source to achieve its aims, by subjugating the cellular machinery. The whole DNA as the central code for the processor thing.
Likewise... the power for whatever... new function we observe, be it moving an apple with your brain or transmitting faxes from your left eye... could come from the same idea. Some enzyme cascade happens. ATP gets used up. The power isn't the issue. The issue is ---- how the heck is the action realized? How do you send a fax out your eye when your eye can't send signals. That is the true crux of what you're grappling with -- how, if there's no mechanism for effecting telepathy anywhere on the viral particle, can it communicate with... (err what was your issue with it again? communicating with the host, or with other viral particles?)
--- Quote ---Pheromons are too dman slow and limited.
And to defeat that kind of mind control, all you'd need would be a large fan. Not very indimitating, is it?
--- End quote ---
Wouldn't that be cool? The ultimate shield against psionics is... a fan. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I do't think they would necessarily be slow. They just wouldn't be instantaneous. Do you need "mind control" to happen acutely, or would insiduousness be better? I rather think the latter... make you think you're still in control, when in effect you're slowly swaying towards another decision without knowing why.
--- Quote ---It doens't have the size or complexity of a bacteria.
A sentient virus is jsut....too idiotic for words.
--- End quote ---
I guess it really depends on how well the code within the virus is written, right? If its an incredibly complex code, that needs a capsid, say 10 times the size of a normal virus -- then it's vaguely plausible that the virus (once it is transcribed into the host cell) becomes sentient, once its in your cells.
The problem I have with that is... it won't remember a damn thing. Memories are not encoded in cells.
So perhaps rather than a sentient virus, a virus that codes for receptivity in the host to external control via a certain signal. Sort of like a backdoor entry (no pun intended) into the host...
--- Quote ---No, other poeple did.
Individual virus elements were compared to neurons.
--- End quote ---
Ah. didn't know about that.
Yes the comparison is inappropriate and demonstrates a lack of understanding. A better comparison would be to nodes in a wireless network...
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