New Bloodspider Model

[Crystan]

Good News Everyone!

I asked a Friend (Makaber) if he could create us a new Bloodspider model and he accepted:

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/9712/bloodspider1.png

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6374/bloodspider2.png

Bloodspider_1 is a bit more true to the old model. But for him it looks more like a bug and less like a spider. So Bloodspider_2 resembles a spider alot more.

Personally i prefer the first one.

[H-Hour]

I think the models look nice. I'm not sure they're a significant enough improvement over the current model to be worth the effort (it must be skinned AND animated). That said, a good texture can make all the difference so if he wants to skin it up I'd be interested in seeing what it looks like then.

For the record, I really like the second one better and I think the larger fangs are really nice. But I miss having a well-defined head on his models (which the old model had).

Also, it's his choice, but in my opinion the spheres on the head could be done in the texture without any real loss in-game. The player would have to look very closely to notice the extra polys, especially when our models begin to support normalmapping (or do they already?), and putting the eyes into the texture would prevent getting the sharp angles where the eyes meet the head.

By all means, if your friend is willing to model, I would love to have him doing some work. As long as he can texture some too, because at the moment we just don't have anyone to do that for him (I don't really have the time anymore).

[MCR]

Good news, Crystan. 

I like both of them. One could be an advanced version...
So why not have 2 different bloodspider models, with one being a better armored v2 version of it, like a bloodspider with light armor ?

Yes, the engine supports model normalmapping already, although with sometimes quite a bit strange results

Do not forget that we need frame based (not skeleton based) animations for those and the currently only 100% supported 3d format with animations in UFO:AI is .md2.

Maybe you should copy our model folder for your friend (especially models/soldiers and models/aliens as those are our animated models) so he can see how the engine handles everything best...

Our current bloodspider model has an invisible head attached to it (a minicube), but it would be best if the head could be seperated, for detail views...
Also our engine supports 3 LoDs, regarding the polycount.

[Kildor]

Second one is more close to storyline. Since main goal of bloodspider is collecting the blood, it need some sort of reservoirs to store collected and possible to process. May be it even should have even more voluminous tank.

So, my vote is for second version.

Also, about technical things — we need wait mattn, since I remember some sort of skeleton animations in some models.

[Bartleby]

i like both and think it would be a very good idea to use both. like MCR said - the 2nd one is the more advanced one (maybe with one attack-type more). great work.

btw.: where ist FWishbringer?

[Destructavator]

Regarding the animation thing:  It isn't an issue at all when creating the model - The modeler can, in their modeling software, use either manual vertex animation or a skeleton when creating the model and it's animations, no problem at all there, as long as they have a proper MD2 exporter.  An example is the python MD2 exporter for the old Blender, which automatically converts any animations created by a skeleton in the modeling program into vertex MD2 animations when exporting.

Back when I was making models and animating them for this project (in Blender) that's exactly what I did - I used a skeleton inside Blender for rigging and setting the animations and poses, and when I hit the MD2 export button the computer would convert everything, with the resulting MD2 having vertex animation.  The skeleton was only a "helper" tool, only inside the modeling program but not carried over into the game at all.

So as long as a properly written exporter is available, it doesn't matter how the modeler creates the animations inside the modeling program.  Does this make sense?

[Crystan]

Well he can animate it so this isnt a issue but not skin it. As Destructavator allready mentioned he needs a exporter for the new Blender but sadly he havnt managed to find one yet. Maybe its possible to export it as a "normal model" (md3, mdl.. whatever) and import it back into Blender 2.4 and then export it as md2?

[MCR]

There is a brand-new md3 exporter for Blender 2.58 available.

I tested it and it is working, but I have tested to export only static models yet:

http://xembie.com/2010/md3-exporter/

It should work with animated models, also. In the worst case we can just export the keyframes and rebuild the animation in another program capable of md2 support (like mm3d).

If we got the model in md3 we can convert it to md2 easily, as there were problems with md3s in-game recently, but maybe Mattn has managed to eliminate those already, he would have to answer that...

Also it would be nice, if he could bake a normalmap in Blender and provide that also (especially for the low detail LoD model).

Making a nice diffuse texture for the model should not be the biggest problem once we have the animated model and a UVmap of it.

[Destructavator]

There is a brand-new md3 exporter for Blender 2.58 available.

I tested it and it is working, but I have tested to export only static models yet:

http://xembie.com/2010/md3-exporter/

It should work with animated models, also. In the worst case we can just export the keyframes and rebuild the animation in another program capable of md2 support (like mm3d).

If we got the model in md3 we can convert it to md2 easily, as there were problems with md3s in-game recently, but maybe Mattn has managed to eliminate those already, he would have to answer that...

Also it would be nice, if he could bake a normalmap in Blender and provide that also (especially for the low detail LoD model).

Making a nice diffuse texture for the model should not be the biggest problem once we have the animated model and a UVmap of it.

YES!  About time someone wrote an exporter for something at least close to what we usually use for UFO AI!

MCR, you deserve a pat on the back, thanks for finding that.   

As far as issues with loading MD3 models in-game, I don't know how functional that is at the moment myself, but if it does have problems I'm sure they'll be fixable.  I do a lot of work with some other 3D graphics engines and SDKs outside of UFO AI, mostly open-source, and one of them has its own MD2 and MD3 loaders that could be used as a guide (comparing code) if our own MD3 loader for this project happens to be broken.  I don't necessarily mean copying code direct or anything, but it could be good as a general reference if we get stuck getting our own MD3 loader to work.  (The 3rd party SDK I'm talking about is in C++, so we couldn't just copy code anyways, although it is capable of loading models for OpenGL as well as use with SDL, which if I'm not mistaken is close to what UFO AI uses.)

On the other hand, if our own MD3 loader works fine, then we won't shouldn't have any problem, and we can *finally* get Blender-made stuff into this project again.

[Makaber]

Hello everyone

Thank you for liking the model.

Well I have some notes & questions.

Also, it's his choice, but in my opinion the spheres on the head could be done in the texture without any real loss in-game. The player would have to look very closely to notice the extra polys, especially when our models begin to support normalmapping (or do they already?), and putting the eyes into the texture would prevent getting the sharp angles where the eyes meet the head.

I also thought that normal maps would be good enough, but I didn't know if the game supports them or not, so I just put them there.
There is no problem for me to create a normal map.

Our current bloodspider model has an invisible head attached to it (a minicube), but it would be best if the head could be seperated, for detail views...
Also our engine supports 3 LoDs, regarding the polycount.

For what reason does the head needs to be seperated? And I don't get the "for detail views".

There shouldn't be a problem on creating LoDs, but are they necessary? Crystan told me the current polycount would be good for distance. But on the other hand there isn't much to improve on the model through more polygons.

Because MD3 file format needs to have tris for polys and no quads the new polycounts are 1060 for the small and 1260 for the big one. Booth counted without the eyes (as they will be removed).
I don't know how much the engine is cabaple off, but maybe I should create lower poly LoDs given this new fact.
So are there any recommended values for the LoDs?

Can someone give me a list which animations are needed/wished and the frame length?
I've take a look at the current model and to what I can see there is walk, attack and two death animations.
But maybe there are also new wishes for animations, or maybe I overlooked something?


As for using booth, Crystan linked me some articles in the wiki and I read about a combat bloodspider.
I would say that the big one would be the weak one which carries blood and organs, and the small one would be the combat, because it doesn't need the blood collecting stuff and is more agile.

[MCR]

I also thought that normal maps would be good enough, but I didn't know if the game supports them or not, so I just put them there.
There is no problem for me to create a normal map.

Please do not forget that it needs to have the height encoded into the alpha channel for parallax mapping in UFO:AI working correctly.
Currently model normalmapping has some minor issues in-game though, but I am quite sure those will get fixed soon...

For what reason does the head needs to be seperated? And I don't get the "for detail views".

All our actor models have their heads seperated from the body, the head not being animated.
If you start a Skirmish game you can see only the heads in the soldiers' selection - the current bloodspider model shows its cube (lol) here (the invisible small cube attached to the main model).

There shouldn't be a problem on creating LoDs, but are they necessary? Crystan told me the current polycount would be good for distance. But on the other hand there isn't much to improve on the model through more polygons.

No, creating those is not necessary. In fact your model would be the first to use this possibility. But the possibility and theoretical functionality to support 3 LoDs is already integrated in UFO:AI and is planned to be used for future models...

Because MD3 file format needs to have tris for polys and no quads the new polycounts are 1060 for the small and 1260 for the big one. Booth counted without the eyes (as they will be removed).
I don't know how much the engine is cabaple off, but maybe I should create lower poly LoDs given this new fact.
So are there any recommended values for the LoDs?

Around 1000-1500 tris is quite perfect for actors like the bloodspider.
You have to judge yourself which values would make sense for the LoDs.
I would suggest one version with less (for very distant views) and another with more tris (500 and 3000 for example)...

Can someone give me a list which animations are needed/wished and the frame length?
I've take a look at the current model and to what I can see there is walk, attack and two death animations.
But maybe there are also new wishes for animations, or maybe I overlooked something?

Sorry, I cannot. But I would like to see several different death animations, maybe also different methods of attack (currently bs is using 2 attack methods, but just 1 anim iirc), eventually run and maybe some equivalent to crouching would also be nice.
Maybe someone else has more suggestions here...
You can take a look at the .anim files in base/models/soldiers/male (txt files) to see how the engine determines which animation to use.


The number of frames for md2s is limited: 512
The number of frames for md3s is limited also: 1024

As for using booth, Crystan linked me some articles in the wiki and I read about a combat bloodspider.
I would say that the big one would be the weak one which carries blood and organs, and the small one would be the combat, because it doesn't need the blood collecting stuff and is more agile.

This is a very good idea.

I am looking forward to seeing your model in action...

P.S.: Welcome to the forums

[geever]

Can someone give me a list which animations are needed/wished and the frame length?
I've take a look at the current model and to what I can see there is walk, attack and two death animations.
But maybe there are also new wishes for animations, or maybe I overlooked something?

Here is our wiki about character animations. You're probably interested in other modeling articles around it too. Welcome!

-geever

[Makaber]

I have taken a look at the animation wiki and also the current .anm file

I'm not really familiar with the game so bare me if I make some stupid questions.

There are some animations I don't really know what they are meant for.

stand_menu - some idle animation in a menu?
stand_still - used ingame? but what is move_* used for? only for holding an item?
panic0 - I guess some state, does the bloodspider panic?

MCR mentioned two attack types, but there is only shoot_melee available, so what should I take for the second attack? shoot_item?

Is there really a need for crouch? I don't see how the spider would benefit from it. I could implement it, but there isn't much room for the spider to crouch, so it may be that it's not really visible in the game.
If crouch is needed. What are the animations for changing between stand and crouched?

Am I completely free to choose the framelenght for the animation as long as I stay under total of 512?


About the head, does the head model get automatically attached to the model?
And as it seems the only the head model will be displayed in some cases.
Well I could make a head model which shows only the "head" of the spider and maybe a fancy animation. But this would only work as long as it doesn't get attached to the model ingame.


Which size should the spider (the big one) be in blender units? 
If the importer does it right the old model would be 12 unity long and 12 units wide.
Is this the size of a square ingame?

[H-Hour]

Hi Makaber, thanks for contributing. I can only answer a couple questions:

panic0: yes, there is a morale system in the game and aliens can panic. I'm not sure what a bloodspider panicking is supposed to look like, but the more humanoid aliens go into a crouch and cover their heads (I think). Maybe you can come up with something. The important thing is that a player should be able to learn the difference between a normal stance and a panic stance (I realize this might not be easy with a spider).

mattn will be able to say for sure about the crouch issues, but from an art perspective, a bloodspider does not need to crouch or stand or change between the two. It may be that for technical reasons we still need these frames to be "occupied", but the bloodspider wouldn't actually need to move during these frames.

About the head: most of our models have separate bodies and heads. The head is attached to the body in the game through a "tag" that is placed in the models.

[Makaber]

Oh well, seems the tag script is only working with older blender versions.
So someone probably needs to add the tags later on.
Someone needs to funky around with the model anyways to convert it to MD2, so I guess that is a minor problem, right?

But should I make a head model which can be used as avatar and just leave the ingame model without tag?