General > Discussion

New to UFOAI have some questions / critisisms / suggestions

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BTAxis:
Problem is, there's no real way of telling which firemodes use recoil and which don't.

Edi:
I'd rather move it more toward the old system in that reaction fire TU reservation would be multiples of 6, 7 or 8 and the RF would trigger after a maximum of that much delay had passed, but possibly earlier if the soldier succeeds in some reaction checks (using perhaps a combo of mind and speed?).

In any case if there is to be a delay system, it needs to use a lot less than full TUs for firing a weapon.
In RF mode, the soldier is basically scanning an area and once something shows its head, blow it off.

Normal fire on the other hand is
1) moving to wherever
2) spotting something
3) getting into firing position
4) aiming
5) firing

which does justify a lot more TUs required. In RF, steps 1 and 3 are already eliminated and those two are the ones that take by far the most time. I know this from experience in the army.

Brasher:
Once again, I effing LOVE this game and I'm only voicing this because it's the ONLY thing I've found unenjoyable, you guys have done outstanding in all other aspects that I've seen so far, thanks!... BUT...

You guys are making this simple system way too complicated.  In old X-COM games, it was designed with this in mind: both you and the enemy's turn was happening at the "same time", like a span of 10 seconds of combat (when both have moved their turns it completed 1 round).  Reaction fire was made perfectly and logicaly.  It was based on the soldier's reserved TUs vs the enemy's TUs with strength, stamina, and reaction being the modifiers for what took place.  The soldier's reaction stat (quickness) determined how well he responded to a threat first coming into view.  If he had 90 TU reserved he could make 3 snap shots costing 30 TU each in RF.  If an enemy came into view with 91 TUs and the exact same stats, he would not be able to fire yet as it is not in that time frame during the turn. If it popped into view with 90 or lower the soldier would make his first snap shot based on his own accuracy (unlike what i've noticed in UFO AI's system, I have had soldiers and aliens that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn turn into dead-eyes repeatedly in RF).  If the target survived or was missed, it could move to safety or return fire until it's TUs exceeded the soldier's next RF shot (60 TUs); in which he would snap off another.
On that same note, if the enemy came into the soldier's peripheral at 90 TUs, the soldier had to turn 45 degrees to face it , and the enemy's current path would be interupted with the opportunity to respond.  The soldier's Reserved TU's were deducted 1 point for the turn causing him not to have enough to pop off 3 shots (bringing him to 89 TUs reserved), and he could not shoot until the enemy made another move unless his reactions exceeded the target's.

If an enemy came into sight with 30 or less TUs, the soldier was able to wrap off all 3 shots or save the remainder if the first 1 or 2 killed it.  Again, the hit chance percentage was calculated as if you made that exact same shot on YOUR turn, the soldier didn't become a sniping-god-from-hell just because it was "YAY reaction fire time!"  If he had a short range weap, or couldn't aim for spit, it was best not to put him in that situation.  There were times when an enemy was "dug in" on reaction fire and you were forced to find other means of dealing with the problem.  That added excitment, so slap what ever whiner it was who swayed you from doing it like this and please fix it, it's broken hardcore.

Unfortunately, in UFO AI, I have stopped bothering with RF as it is absolutely illogical and worthless.  I've had many an alien waltz across wide open football-sized fields in front of my best troops lined up like a fireing squad with full TU's and varrying weapons, and not have one of them do anything more than smile and wave as it shoots at them and frollicks back to cover... yet the aliens seem to shoot at my troops (with better accuracy than if they were on their turn, almost god-like) with every step taken.  Pistols = 4 shots/steps, rifles = 2 shots/steps, and blasters = 1 shot.  I can't even begin to determine what was programmed for RF, it blows my mind as it appears to even lack consistency.  What's more is some how the alien keeps firing at its target, even if i move a soldier that is in a completely different part of the map.  Its like that alien just fired full-auto with a pistol on my soldier the split second it decided to engage RF... it makes no sense.  You've created a complicated in-game time paradox lol.  To combat this crap I've been hearing about waiting the full TU's to shoot what ever weapon is being carried because it "takes time to check target, aim, and fire, well it's the SAME CONCEPT for rounding a corner on YOUR OWN TURN and taking a shot.  Why should my troop's reactions be better when its on my turn?  TU's are supposed to represent "how much the character can perform in a set amount of time", and the factors governing the actions being taken should apply equally to both sides turns. But, the game is still playable if you modify your tactics to not rely RF for any reason, so if you decide to keep it like it is, oh well.  It just drastically reduces the strategic parameters of the tactical gameplay.

Gantoris:

--- Quote from: BTAxis on June 13, 2010, 01:13:26 am ---Alright, so basically the whole system that delays a soldier's shot by the TUs necessary to use the firemode needs to go, if I've understood the above correctly.

I don't think shots should be instantaneous, though. There should be SOME delay that prevents soldiers from taking shots at enemies that are only briefly visible (e.g. only for one step before vanishing again). Ideas?

--- End quote ---

My whole problem is that RF needs to be reliable, if i set soldiers up covering a doorway or corner i need to know that the area is covered and the aliens cant just waltz around it without challenge. There are many squad based games like UFO you can draw inspiration from and as Brasher pointed out the system in the original was just fine but if you want an original idea ill quote myself from earlier in the thread...


--- Quote from: Gantoris on June 08, 2010, 04:14:01 am ---I think the TUs of the victim shouldn't even be a factor, what im gonna propose is basically your soldier goes into RF mode and readies his gun looking down the sights. This action will tighten his field of vision considerably, more so for scoped weapons such as sniper rifles, and any enemy walking into his field of vision becomes a target for RF which should be reliable. If people still think RF setting of immediately is to powerful then perhaps have a % chance of it procing very low when the victim enters LoS but rising very fast for every action taken say 10% when he enters LoS 25% if he takes a second step still in LoS 50% for a 3rd step 80% for a 4th and 100% for the 5th. This would give someone walking around a corner and encountering an enemy a chance to quickly duck back behind cover before being cut to pieces, attempting to shoot at someone set up ready with RF while in there LoS should proc it however. I think this would make it possible to not get totally cut to shreds by folks with RF but also avoid the madness of an alien walking around a corner right in front of 4 men with RF shooting 2 of them then walking away without even being attacked.

The idea that you have to use the same amount of TUs as someone set up covering an area before he will react is insane and quite obviously doesn't work, in games like this RF is the primary method of killing your opposition as it should be. Soldiers don't run and gun in real life they move into cover and shoot while there friends move into cover then shoot and vice versa. What would also be nice but probably a lot more difficult in terms of coding is taking control of the RF when it triggers and picking your target (limited to those in your direct LoS) and shot type. Any problems with certain weapons being overpowered in RF can be easily solved with tweeks and balancing of the specific weapons and there TU cost.

--- End quote ---

Something like that might just be the best of both worlds as you would have a chance to run back into cover upon stumbling on some aliens set up to fire (A visual que that someone is on RF would be nice such as them having there weapon raised ready to fire) but you could also rely on your men covering an area. The % chance to proc the RF could obviously be modified by various stats allowing someone with high speed to maybe be able to run from cover to cover past people with RF without being shot up to much. I do think you should only be able to shoot people u can directly see when you RF but i appreciate my ideas about fields of vision ect probably take a lot more coding than i can appreciate.

On an unrelated note as ive been playing further into the game there's a couple more small suggestions id like to make since a phalanx commander seems to be reading this now :P. The manufacturing system could use a little work, id like it to be similar to the research screen where u can assign your available workers to various projects running at the same time (amount of simultaneous projects could be limited to the amount of workshops in base perhaps). Also training facilities for troops/pilots (pilot stats/leveling would be great) would be great with different facilities for different stats, the idea of setting up a training base to train up fresh soldiers before moving them to your front line bases could be fun. Medical upgrades from alien tech would also be nice to speed up soldier recovery and also moar weapons! specifically in the sniper category, ive played quite far now and all my guys have got nice upgraded plasma type shenanigans to shoot with but the snipers are stuck with the starting sniper rifle.

Battlescared:
I have not played the 2.3 dev build, so limited in what I can say, but I agree with the OP that there are plenty of solid examples of how to build a RF system that have been working since this genre was introduced, and UFO:AI indeed had a good system in 2.2 that I was more than happy with.  If that has changed, then it should be investigated to see if it's the design that is the problem, or if possibly a bug has been introduced that is breaking RF.

On the recoil issue, I don't see it for the first shot.  It's the soldiers reaction time that should determine his first shot and like the other posters here, I assume the soldier is sitting with his full allotted time ready to fire.  Something comes into view, he has a fraction of a second to determine friend or foe and then it's time to fire, and soldiers are trained to get that time to it's absolute minimum, definitely well below a second.  Recoil would affect his next shot as it would add time to how quickly he could retarget and fire.  The higher the soldiers stats, the better he would be at it.  But now you've also thrown out that FoF reaction time since he now knows what he's shooting at, so it equals out somewhat.  And what of lasers?  Rail guns?  Recoil isn't as high an issue in those systems than an explosive based weapon, so now you have to take into account the weapon.

This is overcomplicating it though.  Just be consistent, and to stay within the bounds of the current design, if I select an aimed shot, my RF time should be longer than if I tell him to snap shot the first thing that comes into view.   I don't see a need to penalize them.  Should there be an override based on how close the enemy is?  For example, he's told to take an aimed shot, but he sees the enemy across the field and the creature keeps coming at him, at some point he's going to react and let lose whether he has a good shot or not.  Maybe have RF dependent on how long the enemy has been in his sights?  Each step the enemy takes would increase the likelihood of being RF'd.  The longer it is, the higher probability that he will react.

It's true that RF can become OP, but it's not a good idea to OP the enemy either with an unrealistic god mode system where they can cross an entire field with no consequences.

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