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Author Topic: Starting troop loadout  (Read 5010 times)

Offline KillerM

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Starting troop loadout
« on: April 27, 2010, 01:59:43 pm »
I just started playing, after being a fan of the original X-COM for years.
I find it a bit difficult to get into the game, because of the lack of an easily reached manual, but mostly because the troops have a very strange loadout at the beginning.
As a former member of armed forces, I have to say that no army or paramilitary organization would ever send a company on a mission with such equipment. Specialized equipment like rocket and grenade launchers, and shotguns are rarely employed, and even if they are, they are always as a secondary weapon.
To illustrate, a standard infantry company would go out with mostly assault rifles, some modified with scopes, some with grenade launchers, and maybe one with a breaching shotgun.
If single-shot rocket launchers are available, each soldier will carry one on his back (note that this is talking about wartime where facing enemy armor is probable). If there is a reloadable rocket, one soldier will carry it with a little ammo in his pack, while another soldier carries most of the ammo. Same goes for machine guns - one carries weapon, one ammo, except machine gunners usually have it as their main weapon. A marksman will carry his rifle, which is a modified assault rifle with scope and tripod. Snipers work away from the platoon, with one soldier being the sniper and having the sniper rifle and an assault rifle or pistol for protection at close quarters. Together with the sniper is the spotter who helps find targets using binoculars, and provides short-medium range protection for the sniper and himself. Each soldier in the company is equipped with at least one hand grenade, excepting maybe those who have a grenade launcher mod on the rifle, as they need the space for launched grenades.
Submachine guns have no place in real combat. Neither does a grenadier who has grenades as a main weapon. This makes him useless at long range, and likely to blow up himself and his team at close range.
So I hope you see why I was frustrated to see a team loaded out with grenade launchers, rockets and riot shotguns, especially since in the 22nd century they should have learned some tactical lessons from the past.

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Starting troop loadout
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 09:24:00 pm »
First off, I think you have a wrong point of view. PHALANX is much more akin to SWAT team than to militaries. Go in quickly, deal with the situation quickly, get out quickly; which is very different from the long wars, where the ground forces stay long times at hostile territory.
Also, the range is different. AFAIK infantry attacks tend to happen in ranges of over 100 meters, which is why they have rifles of different types. PHALANX tends to engage in shorter ranges, where shotguns and high rpm, easy-to-move submachineguns work better. Sometimes PHALANX does engage in longer ranges, so they do have assault rifles and light machine guns (if you want, imagine them more as large ARs with higher capacity magazines) in their armory.

From my understanding, grenade launchers and rocket launchers are in because they are about the only things that reliably take down the bastards, aside from the flamer and a very liberal application of bullets (sniper rifle is an exception, vehicles are not implemented yet and balancing is still WIP).

It's not 22nd century (2100-2200 right?) but 2080s.

PS. If you happened to complain more about the initial, computer suggested weaponry, it's a computer, it's recommendations can get very weird on occasion.

Offline Edi

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Re: Starting troop loadout
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 02:52:16 pm »
Hertzila covered all the main points, but to add to what he said:

A lot of Phalanx operations are urban assault type and close quarters indoors fighting. Assault shotguns are excellent for that purpose and would be included in the mix in a situation like that. Same for SMGs. We actually trained to use those types of weapons in building assault exercises in the army (Finland has conscription).

The second things is that the computer is absolutely crap at picking a proper troop loadout. First thing to do when you start a game is go buy combat armor and medikit for everyone, then stripping away all weapons from everyone and reassigning the existing equipment based on skills. I've always sold the bazooka and its ammo first thing, because you get a lot of funds for more reasonable weapons that way.

Of the secondary weapons, the only ones I bother with are the 7.62 pistols, because everything else is either too bulky, too short range, too ineffective or all of the above. The SMG is good for short range against unarmored aliens, but it got permanently ditched from my equipment list when one of my soldiers emptied two full automatic blasts into an alien with light armor at point blank range and did absolutely no damage. The thing wasn't even fazed and took two shots from a heavier weapon to actually die. It nearly wiped out half my squad with grenades in the meanwhile.



Offline KillerM

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Re: Starting troop loadout
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 09:44:52 am »
If the computer is so bad at making the right allocations, perhaps it is wise to remove this feature, and have a basic setup that each player will start with. This will make it less frustrating to first time players to actually start playing.
In regard to the urban assault / close quarters fighting, I think PHALANX should function more like modern anti-terror units. These units usually use shortened versions of assault rifles, so that the rifle barrel will not impede movement inside buildings. These rifles are equipped with mods such as red dot sights for quick aiming, and under-barrel additions such as a grenade launcher or a shotgun. Thus, these units have the ability to fight at ranges from point blank to medium range, something which is impossible when equipped with an RPG or a shotgun. Also, assault rifles have great stopping power, unlike SMGs which use handgun calibers.

Offline Hertzila

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Re: Starting troop loadout
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 11:35:30 am »
If the computer is so bad at making the right allocations, perhaps it is wise to remove this feature, and have a basic setup that each player will start with. This will make it less frustrating to first time players to actually start playing.

It's actually fairly good at what it's job is, picking a weapon for your agent based on his skills. However, it doesn't understand crap about tactics and optimum squad layout, so it will cheerfully give you three rocket launcher guys and two grenade launcher guys without ever giving a second thought about how they would perform in combat.
I think that instead of disabling it, someone could/should tweak it's code a bit to give it maximum amounts for certain weapons it can give to you. This way it can't give you more than one RL, for example.

In regard to the urban assault / close quarters fighting, I think PHALANX should function more like modern anti-terror units. These units usually use shortened versions of assault rifles, so that the rifle barrel will not impede movement inside buildings. These rifles are equipped with mods such as red dot sights for quick aiming, and under-barrel additions such as a grenade launcher or a shotgun. Thus, these units have the ability to fight at ranges from point blank to medium range, something which is impossible when equipped with an RPG or a shotgun. Also, assault rifles have great stopping power, unlike SMGs which use handgun calibers.

From my understanding, the AR used by PHALANX is a short assault rifle (carbine?). I don't know how short because it isn't mentioned but usually modern bullpup weapons seem to be short(er than non-bullpups).

I don't remember if modding weapons was decidedly not included or if nobody simply hasn't coded them yet.

The main shotgun round they have is designed for accuracy, so it negates some of the range issue.

Offline Edi

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Re: Starting troop loadout
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 06:39:25 pm »
Another thing that I noticed is that the equipment you get at the beginning is somewhat random. I've had a variable number of rocket launchers and ammo for example. It may have something to do with the starting troop skills, if the AI buys equipment also based on that.