General > Discussion

What is the mission?

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EsbenMoseHansen:
After playing UFO:AI I realized what I thought was missing in XCom too. Each battlefield scenario needs a mission, for both sides. E.g, the terror mission could be:

Humans
1. Drive off aliens
2. Avoid civilian loses
3. Cause alien casualties
4. Capture enemy ship and technology

Aliens
1. Don't get the ship and/or technology captured
2. Maximize civilian casualties
3. Maximize human soldier casualties

With this in mind, it makes sense for the aliens to pick off the easy civilian targets, then fall back to the ship and take off.

In concrete game terms, this means that the alien should, in general try to fall back to the ship. When all aliens are either dead or aboard the ship, the ship should take off (mission ends). This could be refined, but it is the general idea. This will
1. Make mission much more interesting... playing safe is fine in the beginning, but later when you want the ships, aggressiveness is needed!
2. Increase credibility... why would the aliens hang around getting killed at 8:5 or worse odds? Why not take off if they start to take a beating, or even better, before?

Other variations include:
* The aliens could leave a huge bomb
* The aliens could attempt to abduct civilians,
* The humans could attempt to steal the ship by killing the pilot(s)
* The humans could try to abush the ufo by intercepting the ufo after takeoff
* The aliens could try to make a trap, starting with a normal terror assault, but then calling in extra ships. The humans, realizing this would be better off falling back and regroup.
* In a similar vein, multiple terror attacks make sense, if alien resources allow.

In game terms, what would be needed is:

1. Take off capability in planes (a simple option "Take off" available in special spaces would do
2. The AI teams should have strategic goals and modes, and act to follow them
2a. Attack. Used on base raids and similar. Aliens advance slowly and "coordinated", trying to kill as many soldiers as possible.
2b. Fall back. Go towards am area (ship), defending/shooting as the opportunity presents itself
3b. Flee. Running as fast as possible towards area. Soldiers already at the area provide covering fire.

Should be easy enough, no? :)

Northen_Wolf:

--- Quote ---1. Don't get the ship and/or technology captured
--- End quote ---

Kinda weird... as they come to kill civil. They don't expect to get counter attacked and if they do they will try to fight with us



--- Quote ---With this in mind, it makes sense for the aliens to pick off the easy civilian targets
--- End quote ---

That would make game TOO hard cuz civilians are easy to hit... and they should try to shoot your mens in are instead of guys who are no danger to them


--- Quote ---then fall back to the ship and take off.
--- End quote ---

Many players (x-com players) are used to advance slowly(ME!), if aliens make hit&runs its gonna be difficult, as aliens can just get out of ship couple of turns and then retreat... theyr main purpose should be elimnate 60-80% of civilians and then fall back to ships... or when they start losing soldiers fast (moral runs low) they could just abdone some aliens.



--- Quote ---1. Make mission much more interesting... playing safe is fine in the beginning, but later when you want the ships, aggressiveness is needed!
--- End quote ---

Agressivness= lots of deaths, as most probs. ships are defended by cople of aliens. That makes rushing into the ship almost impossible as (alive on map) aliens can just outflank u. But for example killing engineer in machine room would mean that ship can't fly far and would land somewhere near the terror site to repair ship/find new engineer...


--- Quote --- 2. Increase credibility... why would the aliens hang around getting killed at 8:5 or worse odds? Why not take off if they start to take a beating, or even better, before?
--- End quote ---


many of aliens are "stupid warriors" in game, they have no(or have a little) free will. Theyr objective is to kill and destroy.  


--- Quote ---* The aliens could leave a huge bomb
--- End quote ---


c'mon leaving bomb behind? i know it sounds cool but it's kinda useless. If I would be alien i would just prep. bomb beafore attacking and then just drop the bomb from craft on the city......

 
--- Quote ---The humans could attempt to steal the ship by killing the pilot(s)
--- End quote ---

When all aliens are killed then ship belongs to us. Why should we attempt to steal the ship? Good idea btw. BUT That would require also extra pilots + engneer + knowing how to lead the ship. as most probs not all of ur soldiers can lead the ship...


--- Quote ---The aliens could try to make a trap, starting with a normal terror assault, but then calling in extra ships. The humans, realizing this would be better off falling back and regroup.
--- End quote ---


agree... that they could bring extra ships to aid (for example scouts/supplyers who are in area) theyr fellow aliens, if theyr'e under attack. Why not even puting multible ships (for example: parking on large building tops a small alien craft with 2-5 aliens getting out and craft leaving/staying(depends of craft)? Aliens who were droped to help would have no % to escape (fall back to ship) so even when main(support) ship(s) leaves humans could still get some points/tech/killed aliens and aliens killed civilians/killed soldiers/ maybe even win the mission

 
--- Quote ---2a. Attack. Used on base raids and similar. Aliens advance slowly and "coordinated", trying to kill as many soldiers as possible.
--- End quote ---


terror units (and war slave type aliens) should advance fast cuz they have only one purpose(destroy) while smart(er) aliens should duck behind objects. and yes advance more slowly or for example ending theyr moving beafore turing around the corner.

sorry for typos ain't used to type so long replayes :D

EsbenMoseHansen:

--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---1. Don't get the ship and/or technology captured
--- End quote ---

Kinda weird... as they come to kill civil. They don't expect to get counter attacked and if they do they will try to fight with us

--- End quote ---


Around the 3rd or 4th time, they should begin to expect the counter attack :p And the ship is (presumably) a valuable resource, so saving it makes a lot of sense.


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---With this in mind, it makes sense for the aliens to pick off the easy civilian targets
--- End quote ---

That would make game TOO hard cuz civilians are easy to hit... and they should try to shoot your mens in are instead of guys who are no danger to them
--- End quote ---


It would mean a change of playing style. You need to draw the aliens fire, you need to provide the covering fire and so forth. This behaviour is anyways not very different from today... the aliens seems to hit whoever is the easiest target, which seems to be the civilians 9 of of 10 (no surprise)

Also, as the aliens fall back in face of adversary (in my proposal), just advancing would protect the civilians to some degree.


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---then fall back to the ship and take off.
--- End quote ---

Many players (x-com players) are used to advance slowly(ME!), if aliens make hit&runs its gonna be difficult, as aliens can just get out of ship couple of turns and then retreat... theyr main purpose should be elimnate 60-80% of civilians and then fall back to ships... or when they start losing soldiers fast (moral runs low) they could just abdone some aliens.

--- End quote ---


Part of my goal is to change the "don't charge. Ever. Just wait them out" strategy from being the only sane choice in any situation (as it is now) to be one of several strategies, depending on your goals. New != bad :)



--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---1. Make mission much more interesting... playing safe is fine in the beginning, but later when you want the ships, aggressiveness is needed!
--- End quote ---

Agressivness= lots of deaths, as most probs. ships are defended by cople of aliens. That makes rushing into the ship almost impossible as (alive on map) aliens can just outflank u. But for example killing engineer in machine room would mean that ship can't fly far and would land somewhere near the terror site to repair ship/find new engineer...
--- End quote ---


Rushing the ship would be hard, yes, but maybe worth it in the later stages? In XCom, after you had researched most things, the game was easy, bordering on boring. All the interesting battles were in the beginning, with the later one tending to be about getting some resources (the fuel, I forget the name).  But with these changes , these missions could be a challenge again. The deaths would still be possible, but with your new, hardened soldiers with much better armour, with tanks and whatnot, this can minimized this if done intelligently.

When I thought about this, I figured on three stages:
1. Early. Appear at terror sites, Try to kill an alien or 2, but mainly, just drive the aliens off.
2. Midgame. Protect the civilians to help protect your income.
3. Late: Try to capture the UFOs. Avoid civilian casualties if possible.


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote --- 2. Increase credibility... why would the aliens hang around getting killed at 8:5 or worse odds? Why not take off if they start to take a beating, or even better, before?
--- End quote ---


many of aliens are "stupid warriors" in game, they have no(or have a little) free will. Theyr objective is to kill and destroy.  

--- End quote ---

Isn't it a tad strange that the aliens can produce ships that can go between stars, but not a soldier who can make a decent guerrilla attack? At least, I'd include a squad commander on the ship (that stays there) that could make the decision to fall back as appropriate.


--- Quote ---* The aliens could leave a huge bomb
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---c'mon leaving bomb behind? i know it sounds cool but it's kinda useless. If I would be alien i would just prep. bomb beafore attacking and then just drop the bomb from craft on the city......
--- End quote ---

I agree this is silly. I don't understand why the aliens just doesn't bomb a few major cities. Any good ideas? Maybe a mission idea? Shoot down UFO before they bomb you?


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---The humans could attempt to steal the ship by killing the pilot(s)
--- End quote ---

When all aliens are killed then ship belongs to us. Why should we attempt to steal the ship? Good idea btw. BUT That would require also extra pilots + engneer + knowing how to lead the ship. as most probs not all of ur soldiers can lead the ship...
--- End quote ---

It does rather depend on the aliens trying to get away at some point :) If all the aliens are dead, the UFO could just be towed to the nearest base. Or driving in on a truck or something.


--- Quote ---The aliens could try to make a trap, starting with a normal terror assault, but then calling in extra ships. The humans, realizing this would be better off falling back and regroup.
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---agree... that they could bring extra ships to aid (for example scouts/supplyers who are in area) theyr fellow aliens, if theyr'e under attack. Why not even puting multible ships (for example: parking on large building tops a small alien craft with 2-5 aliens getting out and craft leaving/staying(depends of craft)? Aliens who were droped to help would have no % to escape (fall back to ship) so even when main(support) ship(s) leaves humans could still get some points/tech/killed aliens and aliens killed civilians/killed soldiers/ maybe even win the mission
--- End quote ---

Sounds cool to me. Suicide backup troops sounds very alien-like to me, as the "only aliens that came with this ship are allowed back". Even sounds like a good alien strategy... 5 suicide troops attack and check the humans while we abduct this delightfully soft human over here....


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---
--- Quote ---2a. Attack. Used on base raids and similar. Aliens advance slowly and "coordinated", trying to kill as many soldiers as possible.
--- End quote ---


terror units (and war slave type aliens) should advance fast cuz they have only one purpose(destroy) while smart(er) aliens should duck behind objects. and yes advance more slowly or for example ending theyr moving beafore turing around the corner.

--- End quote ---

I think this is already part of the difficulty setting... the higher, the higher tendency to duck behind stuff. I like the idea that on the higher difficulty levels, there are no stupid aliens :)


--- Quote from: "Northen_Wolf" ---sorry for typos ain't used to type so long replayes :D
--- End quote ---

Don't worry. The best I can do is promise that all the words I've typed are correct for some English word.  Is there still any browser out there that doesn't have a as-you-type spell checker built in? My words here turn a delightful red if I mistype :)

Northen_Wolf:

--- Quote ---Around the 3rd or 4th time, they should begin to expect the counter attack :p And the ship is (presumably) a valuable resource, so saving it makes a lot of sense.
--- End quote ---


yes, but that makes it almost impossible to capture alien ship for x-com slow advancing tactics players and rookies in all x-com games. As most prob. aliens are not stupid enough to build pilot room(control room) next to exit.        Most likly u just have to kill the engineer(s) on first or second floor as they   control the ships engine. If u do there is a big % that ship can't fly awey? that kinda opion should be at least on first 5-10 missions... Also it sounds kinda weird that ur mens can escape(or fly) awey with alien UFO?


--- Quote ---It would mean a change of playing style. You need to draw the aliens fire, you need to provide the covering fire and so forth. This behaviour is anyways not very different from today... the aliens seems to hit whoever is the easiest target, which seems to be the civilians 9 of of 10 (no surprise)

Also, as the aliens fall back in face of adversary (in my proposal), just advancing would protect the civilians to some degree.

--- End quote ---


Still if aliens only shoot civilians, many first time players(of ufo:ai) will get VERY VERY low score.... IMO it(the alien attacking target) should be one of difficulty settings thingy...


--- Quote ---Part of my goal is to change the "don't charge. Ever. Just wait them out" strategy from being the only sane choice in any situation (as it is now) to be one of several strategies, depending on your goals. New != bad Smile
--- End quote ---

 True reaction shooters are the problem still the misson can't be: rush, rush, rush, soldier died, rush.... aso. There should be enough time to reach to ufo(and conquer it) by advancing enough slowly.  


--- Quote ---Around the 3rd or 4th time, they should begin to expect the counter attack :p And the ship is (presumably) a valuable resource, so saving it makes a lot of sense.
--- End quote ---

True, but again it's no fun to play few(good) turns and then see that UFO just escapes.....


--- Quote ---It would mean a change of playing style. You need to draw the aliens fire, you need to provide the covering fire and so forth. This behaviour is anyways not very different from today... the aliens seems to hit whoever is the easiest target, which seems to be the civilians 9 of of 10 (no surprise)

Also, as the aliens fall back in face of adversary (in my proposal), just advancing would protect the civilians to some degree.
--- End quote ---


1.That would require higer AI for civilians as they (least in x-com) had no idea what do to.
2. just advancing with small squad is NOT a simple thing...
3. good idea but then aliens should try to fight against u for a while cuz ITS no fun when ship only escapes where ever u do better....


--- Quote ---
Rushing the ship would be hard, yes, but maybe worth it in the later stages? In XCom, after you had researched most things, the game was easy, bordering on boring. All the interesting battles were in the beginning, with the later one tending to be about getting some resources (the fuel, I forget the name). But with these changes , these missions could be a challenge again. The deaths would still be possible, but with your new, hardened soldiers with much better armour, with tanks and whatnot, this can minimized this if done intelligently.
--- End quote ---


Fuel was in x-com ufo elerium and 3 number 118 maybe? in tftd something with Z

yes again i tell u they should be leaving ASAP. at least in first missions...


--- Quote ---1. Early. Appear at terror sites, Try to kill an alien or 2, but mainly, just drive the aliens off.
--- End quote ---


actually first alien should be weak and stupid so u could kill 'em or scare them all.


--- Quote ---2. Midgame. Protect the civilians to help protect your income.
--- End quote ---

 
yeah that sounds good... but aliens should leave faster and more often leaving cople of suiciders behind?


--- Quote ---3. Late: Try to capture the UFOs. Avoid civilian casualties if possible.
--- End quote ---


Yeah aliens but up a terrible fight, use terror units, kill and ?plunder? like fire....  Aliens ships more defended. Killing only engineers in machin room si not enough u must kill least some aliens in control room and some in other rooms? (back up engineers?)

 And How about then inside ufo fight mission? For example:
U killed aroudn 3 out of 12 aliens in town 3 aliens retreated to ufo while 6 were left behind in ufo there is/are also around 6 aliens?
   U managed to get inside ufo with 4 mens out of ur 10. Ufo escaped. U get opions A) Let the units in ufo capture ufo or B)let them escape with parachute?.

if u choose A) u must kill 6 alive aliens on ground (or escape from city)
And then u get mission on board of flying ufo. Ur mission is to disable ufo or elimnate all units in ufo. If u manage do to that ufo slowly crash lands(thx to the alien anti crash ssytem or something?). To escape u must bring ur mens near exits of ufo and let them parachute out?

if u manage to do that u get the ufo

IF us choose B) ur mens will appear outside of UFO and u continue fight on gorund with all mens?


--- Quote ---Isn't it a tad strange that the aliens can produce ships that can go between stars, but not a soldier who can make a decent guerrilla attack? At least, I'd include a squad commander on the ship (that stays there) that could make the decision to fall back as appropriate.
--- End quote ---


well werent one alien type only a battling slave(produced in breeding pits)? so they should be pretty stupid...
   Squad commander eh? how about when u kill enough aliens he (commander) gives command to retreat . If u kill mroe aliens he will panic and give command to flee?  thats where the onboard mission comes in play?


--- Quote ---I agree this is silly. I don't understand why the aliens just doesn't bomb a few major cities. Any good ideas? Maybe a mission idea? Shoot down UFO before they bomb you?
--- End quote ---


Most likly aliens thec. has no bombs, they only got super beam weapons.
aliens and human are not the same... They can be even plants actually...
but why don't they shoot citys with onboard cannons? I have no idea...


--- Quote ---It does rather depend on the aliens trying to get away at some point Smile If all the aliens are dead, the UFO could just be towed to the nearest base. Or driving in on a truck or something.

--- End quote ---


If all aliens are dead the UFO is towed to nearest base by military, so its not a problem of phalanx..... weird.... should there come like aliens ship recapture mission? (aliens drop few units to recapture ship) u have to choises leave the ship and hope that military manages to win or help 'em. Military units would have weak weapons and around 45-60% %to win. If u decide to help them u can see military units around UFO to helping u with cover fire?


--- Quote ---Sounds cool to me. Suicide backup troops sounds very alien-like to me, as the "only aliens that came with this ship are allowed back". Even sounds like a good alien strategy... 5 suicide troops attack and check the humans while we abduct this delightfully soft human over here....

--- End quote ---


actually they are not ment as suiciders they are ment as alien support (back-up) force. The smaller ships for example land on top of buildings (that have stairs to get down) and try to get down or snipe from windows? if they see that the mission is failing and they all are alive they can flee. BUT if even one of them is dead they can't as there is not enough mens to lead the ufo. Also yeah mens who are droped by ufo are back-up(suiciders) and they will try to leave with the main ufo.
    Then it could trigger landing mission if main ufo escapes it needs to give some mens back too other ufo as it has not enough alien support systems for that many aliens....
Also its less likely that aliens come to big cityes to steal civilians. Most prob they come for certain VIP (for example president or gas company director or why not the school headmaster(my luckyest day :D)? or to kill civs cuz they need the goverment pacts...



--- Quote ---I think this is already part of the difficulty setting... the higher, the higher tendency to duck behind stuff. I like the idea that on the higher difficulty levels, there are no stupid aliens Smile
--- End quote ---

me too!!!!!


--- Quote ---
Don't worry. The best I can do is promise that all the words I've typed are correct for some English word. Is there still any browser out there that doesn't have a as-you-type spell checker built in? My words here turn a delightful red if I mistype
--- End quote ---


Is "tad" a english word? and i use firefox but i don't have many extra thingys dld...

also I think that I am weird but i haven't actually played UFO:ai cuz my SLOW, SLOWER, SLOWEST ............... internet..... once i get better one i will try to dl it :D I know i am a weirdo AND I LOVE IT!
so sorry if i make any mistakes about the ai of game.... LOL

Bandobras:

--- Quote from: "EsbenMoseHansen" ---Part of my goal is to change the "don't charge. Ever. Just wait them out"

--- End quote ---


I agree, camping should be en effective tactics only in some missions (and it should be left for the player to discover in which ones). Anything that defeats camping is worth a try.


--- Quote ---Rushing the ship would be hard, yes, but maybe worth it in the later stages?
--- End quote ---


A good idea, but on most maps the ship, if any, is small... So perhaps we would first need some more big maps with big ships... And then only apply this to these maps (and only acquire ship techs in such missions).


--- Quote ---But with these changes , these missions could be a challenge again. The deaths would still be possible, but with your new, hardened soldiers with much better armour [...]
--- End quote ---


Yes, with better armor you are more likely to flee (when you see your armor is almost spent) than die, and rather heal for some time in the base than die permanently.


--- Quote ---When I thought about this, I figured on three stages:
1. Early. Appear at terror sites, Try to kill an alien or 2, but mainly, just drive the aliens off.
2. Midgame. Protect the civilians to help protect your income.
3. Late: Try to capture the UFOs. Avoid civilian casualties if possible.

--- End quote ---


A very nice idea (not the exact sketched plan, but the general idea). This is one more, very interesting, way of building the player power more steadily throughout the game. No more: 1st mission --- you are helpless; 2nd mission --- you have enough alien artifacts to equip 3 squads, just wait a month to research 2 techs. :) And a nice way to vary game stages and so make late-game missions interesting.

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