What's a good 2.2.1. squad loadout?

[Ildamos]

And depending on the mission, i play 'cheat' with saving a game before launching the soldiers, check out the map to be loaded, and well, load appropriately before sending.

Hence if i meet a long range map, open field and stuff, i still have my 6 sniper-man squad. lol. (Call that field scouting intelligence............. Tongue)

Fixed now in 2.3 where an intel about the battlemap shows before you send in your team, a feature I found oddly missing in the earlier versions (if PHALANX were that advanced, how come they don't have intel?). That's solved now though.

[odie]

Fixed now in 2.3 where an intel about the battlemap shows before you send in your team, a feature I found oddly missing in the earlier versions (if PHALANX were that advanced, how come they don't have intel?). That's solved now though.

Intel.... ? Ildamos, which revision are u using?

Intel as in the 'briefing screen'? Hehe.....

[MITSGS John]

I prefer to go with a pair of four-man elements built around a heavy weapon (usually a machine gun) and containing one sniper and two long weapons. As a matter of personal taste I won't use SMGs because in my opinion they are vastly over-powered. I'm also biased towards protecting civilians and force preservation and I'm not a big fan of just blowin' stuff up, so I stay away from flame throwers and indiscriminate grenade volleys. Putting all of your medikits in one basket is just asking for Rifleman Basket to get shot dead, so everyone carries one in John's Army.

Of course things would be a bit different if Standing and Kneeling were augmented by my two personal favorite battlefield postures; Prone ("I can't get no lower, my buttons are in the way!") and In A Hole.

[homunculus]

just a few hundred years ago, afaik, soldiers would dress up nicely, stand in a row facing each other, and shoot each other dead with muskets.
no crawling in the mud.

i like it that you cannot crawl on the ground, you are agents after all, not some kind of dirty soldiers who will do anything to avoid the results of technological progress (e: just noticed that i should clarify that i didn't mean that soldiers are stagnant, i meant that modern weapons are too powerful).

btw, flamers are very good imho
1) they are reliable -- when they hit they kill, guaranteed for just 12 time units.
2) they have low time units attacks, and maybe i am imagining it, but i think it might be good for reaction fire.

[odie]

just a few hundred years ago, afaik, soldiers would dress up nicely, stand in a row facing each other, and shoot each other dead with muskets.
no crawling in the mud.

That is so out of point and out of date with modern warfare, let alone advanced modern warfare..... Esp the no prone.... lol

Which brings me to.....

i like it that you cannot crawl on the ground, you are agents after all, not some kind of dirty soldiers who will do anything to avoid the results of technological progress (e: just noticed that i should clarify that i didn't mean that soldiers are stagnant, i meant that modern weapons are too powerful).

Being unable to prone is a stupid thing. Why? Just to name a couple:

1) U expose a larger target (yourself and your body) to the enemy. Higher risk.
2) Lower stability in firing of weapon (obviously u probably did not have real firearms experience. Lowering your CG will result in more stability of yourself, more support - probably arms rested on floor, better breathing and more focus.)

btw, flamers are very good imho
1) they are reliable -- when they hit they kill, guaranteed for just 12 time units.
2) they have low time units attacks, and maybe i am imagining it, but i think it might be good for reaction fire.

Well, Perhaps this is because they are meant to kill (even in real life), but then again, balancing in this game has not yet been addressed (not the focal point as of now.....).

And fyi, in real combat situation, flamethrower is always an assault wpn, never a reaction fire wpn (not assault / sniper wpn). They are bulky, and slow to react, and EXTREMELY dangerous in close combat, cos, u might end up burning yourself (AND YOUR MATES) in enclosed situation.....

In fact, for balancing's sake, the TU i am suggesting should be upped for flamethrower....... (i know that UFOAI's FT is like a M16 weapon, but still, its meant to be bulkier..... how could we fire a FT like an assault weapon? lol. Then again, like i say, balancing's not done, so dun take this as a complaint.)

[homunculus]

i didn't say i liked that there is no prone position in ufo-ai because of practical, but rather because of aesthetical considerations (just a personal weirdo thing).

yeah, it makes sense to remove reaction fire from flamethrower.
no reaction fire means that those guys will be running around alot (because i don't bother with switching to sidearm at end of turn).
then my flamethrower guy, as far as i understand the future (at least from the point of view of 2.2.1) stat increase system, will become a very fast runner and shooter, like the grenade launcher guys.

[odie]

i didn't say i liked that there is no prone position in ufo-ai because of practical, but rather because of aesthetical considerations (just a personal weirdo thing).

yeah, it makes sense to remove reaction fire from flamethrower.
no reaction fire means that those guys will be running around alot (because i don't bother with switching to sidearm at end of turn).
then my flamethrower guy, as far as i understand the future (at least from the point of view of 2.2.1) stat increase system, will become a very fast runner and shooter, like the grenade launcher guys.

On your asthetical reasons, haha. Quite interesting perceptions u have.

And on the flamethrower, exactly what i mean. How can a flamethrower 'react' haha. It will kill tons of ppl yes, but on the fratricide. But i believe that this might mean potential coding..... hence i will not be pushing it unless one of the coders decide to be hardworking on this. Haha. They have better things to code at moment.

And last on the stats system, i asked BTAxis (the original suggestor for the change of the XP system) in a separate thread on this b4.... yet to get verified on the changes. But yar, according to 2.2.1, it seemed like he will become fast runner good shooter in tat sense.....

Maybe later after, he can become a 'heavy wpn specialist' by changing to machine gun?

[homunculus]

[...]Maybe later after, he can become a 'heavy wpn specialist' by changing to machine gun?

yeah, but i rather thought about trying heavy particle beam which so much time units that the weapon is practically unusable (and i know, balancing not done).
when you shoot with that weapon, you can barely move with a normal soldier.

there were many who have said flamer is bad and suicide weapon, just notice what range you usually have when you have set up the snipers and are going to kill in the buildings.
the designers probably thought it that way, and i think it works nicely.

btw i am not a die-hard flamer fan, i am using a mix like 2 snipers, 2 grenade launchers, 2 flamers and 2 whatever.
flamers even in late game.
btw for melee i think stun rod is very nice imho, i like it more than monomolecular knife.

anyway, i have some gameplay concerns about the futuristic stat system, i guess it's better if i post them there although the speed issue would be bit offtopic there atm.

[MITSGS John]

My aesthetic problem with flamethrowers comes from the fact that throughout their period of battlefield use, flamethrowers were primarily bunker-busters. In an enclosed area the targets who weren't roasted would be asphyxiated as the flame used up all of the available oxygen. In the open flamethrower operators tended to die horribly when the weapon malfunctioned (and it blew up) or a tracer round hit the tank (and it blew up) or whatever.

[homunculus]

yeah, what we would need is an aerodynamics model.

a fairly simple one would do, based on very simple units that have some inertia and try to keep their volume (i guess about soldier head sized would be enough for ufo-ai purposes).
just the whole empty space in the battle map would be filled with those, and some hot looking compressed ones would come out of the flamethrower.

that would solve multiple problems, actually.
for example, when there are obstacles to the gas from gas grenades and smoke from smoke grenades the gas and smoke might spread more realistically.
we could have wind effect on gas and smoke as well.

that would be awesome, and the devs wouldn't even need to make some hyper-complicated mumbo-jumbo on the maps to determine if the flamethrower was used indoors enough to produce some... stun effect perhaps?

the only problem might be that the 3d engine they are using might not support it.

[odie]

My aesthetic problem with flamethrowers comes from the fact that throughout their period of battlefield use, flamethrowers were primarily bunker-busters. In an enclosed area the targets who weren't roasted would be asphyxiated as the flame used up all of the available oxygen. In the open flamethrower operators tended to die horribly when the weapon malfunctioned (and it blew up) or a tracer round hit the tank (and it blew up) or whatever.

Hmmm, abt the blowing up part - thats in WW 1 and 2. I believed that our current 2080 model is uber good le. So dun worry abt tat.

And yupz, on the bunker buster part, i agree..... its supposed to burn + kill oxygen and asphyxiate all victims..... BUt i guess in this game, we can possible have one firing into a bunker thru a window and 'magically fill' the whole room with fire.... Though this would be uber cool and really IMHO, super unbalance the game. Lol.

Btw, U should NEVER use a flamer in the open. Omg, that would equate to a suicide....... He should always be hidden / running from cover to cover and WELL PROTECTED by at least a sniper and a assault team of 1 or 2. The point is to cover this bad boy ass until he gets to objective and deliver that INSANE damage.

[Megakiller]

we can possible have one firing into a bunker thru a window and 'magically fill' the whole room with fire.... Though this would be uber cool and really IMHO, super unbalance the game. Lol.

that's why aliens need flamethrowers

[Zukn]

 Lol after experiencing the bug in 2.2.1 where aliens get rocket launchers and sniper rifles I humbly submit they never get flamers. In 2.2.1 the aliens always know where you are and snipe very efficently.
 Personaly I found my flamers are always in the wrong space when the squad deploys. I don't use them. In 2.2.1 I use atleast 2 smg and 1 assault the rest rotate depending on who is injured. Weapon load isn't key in 2.2.1 exploiting the the AI is. 2.3 is a different beast.

[Vio]

I love my flamethrower guy.
There is always a building that needs cleaning up, and the range is long enough to work well even in less cramped spaces.
But most of all, it's the reliability. He is usually on the front line right next to the Redshirt, and there it's important to know that if I make him spend his last TUs to run up to and fire at an enemy, he will kill him. Nothing is worse than an unlucky miss in such a situation.

@Zukn
Lol. So giving the alines outdated human weapons actually makes them stronger.
But you are right. Especially with the indestructible walls, there is little they can do agains Phalanx hiding behind corners if they don't use more stuff like Grenades and Rockets. Heck, they don't even use reaction fire most of the time. Instead they hide behind their own corners and wait for your grenades (or worse: run out into the open if they don't see anyone).
Also love the nade launcher btw.

[Megakiller]

lol, how about we improve AI based on the atopsy discription? for example, a Taman would be smarter than an alien football player Ontrok